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Old 12-31-2017, 06:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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As stated above, "Kitless" can be ambiguous to allow some parts/components from another kit or no parts/components from a kit.

Here is an older link that describes the subject:
Opinions wanted - When is a pen considered to be, "Kitless"?

On ball points/roller balls, if a transmission is used, that generally has been acceptable in most cases. But capped bp/rb are without transmissions and are kitless. Buying individual components such as what you mentioned for fountain pens is / has been totally acceptable.

One can buy components such as clips and bp/rb nibs in different configurations and metals, and build their own pen. Technically these would not be from a "kit".

It seems like about a year or so ago, there was a description for slimline kitless contest here, if I remember correctly, and it was primarily made around the transmission only. But I could have dreamed that.
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:48 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodster Will View Post
Bock sections are very nice but irritatingly have non standard threads for no other reason than they can. Bit pointless to my mind as Bock don’t seem to make taps.
As far as I know Bock has their own taps.
In the US:
https://www.classicnib.com/feeds-and-taps/taps-detail

UK:
Thread taps for Bock nibs

Germany:
Starbond Europa
Yes, I know non standard taps are available for these parts but my point is that they’re not made by Bock so why bother? They’re just giving business to tap makers.
I should add that I have a metal lathe so I’d make my own taps if I needed them rather than spending £25 - £30 for a tap.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:53 PM   #13 (permalink)
 
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As far as I know all the nib brands have proprietary threads for the feeds (Bock, Jowo & Schmidt) so a tap is needed. I suppose because they supply to many of the big manufacturers they assume the buyer will have threading capabilities or mould the threads into their Precious Resins. ;) Pretty much all the manufacturers have proprietary threads for their section to body, body to cap, and any other parts of their brand. If they did supply the tap I'm sure they wouldn't be cheap. Heck even the Bock made sections have a nonstandard thread of 8.5M x 1.

If you don't want to pay for aftermarket taps from the nib sellers you could get in on the group buy being put together on Facebook right now or figure out the size and possibly taper used to press fit the nib and feed into the housing and do that in your sections and don't bother with the housing at all.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:55 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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You could also glue in the section, carefully.


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Old 12-31-2017, 09:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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To the OP question my answer is WHO CARES??? Call it whatever you want. I would call them custom made. If you are worried about the contests let those people decide what is kitless and not and have them call out the rules in black and white. Do not know about any of the specifics so leave that to others.
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:28 AM   #16 (permalink)
 
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Skiprats mesh pen on the front page is a true kitless pen if you dont consider the refill (which was manufactured ) .
The word "Kitless" only has meaning to other pen turners/pen makers, most people don't know that most pens that are made by us use a kit of parts to make them .
Things like nibs/feeds and transmissions are not easily made by most of us so can be used in a kitless pen . Clips are another part that can be used on a kitless pen . Any other kit parts used make it a modified kit pen .
Other parts don't have to come from a kit but can be sourced from vendors like click mechanisms and RB sections . You can also source parts from other prebuilt pens and still be considered kitless by us .
Here is an example of a kitless Hooded nib fountain pen that uses a nib/feed from a manufactured pen and an ink sack assembly from a fountain pen repair store .


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In the end , it only matters to us .... if even then .
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:51 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
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I beats me why this topic is so emotive. There are no pen police out there telling us what we can and cannot make our pens from or with - and no disrespect whatsoever is intended by my comments to anyone here.

Unless you have years of finely honed technique and skills, along with some seriously specialist gear, almost everyone is going to struggle to make their own nib, feed, and housing. So that's the first component that has to be bought in. Without similarly honed skills to make an eyedropper pen or a piston filler, you're going to need an ink converter too, or a piston filler mechanism, or at the very least some ink cartridges, so that's the second item. Another area you may need help with is the clip - not so hard to cut a clip from sheet metal, but the nicer clips are moulded, not pressed or cut, so perhaps a third component to buy as well.

So already, there are two, possibly three components that you have not made yourself. Are people going to turn their noises up and get sniffy because not absolutely everything was made from first principles? Undoubtedly some people will, yes, but does it matter? Not one bit!

Be true to yourself, that's the key. If you want to make a pen and every element of it from scratch, then go ahead. If you want to make parts of it yourself, but buy in some of the components, then go ahead. If you can't be bothered or don't have the skills to make your own section, then buy one in. If you only want to make the barrels yourself, then go ahead and buy a kit. Do what YOU want to do, not what other people say is allowed or not allowed. It's your pen making journey, not theirs, and you are entitled to do it however you please, without being made to feel inadequate or a cheat.

To put it in perspective, who can name any of the commercially available pen makes that actually make their own nibs. That's rhetorical by the way, but the answer is extremely few. We ourselves supply clips to at least 5 fairly well known small to medium scale commercial pen manufacturers around the globe, and quite a few less well known ones. If those things are good enough for commercial names, then, well, you know where this thought is going.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:22 AM   #18 (permalink)
 
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IMO (and only IMO) If the question "what kit was this made from" cannot be answered the pen is a kitless pen.
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Old 01-09-2018, 08:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Why are some people emotive about this? Well, it's like listening to cooks talk about how "boxed" cakes aren't real cakes! (And I agree on the flavor part.)

Seriously, for some, it is the idea that "I made one, I made one". It is a thrill to be able to make one totally or partially from "scratch," as the saying goes. Of course, a few people use that term to deride kit builders, which is in itself thoughtless.
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