Kitless Pen Question

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beck3906

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When is a kitless pen considered kitless? I know the nib is purchased, but what abut the feed? Does buying a section, feed and nib (Considered a triple) allow the pen to be kitless?

Do we have to make our own section for the pen to be more custom-made?

The reason I ask is that group buys often include taps for the bock and Jowo units. Trying to understand if this qualifies for what some folks may feel is completely custom.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
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PatrickR

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Ive been on here less than a year and have seen the same question come up several times. Do a search and you'll find a lot of info. Some have strong feelings on the subject. Me, not so much.
 

beck3906

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And I've been around a number of years and seen the various questions related to kitless. The problem with searches is getting the right words to search on to limit the number of messages returned. Searching for the work "kitless" returned 3193 responses meaning I didn't have the time to read each subject to determine of it had applicability to my question.
 

More4dan

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I've seen kitless pens made using the triple you've described as well as a complete front section. Many will also use a purchased clip. I call it a kitless when I make a pen without a kit. No brass tubes or pressed in parts. Everything else is just degrees of "kitless". The more you make yourself the more impressed I am.


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Woodster Will

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Buying half the components then calling it a kitless Pen is inaccurate to say the least.
The only time I think it's fair to call a pen kitless is to buy a ballpoint refill and then make the rest. I personally think the word custom is much more applicable than kitless but I know some will disagree.

The pen I made here:

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f13/my-first-cigar-pen-150351/

Is very much a custom pen but I'd never call it a kitless because I used several kit parts to make it.
 

Curly

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Actually Rick a triple is a nib, feed and a housing that holds them. The Bock and Jowo taps fit the thread that holds the housing in the section you make. You can buy sections that originate from kits like the El Grande/Churchill that "Custom" makers would turn their nose up at, or you can get a section from a Parker, Lamy, Pilot etc., and be respected. :confused: You can also buy sections from Schmidt or Bock to make your custom pens from that would let you make a more budget friendly custom pen. Follow whatever you want to do to get to a pens you like to make. Most custom fountain pen buyers would prefer not to have kit sections but if you only make pens with your own sections, sooner or later someone will want you to make a custom pen with a section from a commercial pen.
 

Woodster Will

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Bock sections are very nice but irritatingly have non standard threads for no other reason than they can. Bit pointless to my mind as Bock don't seem to make taps.
 

mredburn

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its difficult to define kitless because we dont have a strict definition enforced by a regulatory body. Kitless does not have to be Rollerball or Fountain pen it can be any style of pen. Its just the most commonly made kitless pens are Rollerball or FP. We have several makers of Cigar and Slim line pens that dont use anything but the transmissions.
Can we agree that if you make a pen from a set of component manufactured parts, using all those parts its a "Kit" made Pen.
If you eliminate one or two of the parts or replace them with parts you made your self it could be considered a Modified kit made pen.
Then we get to the pen that is made with only a couple of kit supplied parts. Maybe a clip and the front section or nose cone. Does that become "Kitless" or a Heavily Modified Kit?
What if all you used were the tubes and ink delivery system and made all the normally supplied hardware yourself? Isnt that kitless?

It really comes down to where you personally want to draw the line and how minute the details become in making that judgement.
 

mredburn

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There are taps available for both the #5 and #6 Bock feeds. Classicnib.com carries them as well as the Nibs, feeds and housings.
 
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leehljp

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As stated above, "Kitless" can be ambiguous to allow some parts/components from another kit or no parts/components from a kit.

Here is an older link that describes the subject:
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/opinions-wanted-when-pen-considered-kitless-50955/

On ball points/roller balls, if a transmission is used, that generally has been acceptable in most cases. But capped bp/rb are without transmissions and are kitless. Buying individual components such as what you mentioned for fountain pens is / has been totally acceptable.

One can buy components such as clips and bp/rb nibs in different configurations and metals, and build their own pen. Technically these would not be from a "kit".

It seems like about a year or so ago, there was a description for slimline kitless contest here, if I remember correctly, and it was primarily made around the transmission only. But I could have dreamed that. :rolleyes::wink:
 
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Woodster Will

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Bock sections are very nice but irritatingly have non standard threads for no other reason than they can. Bit pointless to my mind as Bock don't seem to make taps.

As far as I know Bock has their own taps.
In the US:
https://www.classicnib.com/feeds-and-taps/taps-detail

UK:
Thread taps for Bock nibs

Germany:
Starbond Europa

Yes, I know non standard taps are available for these parts but my point is that they're not made by Bock so why bother? They're just giving business to tap makers.
I should add that I have a metal lathe so I'd make my own taps if I needed them rather than spending £25 - £30 for a tap.
 

Curly

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As far as I know all the nib brands have proprietary threads for the feeds (Bock, Jowo & Schmidt) so a tap is needed. I suppose because they supply to many of the big manufacturers they assume the buyer will have threading capabilities or mould the threads into their Precious Resins. ;) Pretty much all the manufacturers have proprietary threads for their section to body, body to cap, and any other parts of their brand. If they did supply the tap I'm sure they wouldn't be cheap. Heck even the Bock made sections have a nonstandard thread of 8.5M x 1.

If you don't want to pay for aftermarket taps from the nib sellers you could get in on the group buy being put together on Facebook right now or figure out the size and possibly taper used to press fit the nib and feed into the housing and do that in your sections and don't bother with the housing at all.
 

jttheclockman

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To the OP question my answer is WHO CARES??? Call it whatever you want. I would call them custom made. If you are worried about the contests let those people decide what is kitless and not and have them call out the rules in black and white. Do not know about any of the specifics so leave that to others.
 

ldb2000

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Skiprats mesh pen on the front page is a true kitless pen if you dont consider the refill (which was manufactured ) .
The word "Kitless" only has meaning to other pen turners/pen makers, most people don't know that most pens that are made by us use a kit of parts to make them .
Things like nibs/feeds and transmissions are not easily made by most of us so can be used in a kitless pen . Clips are another part that can be used on a kitless pen . Any other kit parts used make it a modified kit pen .
Other parts don't have to come from a kit but can be sourced from vendors like click mechanisms and RB sections . You can also source parts from other prebuilt pens and still be considered kitless by us .
Here is an example of a kitless Hooded nib fountain pen that uses a nib/feed from a manufactured pen and an ink sack assembly from a fountain pen repair store .


View in Gallery

In the end , it only matters to us .... if even then .
 

Phil Dart

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I beats me why this topic is so emotive. There are no pen police out there telling us what we can and cannot make our pens from or with - and no disrespect whatsoever is intended by my comments to anyone here.

Unless you have years of finely honed technique and skills, along with some seriously specialist gear, almost everyone is going to struggle to make their own nib, feed, and housing. So that's the first component that has to be bought in. Without similarly honed skills to make an eyedropper pen or a piston filler, you're going to need an ink converter too, or a piston filler mechanism, or at the very least some ink cartridges, so that's the second item. Another area you may need help with is the clip - not so hard to cut a clip from sheet metal, but the nicer clips are moulded, not pressed or cut, so perhaps a third component to buy as well.

So already, there are two, possibly three components that you have not made yourself. Are people going to turn their noises up and get sniffy because not absolutely everything was made from first principles? Undoubtedly some people will, yes, but does it matter? Not one bit!

Be true to yourself, that's the key. If you want to make a pen and every element of it from scratch, then go ahead. If you want to make parts of it yourself, but buy in some of the components, then go ahead. If you can't be bothered or don't have the skills to make your own section, then buy one in. If you only want to make the barrels yourself, then go ahead and buy a kit. Do what YOU want to do, not what other people say is allowed or not allowed. It's your pen making journey, not theirs, and you are entitled to do it however you please, without being made to feel inadequate or a cheat.

To put it in perspective, who can name any of the commercially available pen makes that actually make their own nibs. That's rhetorical by the way, but the answer is extremely few. We ourselves supply clips to at least 5 fairly well known small to medium scale commercial pen manufacturers around the globe, and quite a few less well known ones. If those things are good enough for commercial names, then, well, you know where this thought is going.
 
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frank123

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IMO (and only IMO) If the question "what kit was this made from" cannot be answered the pen is a kitless pen.
 

leehljp

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Why are some people emotive about this? Well, it's like listening to cooks talk about how "boxed" cakes aren't real cakes! (And I agree on the flavor part.)

Seriously, for some, it is the idea that "I made one, I made one". It is a thrill to be able to make one totally or partially from "scratch," as the saying goes. Of course, a few people use that term to deride kit builders, which is in itself thoughtless.
 
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