Inventors in free enterprise

[low_48]

I'm not an economic major, just curious about how it has worked for inventors over the years. I recently enjoyed a show on The National Geographic Channel on the Wright Brothers versus Glen Curtiss. The patent battles between them actually slowed the early development of aviation. The stress of the battle of the law suits was suggested to be a contributing factor in the early death of one of the Wright Bros. But what I didn't catch in the show, was that the Wright Brothers were not the first inventors of the aileron. There was a British inventor that designed it, and an American inventor with previous work as well. But they fought with tooth and nail to back "their patents"! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers_patent_war

I also believe it's generally understood that many of Edison's inventions were not original thought. He took other's ideas and patents, then made changes or bought those patents from poor inventors, and made practical products. I once watched a video he made where he electrocuted a live elephant to show how dangerous AC power was, compared to "his" safe DC electricity! Brutal marketing plan!

So examples in history show these kind of battles over inventions and marketing have gone on for a long time. I can't imagine that an inventor today would ever consider for a minute, that their work would not be copied. It's generally considered a fact that you do your development, get the product on the market, and make the money while you can. Do the right marketing, and keep creative, and you may just keep the majority of customer base. But it's just a matter of time until you will be knocked off, if the market is there. One of the points that confuses me about the off center jig, is that there is a large enough market out there that would support a knockoff. Maybe it shows that a better job of marketing will develop that market? It's nice that people are loyal to the developer and the retail sales agent, so they have done their job to develop customer loyalty. But posting about some darned company (or person) that knocked off a product you like, is going to be a part time job!

 

[Dan Masshardt]

In this little turning community, what we perceive to be ethics seem just as important to us as following the law.

My opinion is that exact cloning stinks, where advancement / evolution / options in a product category is a good thing.

If one person 'invents' a particular jig and another person recognizes that a jig to accomplish that purpose is indeed helpful, they have every right to continue to pursue that end and even observe the others that have gone before.

When a product expands to more and/or different functionality, the maker of the previous one can either rest and see what happens or be pushed to evolve even more and we all win.

This is happening with turning tools, chucks, lathes etc.

Forward movement.

Copying does nothing good except for possibly lowering the price and or the quality.

 

[low_48]

In this little turning community, what we perceive to be ethics seem just as important to us as following the law.

My opinion is that exact cloning stinks, where advancement / evolution / options in a product category is a good thing.

If one person 'invents' a particular jig and another person recognizes that a jig to accomplish that purpose is indeed helpful, they have every right to continue to pursue that end and even observe the others that have gone before.

When a product expands to more and/or different functionality, the maker of the previous one can either rest and see what happens or be pushed to evolve even more and we all win.

This is happening with turning tools, chucks, lathes etc.

Forward movement.

Copying does nothing good except for possibly lowering the price and or the quality.

How would copying lower the quality? I would also suggest that there are many exact copies of chucks. No idea how those are improvements for us. The only new technology to come along is the Easy Wood.

 

[Lucky2]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Copies / clones are not necessarily lower quality but often are.

Look at the ripoff of the (patented btw) of the bolt action. Some find it passible but the quality is lower in a couple areas and there is a feature missing that I image saved money.

There have been some decent quality ones but many of the delta cloned 14" bandsaws were not up to the quality of the original. Some have evolved and added features over time like the grizzly. Others aren't even around anymore.

Scroll chucks have evolved. The concept comes from metal working chucks of course and the major jump is that our chucks are self aligning.

There are different mechanisms - tommybars, key etc. Different sizes. Some are enclosed. Barons have indexing markes on the back. Some have inserts to interchange. There are all different jaw type innovations like the cole jaws, recently pen jaws.

Nova came out with the idea of a 'safety chuck' that tightens opposite of the traditional direction with the idea that a catch would only tighten the jaws. Then of course the easy wood tools system.

All innovations within the scroll chuck category.

Yes, some just simply copy. But others change in various ways. Most chucks seem not to be 'clones' The big names - oneway, nova, vicmarc, EWT are not clones of one another. They all offer different variations and get a high five from me.

On the other thread, nobody's saying that Joyner owns the off center pendant jig market, but use your creative mind and offer something that gives someone a different option or variation or offers up a new functionality. Of a different size.

 

[low_48]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

Sure I am serious Len. I'm trying to look at invention in general. I like to read about history and patents, because often the inventor of major life changing inventions is not the person remembered in history. The person most often remembered in history is better at marketing. It's what you get in a free enterprise system, and all inventors know it. I guess I just find it humorous, all the name calling and passion about this one item. And on a site where someone's idea gets copied and posted almost daily. You know, people that sell coffee bean pens as an example. Does everyone buy from only the first guy that made them? Do you send him money when you profit from his idea? How ethical is it to cast your own and profit?

 

[Smitty37]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

You are behind the curve in your thinking...the Chinese manufacture all sorts of things and many of them are now using statistical quality controls very similar to what most western and such places a Japan, Taiwan and Korea use. In Kits, mainland China is not really tackling the really ornate kits like the Emperors et al from Taiwan but don't be surprised if they start making them shortly...

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

You are behind the curve in your thinking...the Chinese manufacture all sorts of things and many of them are now using statistical quality controls very similar to what most western and such places a Japan, Taiwan and Korea use.

The three key words here are, similar, most and many, which means not all or just some and almost the same.

 

[Smitty37]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

Sure I am serious Len. I'm trying to look at invention in general. I like to read about history and patents, because often the inventor of major life changing inventions is not the person remembered in history. The person most often remembered in history is better at marketing. It's what you get in a free enterprise system, and all inventors know it. I guess I just find it humorous, all the name calling and passion about this one item. And on a site where someone's idea gets copied and posted almost daily. You know, people that sell coffee bean pens as an example. Does everyone buy from only the first guy that made them? Do you send him money when you profit from his idea? How ethical is it to cast your own and profit?

Most of the "inventions" seen on the IAP would not pass muster as inventions at all. For intstance your coffee bean example - how different is that from casting cherry pits or olive pits or little pieces of mica or some other element? Not very. How much does a single bbl pen kit have to be changed to make it a different kit from all the other single barrel kits on the market. Somebody offered the first one (which in all likelihood was copied from some penmaker's finished pen). Some things you just can't patent.
BTW the patent battles like the Wright Brothers and Curtiss engaged in took place when the patent law was somewhat different than it is now. At that time (as Curtiss did) one could just make a minor change and the patent battle started over. Whether the Patent battle had anything to do with the Wright Brothers deaths was a little bit of poetic license taken by the shows producers - they didn't commit suicide.
It is also common practice to buy or sell patent rights whether or not a patent is issued. It is not uncommon, especially in the case of large companies, for John Doe to get issued a patent but have no rights to produce a product using it. Many of the patents IBM held were actually issued to an individual employee but IBM had the sole right to use the invention by virtue of employment agreements signed by all employees. That right, extended to inventions made outside of work if they were related to the employees work.

 

[Smitty37]

Copies / clones are not necessarily lower quality but often are.

Look at the ripoff of the (patented btw) of the bolt action. Some find it passible but the quality is lower in a couple areas and there is a feature missing that I image saved money.

There have been some decent quality ones but many of the delta cloned 14" bandsaws were not up to the quality of the original. Some have evolved and added features over time like the grizzly. Others aren't even around anymore.

Scroll chucks have evolved. The concept comes from metal working chucks of course and the major jump is that our chucks are self aligning.

There are different mechanisms - tommybars, key etc. Different sizes. Some are enclosed. Barons have indexing markes on the back. Some have inserts to interchange. There are all different jaw type innovations like the cole jaws, recently pen jaws.

Nova came out with the idea of a 'safety chuck' that tightens opposite of the traditional direction with the idea that a catch would only tighten the jaws. Then of course the easy wood tools system.

All innovations within the scroll chuck category.

Yes, some just simply copy. But others change in various ways. Most chucks seem not to be 'clones' The big names - oneway, nova, vicmarc, EWT are not clones of one another. They all offer different variations and get a high five from me.

On the other thread, nobody's saying that Joyner owns the off center pendant jig market, but use your creative mind and offer something that gives someone a different option or variation or offers up a new functionality. Of a different size.

Actually a clone or copy can be the same, better or poorer quality than the original. Someone can easily design a new item and have it produced aimed at a low end market, someone else can pick up that design and have it produced with better specifications aimed at a higher priced market....that can and does happen.

The bolt action from PSI is patented only in the USA (or at least originally it was only in the USA) so it is perfectly legal for foreign manufacturers (baring some trade agreement between the countries) to pick it up, manufacture it and sell it. It is not lawful to import infringing designs into the USA and those who have done so have violated US Law -- they, not the cloner are the ones at fault. Personally I have never seen a clone up close because I won't break the Law and import them, but there is no inherent reason why they can't equal PSI quality.

 

[Smitty37]

I'm not an economic major, just curious about how it has worked for inventors over the years. I recently enjoyed a show on The National Geographic Channel on the Wright Brothers versus Glen Curtiss. The patent battles between them actually slowed the early development of aviation. The stress of the battle of the law suits was suggested to be a contributing factor in the early death of one of the Wright Bros. But what I didn't catch in the show, was that the Wright Brothers were not the first inventors of the aileron. There was a British inventor that designed it, and an American inventor with previous work as well. But they fought with tooth and nail to back "their patents"! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers_patent_war

I also believe it's generally understood that many of Edison's inventions were not original thought. He took other's ideas and patents, then made changes or bought those patents from poor inventors, and made practical products. I once watched a video he made where he electrocuted a live elephant to show how dangerous AC power was, compared to "his" safe DC electricity! Brutal marketing plan!

So examples in history show these kind of battles over inventions and marketing have gone on for a long time. I can't imagine that an inventor today would ever consider for a minute, that their work would not be copied. It's generally considered a fact that you do your development, get the product on the market, and make the money while you can. Do the right marketing, and keep creative, and you may just keep the majority of customer base. But it's just a matter of time until you will be knocked off, if the market is there. One of the points that confuses me about the off center jig, is that there is a large enough market out there that would support a knockoff. Maybe it shows that a better job of marketing will develop that market? It's nice that people are loyal to the developer and the retail sales agent, so they have done their job to develop customer loyalty. But posting about some darned company (or person) that knocked off a product you like, is going to be a part time job!

Most major companies now cross license most or all of their patents with other companies. Patent infringement lawsuits are typically settled by cross license agreements. It is expensive to pursue patent infringement cases and frequently they are lost because holding a patent does not guarantee that it will stand up in court. I have seen patent cases settled because the company being sued for patent infringement showed that they had been using the idea before the patent was issued but had not gotten a patent themselves but had published the idea. At IBM when I was working there about half of the ideas that might have been patentable were just published without seeking a patent. But that publishing protected IBM if someone else did get a patent for the idea.

 

[low_48]

This has developed into an interesting and informative post, thanks everyone. When I started at Caterpillar, you got $1 for you patent, and a piece of brass engraved with the information. Now I think I heard they pay $300 and you get a acid etched piece of brass on a piece of walnut.

 

[Paul in OKC]

Most of the "inventions" seen on the IAP would not pass muster as inventions at all.

Well, since you said most........... :biggrin: May not be world changing, but..........

 

[Smitty37]

Most of the "inventions" seen on the IAP would not pass muster as inventions at all.

Well, since you said most........... :biggrin: May not be world changing, but..........

I said "most" because some probably would.

 

[Smitty37]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

You are behind the curve in your thinking...the Chinese manufacture all sorts of things and many of them are now using statistical quality controls very similar to what most western and such places a Japan, Taiwan and Korea use.

The three key words here are, similar, most and many, which means not all or just some and almost the same.

As you already know the same three "key" words also apply to companies in the western world, Japan, Korea and Taiwan...most, but not all, use statistical quality control methods and the methods will vary from company to company depending on the nature of products, the production processes and the production equipment used.

 

[Smitty37]

One other point --- you can buy a lot of name brand 'American' items that are made in China - most people do not think of them as either "cheap" or junk. Often the difference between a low priced harbor freight item and it's name brand counterparts is simply the finish. The name brand pays for a little more polishing and a little better paint job. Not to defend the Chinese but to warn you don't sell them short, they are gaining market share for other reasons than poorly made copies.

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

You are behind the curve in your thinking...the Chinese manufacture all sorts of things and many of them are now using statistical quality controls very similar to what most western and such places a Japan, Taiwan and Korea use.

The three key words here are, similar, most and many, which means not all or just some and almost the same.

As you already know the same three "key" words also apply to companies in the western world, Japan, Korea and Taiwan...most, but not all, use statistical quality control methods and the methods will vary from company to company depending on the nature of products, the production processes and the production equipment used.

And while I'm not disputing that there are SOME Chinese companies that make a quality product, not all do. And a great deal of the time when a product is cloned from a USA manufacturer in China it is done so on the cheap, using parts that may be a few thousands thinner, bearings that may have smaller races, etc. which meets it's quality standards but not the quality standards of the original manufacturer.

 

[Smitty37]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

You are behind the curve in your thinking...the Chinese manufacture all sorts of things and many of them are now using statistical quality controls very similar to what most western and such places a Japan, Taiwan and Korea use.

The three key words here are, similar, most and many, which means not all or just some and almost the same.

As you already know the same three "key" words also apply to companies in the western world, Japan, Korea and Taiwan...most, but not all, use statistical quality control methods and the methods will vary from company to company depending on the nature of products, the production processes and the production equipment used.

And while I'm not disputing that there are SOME Chinese companies that make a quality product, not all do. And a great deal of the time when a product is cloned from a USA manufacturer in China it is done so on the cheap, using parts that may be a few thousands thinner, bearings that may have smaller races, etc. which meets it's quality standards but not the quality standards of the original manufacturer.

You are talking here about specifications not quality control Roy. You have dealt with overseas manufacturers enough to know they will build to your specification. If you want a kit cloned and ask them to make it heavier, build it to tighter tolerances, provide better plating or make sure the finish is better - they will make what you want.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

I'm personally not that interested in the Chinese quality debate.

I thought we were talking about what we feel about copies / clones / changing designs of similar products.

 

[Smitty37]

I'm personally not that interested in the Chinese quality debate.

I thought we were talking about what we feel about copies / clones / changing designs of similar products.

The two things are hardly mutually exclusive. I seriously doubt if you could start a discussion of clones/changing designs etc. without the Chinese being brought into the discussion -- and Chinese quality is usually mentioned when they are brought in.

 

[edstreet]

How would copying lower the quality, are you serious? Most people who have the scruples to copy another persons work, usually gets the items made in China where there are few quality controls in place. They don't copy an idea, to go out and make a more expensive model. They copy the idea to get one made cheaper, so that they can possibly oversell the original designers copy. I don't want to hear or read anything about patents, yes, they do protect you and your inventions, at times. But, who has the money needed for the lawyers and all of the other costs incurred to get that patent.
Len

You are behind the curve in your thinking...the Chinese manufacture all sorts of things and many of them are now using statistical quality controls very similar to what most western and such places a Japan, Taiwan and Korea use. In Kits, mainland China is not really tackling the really ornate kits like the Emperors et al from Taiwan but don't be surprised if they start making them shortly...

Sounds like you have been placing orders again.

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

Random thoughts...

This thread as well as the other, sparked a thought;
What would happen if China had to comply with currant ISO 9000, or whatever it is now, in their manufacturing.
would it grind them to a halt for a while (less than a year) or a decade.

I am reminded of the guy who came up with the "delay Wiper Switch" for automobiles.
It was soon copied by one of the big three (back when) Eventually, all car makers had it. thankfully in the end that guy got his money for his invention. Almost 30 years I think it took him.

Kellogg in Battle Creek, Michigan use to have tours of their one of their factories. In 2nd Grade we took a trip there for what was an annual event for a field trip to Kellogg. It was an amazing to see at a young age. Before I graduated in 85 Kellogg had to end the tours because of Japanese were flocking in taking pictures almost every tour every day. All on the account of industrial espionage,

According to legend, Bill Gates bought the rights to DOS for pennies. Pity some don't have that minute integrity.

The sad thing is even a company like Montblanc, Rolex, Stanley, Panasonic, all have had their products stolen. The counterfeit market is as large as actual manufacturing authentic items. Trillions of Dollars are lost over time.

So what is the bottom line common denominator... the Greed for MONEY!

 

[Kragax]

I worked for a major corporation that when I hired on, had me sign off on any and all inventions I came up with that had anything to do with that industry. For the duration of my employment (35 yrs) and for five years after leaving. My friend came up with a seal that they used and he got a coffee cup as an award! I had several ideas that would have made money. I kept them to myself.

 

[Smitty37]

I think most big companies make employees sign similar agreements. And, I would think that most patents issued are for inventions related to the inventor's work. Big companies get a lot of patents for their employees. (The companies own the rights)

The company I worked for had suggestion awards, that could make an employee a whole lot of money, the employee got 20% of any savings to the company for the first two years after the suggestion was adopted. This applied even if the idea was not something that could be patented. For ideas that were good but perhaps didn't save a measureable amount of money they had fixed awards.

 

[Holz Mechaniker]

I worked for a major corporation that when I hired on, had me sign off on any and all inventions I came up with that had anything to do with that industry. For the duration of my employment (35 yrs) and for five years after leaving. My friend came up with a seal that they used and he got a coffee cup as an award! I had several ideas that would have made money. I kept them to myself.

A Coffee MUG!!
Gees I thought the guy who came up with the adhesive to make Post-it-Notes work got hosed over...

there would have been more honor to have Clemenza pop three rounds into the back of his head... Just don't forget to take the Cannoli...

 

[KenV]

When is it a "honest copy" and when it plagarism/counterfit

There is an interesting thread of progress in IAP archives of the Watch Pen/Watch-Part Pen evolution from being a signature item by Barry Gross, to it becoming the "every one makes it" commodity item today.

The best I can tell, the circuit board pen started with a penturner name Dennis Ewing from Texas. Bruce picked up on it and made and sold them through IAP, and then others. Dennis still makes a few from actual circuit boards that are recycled into pens.