Dealing with Homeowner's Associations

[BackyardSmokin]

there have been a few developments at work at work over the past few weeks, so it looks like I will be relocating within the next year or so. I will be given the choice of Denver, Austin, Virginia, Singapore or India. Since I cannot stand heat or humidity and my family is not willing to leave the country, Denver looks to be the optimal location.

With this we have been scoping out homes online, but any home within a reasonable distance to the office is attached to some sort of Homeowner's Association (HOA). I have heard both good and bad about HOAs, but I would like to know if anyone here lives in an HOA and how the noise is handled? I know that I can try to make friends with the "enemy" or make them something, but this does not work for everyone. How do you deal with those that nitpick the HOA rules?

For background, I have my lathe, tabletop drill press, tabletop bandsaw, tabletop sander and a scroll saw so I am hoping that since these are probably the quietest tools I hope that they will not cause too many issues. I only use them maybe once a month.

 

[jimofsanston]

Look into the HOA rules about workshops of any sort. It may be buried down deep so read carefully. It may not allow any form of workshop and a noise limit. You may have to put in sound barrier. They may also not allow any type of shed or limit one to being of the same style as the home ( which can be expensive). Also they may and usually is a clause that it can be updated at any time without notice. So if someone complains and has good connection to the HOA would go thru quickly and stop you completely form anything you do.

 

[BackyardSmokin]

Thank you Jim.

I am looking at homes with a three car garage so I can use the extra space for my "shop".

My brother moved into an HOA 6 months ago and so far he has been nailed with the following infractions:

• Not having a permit for a moving truck
• Not submitting architectural plans for a shed.
• Shed being more than 1 ft higher than the fence
• Having the garage door open for more than 30 mins. (This happened twice, with the first being on move in day.)
• Not requesting a permit for a visitor
• Not requesting a permit for the visitor to park on the street.
• Leaving a car parked in the driveway past 10pm.

To me, most of these sound ridiculous (I understand shed height if it is too close to the front of the house).

 

[flkamm]

HOA's, have too many rules for people who like their freedom.

 

[jttheclockman]

I also have heard horror stories like this for such silly things. To me that is not freedom. Too bad about your job. Hope things work out for you but do not lock yourself in. Who knows maybe there will be another shift.

 

[BackyardSmokin]

Unfortunately, I am in IT and they are "realigning" to their "core" centers and Silicon Valley is no longer a "core" center.

I just got an email back from a realtor out there and they said that in CO there is a clause in the real estates contracts that states that you have from the time of entering escrow to the day before you sign to cancel the purchase because we do not like the HOA rules.

 

[wyone]

HOAs can be a pain, but they also do keep the property values up. We live in Parker, which is a suburb of Denver in a new development, and so far have had no issues at all with our HOA. The worst problem you might have is finding a place for what you want to pay in the Denver area. Property values are high, and not that many properties out there. A good friend just listed their older home for $300K and the first weekend they had it listed they had a mostly cash offer of $312K that they took. Good luck to you!

 

[Wood Butcher]

I live in a development in Indiana in a county that is above average in income per family and we have a HOA. I love my HOA. There are some families in the development who can't seem to get the hang of being a respectful, considerate and polite neighbor. The HOA is for us to have reasonable living conditions and to protect the home values. They agreed to these rules before they purchased the house and they must live with that or move. Some of these folks would erect pink and purple fences, 4 story junk sheds, have cars on blocks in the front yard and never do any form of maintenance on house or grounds if there was no HOA. That hurts my, and many other's, home values.
The freedom of doing what you want is dreamy but if it infringes my living conditions then it is beyond what you are allowed to do....according to our HOA, and I agree. A dog left out barking for an hour is unacceptable. If that offends you then perhaps you should bless another neighborhood with your presence, look for one without a HOA. Why do you suppose HOAs came to be I the first place. Think about it.
There are speed limits to protect others, not just you. You can't disobey them without risking penalties, you can't get them changed just because you bought a Mustang and want to see how fast it will go abide by them or else suffer the consequences.
That's all. No more comments on this from me.
Bill

 

[TimS124]

I have a home with an HOA...I read it and asked the HOA president multiple questions before agreeing to buy the house we have now. Some HOAs have huge binders of obtuse rules that have evolved over time to cover every incident that ever came up...ours are much simpler and noise is less of an issue since properties in our neighborhood are all at least an acre. Houses are far enough apart that it's not hard to keep noise from being an issue. Find an HOA that you can live with...avoid the ones that over-restrict you!

 

[BackyardSmokin]

Bill,

I personally agree with you on every point that you stated. These points also show why we prefer an HOA as we have to deal with them everyday in my current neighborhood. (yes to the loud dog barking all day and night, yes to the guy drag racing his camaro up and down the street after midnight, yes to the fact that people throw things at your car for driving down the street while they play basketball and having to stop their game. I deal with them all)

My question is more of on those 1-2 days a month where I may be using my tools. How is noise like this handled by the HOA if I am starting by 9a or 10a and finishing by 6p? What about those neighbors that complain about any noise louder than a whisper?

 

[Wood Butcher]

OK, said I wouldn't revisit but...
I have a 3 1/2 garage and the 1 1/2 is my shop. It's walled off, wired and heated (no AC yet) and I work with the door open when it's nice. I don't work after 8 or 9pm especially with the TS or the router or the shop vac, DC is ok though. Courtesy goes a long way and I have neighbors stop to see what I'm working on and to shoot the bull. I've done projects for a lot of them, small stuff mostly, and I always asked them if the noise bothered them. No one has complained. I have also become the local data base for info on painters, HVAC workers, roofers, etc. I've tried to be overly helpful and it has allowed me to do what I like without problems.
Oh, and no loud woodworking on Sunday until after noon and if they neighbors are cooking out or have guests, use hand tools only. It's worked well for over 10 years now. Before you buy go talk to the neighbors, they are just people.
WB

 

[conandy]

Hey, Backyard. The Denver area does have neighborhoods without HOA's. They can be hard to find, but they are here. I live in one (Centennial, south part of the Denver metro area). If you P.M. me I may be able to point you at some areas you might want to consider, like Centennial, Littleton, Lakewood, Arvada. My wife and I have been looking to potentially upgrade to a home with bigger house and bigger workshop space, but the search has been challenging (trying to find another non-HOA area), so I do might have some ideas for you, depending upon where you want to live and where you will be commuting to. I'm no real estate agent or anything, and no expert on all areas, but might have a few ideas, at least in the suburbs. P.M. me if you want to chat.

 

[conandy]

Before I posted above, I had missed your post, Backyard, where you said you actually like HOA's. I am extremely anti-HOA, so ignore me if you really want to be in one. But if you want ideas on some really nice, long established, neighborhoods without HOA's, I'm your man.

 

[Herb G]

I can't speak for all HOA's, obviously. But I can speak to the ones around the Washington DC area.

Most are made up of old fuddy duddys that happened to move in first, and they decided on their own they wanted to set the rules for everyone else.
They are mostly frustrated old geezers who have no control over their own lives, and want to power trip on someone else to show "they still have it".

My wife & I looked at a home in such a neighborhood, and when we were at the open house, some old guy shows up & starts asking us questions. I ignored him, so he starts asking my wife the same questions.

The realtor pulled us aside & explained who he was. I told the agent it was none of the old guy's business what we did for a living, if we had any pets or kids, etc.
Long story short, we bought elsewhere with no HOA.

It's a very personal decision, that only you can make.

 

[CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI]

Way around HOA's

Don't purchase a home in a modern subdivision.

 

[vtgaryw]

We've lived in a place with a HOA. It wasn't too bad, but it was a small development, but most of us ignored a lot of the rules. If your development has a self-appointed "HOA Nazi" they can make life miserable for a lot of people.

One of the reasons my wife and I expanded our starter home rather than moving to a more "upscale" development was to avoid some of the silly restrictions. I have a project car in my driveway and a boat parked out to the side. Our yard is neat, but mowing my lawn is not always a high priority for me. I put my veggie garden out by the road because that's where I get the best sun. All of these things would be a problem for most HOAs that we looked at.

-gary

 

[Ambidex]

Thanks for reminding me small "hick" towns don't suck.eace:

 

[Smitty37]

All new developments here will have an HOA. The reason is that all new developments must have certain common areas that the home owners must maintain. Every new development in this state must have a storm water drainage pond that is the responsibility of the home owners to maintain including the grounds around it. Most also must have a buffer zone between the lots and the street or state highway that the development is entered from, that is also the home owners to maintain. The HOA rules in the development where we live were put in place by the developer before any lots were even sold.

 

[Smitty37]

Washington DC is kind of unique and the area around Washington is not the most lax regarding development. Developments in MD are probably worse than those in VA but that is changing VA is getting worse. They have a large population of people who due to their job and political outlook actually want restrictive developments. There are other areas that are the same way. The two general trends I notice are 1) the higher priced the development the more restrictive the rules and 2) the more liberal politically the area is the more restrictive the rules.

I can't speak for all HOA's, obviously. But I can speak to the ones around the Washington DC area.

Most are made up of old fuddy duddys that happened to move in first, and they decided on their own they wanted to set the rules for everyone else.
They are mostly frustrated old geezers who have no control over their own lives, and want to power trip on someone else to show "they still have it".

My wife & I looked at a home in such a neighborhood, and when we were at the open house, some old guy shows up & starts asking us questions. I ignored him, so he starts asking my wife the same questions.

The realtor pulled us aside & explained who he was. I told the agent it was none of the old guy's business what we did for a living, if we had any pets or kids, etc.
Long story short, we bought elsewhere with no HOA.

It's a very personal decision, that only you can make.

 

[TellicoTurning]

Two interesting stories about HOA's... I lived in the Houston area, just north of Houston in several different subdivisions... the first one I lived in had an HOA that was relatively lax, but did enforce some rules. My stepfather died in 1980. At the time of his death he owed me a little bit of money, which I was not concerned about getting back, but my sister had inherited his truck - a 1971 Chevy - she decided I should have the truck and she and her husband dropped it off in my driveway. I was driving a company car, plus had a sports cart sitting on block in the garage... I didn't need the truck. It sat in my drive way unmoved for about 4 months and I finally got a letter from the HOA about an "abandoned" vehicle in my drive way... I moved it from one side of the driveway to the other about once a week... no more hassle from the HOA.

The other story, I moved into a house in another subdivision that had essentially been abandoned and was just sitting. It had really good bones and I got a great deal from the owner on a lease/purchase option. My wife and I started fixing it up. We were working on the front flower beds. I had put in landscape timbers and was planning to fill the beds with garden soil. I had 7 yards of dirt delivered to my driveway, up near the house and actually behind a couple of large cedars that sat on either side of the driveway near the street. To see my garage (where the dirt was dumped) from the street you had to stop just so to be able to see between the shrubs... it was actually dangerous backing out because of those shrubs... The dirt was dumped on Friday, and I spent Saturday and Sunday shoveling the dirt into wheelbarrow and moving it to the beds... I had moved half of the dirt by Sunday night.... on Monday I got a letter from HOA telling me I had a pile of dirt in my driveway that needed to be moved.

 

[Culprit]

I don't know if you're absolutely set on Colorado, but where in VA do you have an option of going?

 

[BackyardSmokin]

I don't know if you're absolutely set on Colorado, but where in VA do you have an option of going?

Ashburn, VA. I am set on Colorado as I cannot take heat and humidity.

 

[BackyardSmokin]

Thank you everyone.

I was able to get a hold of a lawyer that specializes in HOA issues in the Denver area. They said most of the HOA have a "no noise" between certain hours ordinance as well as a "do not be a noise nuisance" during waking hours. However, many of the HOA noise disputes are based on the "do not be a nuisance" as it is vague term.

With this, many of the newer neighborhoods and HOAs are enacting ordinances that are more quantifiable so it can be actioned against or dismissed. The most common way of quantifiable measurement that HOAs are using is that your noise is no louder than 60dB (normal conversation) at 30 ft. Most HOAs have an exclusion allowing up to 120dB for no more than 20 mins a day (mostly to allow for landscaping care).

Of course one could always request a permit to be louder for the day.

 

[Skie_M]

Hmm ... time to invent a muffler for your wood shop!

 

[Smitty37]

Thank you everyone.

I was able to get a hold of a lawyer that specializes in HOA issues in the Denver area. They said most of the HOA have a "no noise" between certain hours ordinance as well as a "do not be a noise nuisance" during waking hours. However, many of the HOA noise disputes are based on the "do not be a nuisance" as it is vague term.

With this, many of the newer neighborhoods and HOAs are enacting ordinances that are more quantifiable so it can be actioned against or dismissed. The most common way of quantifiable measurement that HOAs are using is that your noise is no louder than 60dB (normal conversation) at 30 ft. Most HOAs have an exclusion allowing up to 120dB for no more than 20 mins a day (mostly to allow for landscaping care).

Of course one could always request a permit to be louder for the day.

Must be pretty small properties....I'd venture a bet that they couldn't mow and trim my yard in 20 minutes unless they had about three people working it. And, what is ironic about that kind of an order is that most of the people will be gone for 8 hours during the day. Not to start a political discussion, but I'd be willing to wager you could determine how an area voted in the most recent election by reading the HOA association rules.

 

[Smitty37]

Thank you everyone.

I was able to get a hold of a lawyer that specializes in HOA issues in the Denver area. They said most of the HOA have a "no noise" between certain hours ordinance as well as a "do not be a noise nuisance" during waking hours. However, many of the HOA noise disputes are based on the "do not be a nuisance" as it is vague term.

With this, many of the newer neighborhoods and HOAs are enacting ordinances that are more quantifiable so it can be actioned against or dismissed. The most common way of quantifiable measurement that HOAs are using is that your noise is no louder than 60dB (normal conversation) at 30 ft. Most HOAs have an exclusion allowing up to 120dB for no more than 20 mins a day (mostly to allow for landscaping care).

Of course one could always request a permit to be louder for the day.

Do they claim the right in ingress and egress to make the measurements? And, do they specify what kind of instrument is required to make the measurements and if evidence of proper calibration of said instrument against some specified standard is required?

 

[sbwertz]

My shop is so well insulated that you can't really hear shop noise off my property...the window AC unit makes more outside noise than my dust collector or saws. I have a roll up door on it instead of a garage door and it is also insulated. I have to admit I did the insulation for the AZ heat, not the noise, so the noise abatement was a happy accident. I still don't turn before 9am or after 10 pm though. We don't have a real HOA here, but we have a lot of nosy neighbors who will call and complain about anything they don't like. I had one of them call and turn me in to the city for "weeds" in my yard. When they came out, I pointed out that they weren't weeds, they were carefully planted California poppies and I grew them every spring. No problem. So lack of an HOA is no guarantee you won't be hassled by obnoxious neighbors. I just make sure I am not annoying them. I've given all my close neighbors pens and even let their kids come over and make pens, so I'm golden. (I also allow them all to pick peaches off my tree every year, which helps!)

Wherever you buy, just be courteous and make friends with your close neighbors, and you should have no problems. (Oh, and it also helps that you are more than willing to come cut dead limbs out of their trees for free. I also have several neighbors who save large limbs for me from their yard trees if one breaks in a storm.)

 

[Smitty37]

My shop is so well insulated that you can't really hear shop noise off my property...the window AC unit makes more outside noise than my dust collector or saws. I have a roll up door on it instead of a garage door and it is also insulated. I have to admit I did the insulation for the AZ heat, not the noise, so the noise abatement was a happy accident. I still don't turn before 9am or after 10 pm though. We don't have a real HOA here, but we have a lot of nosy neighbors who will call and complain about anything they don't like. I had one of them call and turn me in to the city for "weeds" in my yard. When they came out, I pointed out that they weren't weeds, they were carefully planted California poppies and I grew them every spring. No problem. So lack of an HOA is no guarantee you won't be hassled by obnoxious neighbors. I just make sure I am not annoying them. I've given all my close neighbors pens and even let their kids come over and make pens, so I'm golden. (I also allow them all to pick peaches off my tree every year, which helps!)

Wherever you buy, just be courteous and make friends with your close neighbors, and you should have no problems. (Oh, and it also helps that you are more than willing to come cut dead limbs out of their trees for free. I also have several neighbors who save large limbs for me from their yard trees if one breaks in a storm.)

Moving from where I lived in NY to DE was a bit tough. In NY I lived in a town with no zoning and few land use restrictions and of course I lived in a rural town with no such thing as a home owner's association. In Delaware I moved into an area that zoning, lots of land use restrictions and many HOAs. The main advantage I had was that my closest neighbors were often not at home, and those who were home had their own AC's running so my tools were not even heard. The only complaint I ever got was about a lighthouse where a neighbor said it shined to bright in one of he bedroom windows when she had guests (she didn't see it herself - it was not her bedroom window. We simply painted one section of glass so it wouldn't shine in her direction and all were happy.