Damaged Blank - Opinions?

[mbroberg]

I received these blanks in the mail today from a customer. I am not going to make a lot of commentaries because I do not want to sway or influence and responses. I will, however, give the best description I can.


These label blanks were cast on 8mm tubes. Both ends of both blanks have been milled. Damage occurred on one end of both blanks. A small portion of the interior of the tube was cut away to the underside of the label. At the side of the damage that is farthest inside the tube, there is a shoulder of brass where it was pushed up. There are circular striations, running down the length of the tubes.


What caused this? I would like to identify as many contributing factors as possible. Any possibility is on the table.


I realize that this may somewhat duplicate this recent thread by NewfoundlandLaw. I didn't want to encroach on his thread and I am hoping to have these particular blanks addressed.

 

[Sylvanite]

I would guess that the ends were milled with a 7mm pen mill (without an 8mm mandrel or bushing) and the end of the 7mm mandrel cut the inside of the brass tube.

 

[leehljp]

There are some people that do not understand basics of tool operations, or cause and effect, or take responsibility of mess ups.

This looks like one of those.

 

[MRDucks2]

Looks very similar to damage I have done to my own blanks early on using a pen mill in a hand held variable speed drill.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[Curly]

Give them replacements in order to keep them happy but square it first. Pen mill damage and trying to explain what happened may be taken as criticism and may not go over well. Let them know that you won't replace another if they do it again. They may still blow up the replacement when they attempt to turn it. You might want to turn it round just to minimize that possibility.

 

[CREID]

Its hard to tell, but this could have happened by using one of those cone shaped deburring tools in a drill.

 

[rholiday]

As per Sylvanite, the end of the shaft cut into the tube.

The pen mill was already turning, (as in a hand drill or a chuck in the headstock), when the blank was put onto the shaft of the mill. The tube in the blank was not positioned parallel to the shaft of the pen mill. Since the pen mill was already under power, circular striations would occur as the blank / tube was pushed down over the spinning pen mill. Since the blank/tube was not at the correct angle, the end of the mill shaft would dig into the brass tube and push up a ridge while cutting that part of the tube down to the label. There is probably a limit as to how much of the inside of the brass tube can be cut away based on the maximum angle that the pen mill shaft can be out of line with the inside of the tube.
The same situation occurs if the blank is spinning when the pen mill is inserted into the blank at an angle.

Couldn't tell from the pictures if the ends of the blank were milled square / perpendicular to the tube.

 

[1080Wayne]

That speaks eloquently as to why many of us no longer use pen mills . My suggestion would be to finish the blank ends yourself , and raise the price appropriately .

 

[MRDucks2]

As per Sylvanite, the end of the shaft cut into the tube.



The pen mill was already turning, (as in a hand drill or a chuck in the headstock), when the blank was put onto the shaft of the mill. The tube in the blank was not positioned parallel to the shaft of the pen mill. Since the pen mill was already under power, circular striations would occur as the blank / tube was pushed down over the spinning pen mill. Since the blank/tube was not at the correct angle, the end of the mill shaft would dig into the brass tube and push up a ridge while cutting that part of the tube down to the label. There is probably a limit as to how much of the inside of the brass tube can be cut away based on the maximum angle that the pen mill shaft can be out of line with the inside of the tube.

The same situation occurs if the blank is spinning when the pen mill is inserted into the blank at an angle.



Couldn't tell from the pictures if the ends of the blank were milled square / perpendicular to the tube.

Very good, except that I found my error and damage would occur on insertion (wouldn't try to hit a hole with a spinning bit) but on retraction.

Insert shaft into blank, apply power to square end and, under the premise of cleaning the tube, remain under power on extraction of shaft from tube.

It is a rather natural act of the hands to separate in an arc, not a straight line, causing the flutes end of the pen mill shaft to catch the brass tube near the end of the removal.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[EBorraga]

And this is reason number 1 why i sand the ends flush before shipping. Take operator error away on that step

 

[jttheclockman]

Just so we have the whole story straight and correct me if I am wrong.

You cast these type blanks and sold them to a customer. Either the customer contacted you or you sell through a third party set-up and they contacted you. You were in contact with this customer and you told them to send them back to you or they did this on their own.

As far as what happened is just guesses unless they told you what they did. Are they blaming you for the happenings?? Do they expect you to replace free of charge?? Who is to say it won't happen again if this person does not know what they are doing. You can not supply instructions to all your blanks that you sell because there are many ways to prep a blank, spin a blank, finish a blank. Thus the reason this forum formed in the first place. Tell them to join and either ask questions or do some searching the many pages over the last 15 years accumulated.

 

[mbroberg]

Just so we have the whole story straight and correct me if I am wrong.

You cast these type blanks and sold them to a customer. Either the customer contacted you or you sell through a third party set-up and they contacted you. You were in contact with this customer and you told them to send them back to you or they did this on their own.

As far as what happened is just guesses unless they told you what they did. Are they blaming you for the happenings?? Do they expect you to replace free of charge?? Who is to say it won't happen again if this person does not know what they are doing. You can not supply instructions to all your blanks that you sell because there are many ways to prep a blank, spin a blank, finish a blank. Thus the reason this forum formed in the first place. Tell them to join and either ask questions or do some searching the many pages over the last 15 years accumulated.

The customer commissioned the blanks. The customer contacted me and sent the blanks back on his own. The customer claims that the blanks were defective. The customer does expect the blanks to be replaced free of charge.

 

[gtriever]

I call BS on this one. Seeing your tag line (Ohio Penworks), I've used several of your blanks without any issues. I have a feeling that you're dealing with a customer that (a) knows just enough to be dangerous and (b) can't or won't admit that he screwed the pooch with these.

 

[rholiday]

The blanks are not defective, (but you knew that).

 

[Terredax]

My opinion...

Since the blanks have virtually exact damage, and the labels couldn't be applied to a tube with a hole in it, it is obvious operator error.

It is irrelevant how the damage occurred, but it was caused by the customer.

Since the damage was obviously caused by the customer, I would explain that the damage was operator error, and to help them out, you will make new blanks for 50% off.

If they object, just replace the blanks, and blacklist them. In either case, be sure to make it clear that the blanks will not be replaced again. I would get email confirmation showing they acknowledge this fact. Some people will take advantage at any opportunity.

 

[stonepecker]

Refund the purchase and put them on a list of people who you will not sell to in the future.

We have to be willing to admit our mistakes. Others feel that they can do no wrong. Things happen and everyone isn't perfect. I can see it happening at one end, on one blank. But when it is like this.......something happened after the blanks were shipped. We all need to stand up and admit when a mistake happens and be able to say, "I did that. It is my fault".
Just my opinion.

 

[jttheclockman]

Just so we have the whole story straight and correct me if I am wrong.

You cast these type blanks and sold them to a customer. Either the customer contacted you or you sell through a third party set-up and they contacted you. You were in contact with this customer and you told them to send them back to you or they did this on their own.

As far as what happened is just guesses unless they told you what they did. Are they blaming you for the happenings?? Do they expect you to replace free of charge?? Who is to say it won't happen again if this person does not know what they are doing. You can not supply instructions to all your blanks that you sell because there are many ways to prep a blank, spin a blank, finish a blank. Thus the reason this forum formed in the first place. Tell them to join and either ask questions or do some searching the many pages over the last 15 years accumulated.

The customer commissioned the blanks. The customer contacted me and sent the blanks back on his own. The customer claims that the blanks were defective. The customer does expect the blanks to be replaced free of charge.

Well Michael, this situation has come up before here. Maybe not this same exact scenario but one where the customer has destroyed either blanks or tools and has come back to vendor for restitution. It is obvious that a pen mill of some sort has caused this damage. Weather they used the wrong size when trying to prep the blank or something is wrong with their tool. It is obvious to a somewhat experienced pen maker that it is customer error.

You now have to ask yourself how you and that means you want to handle this. What we say is irrelevant. We all voice an opinion and maybe some will give examples of how they would or have handled something similar but again it comes down to you and your reputation and feelings of losing the customer and maybe future customers if they run in circle of other pen turners.

You can replace blanks or refun money, and( I )believe you will and either attach a note stating the obvious reason and explaining this is unacceptable and either disengage him from your customer list or just tell them from now on there will be no refunds for things like this. Explain this is a one time replacement and move on with the feeling you did the right thing. Maybe from here on out make it known of this policy when you sell product. I know you are a small vendor but you are dealing with the public as well as everyone who sells blanks or tools or whatever product through this site or on their own. As they say things happen and you had to know this could happen or has happened in the past. I can tell you some of my stories but won't bore you and just say I replaced and moved on and wrote off the damage on my taxes.

Now if you send them new product you can do them a favor too by milling them before you send them. You can do this with all your blanks if you are custom making. This is just an option.

Good luck in your business and hope goes well.

 

[skiprat]

JT, I must admit that I'm impressed with your very level headed response. :wink:
You must be mellowing out in your old age.....:biggrin:

 

[jttheclockman]

JT, I must admit that I'm impressed with your very level headed response. :wink:
You must be mellowing out in your old age.....:biggrin:

Skip "Life" is way too short to sweat the small stuff. Woke up this morning and when the feet hit the floor I said to myself today is going to be a good day!!:beer:

 

[Dale Allen]

Like they say...don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff!:biggrin:

 

[Woodchipper]

I heard of a custom fishing rod builder who took photos of each rod he built and ships. That way, if there is any complaint, he can show the photos as to the quality when shipped. After it leaves his shop, it is someone els's baby to diaper.
Edit: I sold restaurant equipment and supplies. All orders were signed or noted a phone order. Any special order not a stock item was clearly marked, "Special order. Cannot be cancelled or returned." The customer got a copy of the order.

 

[mbroberg]

I thank everyone for their responses. I hope that this thread served my intended purpose for starting it. The responses were exactly what I expected them to be. I started the thread for the benefit of the customer.

This customer has purchased a total of 16 blanks from me. I don't know how many he has actually turned. These two blanks were not the first that he damaged and blamed the blanks for being defective. Long story short, he claimed tubes fell out while turning two blanks from a previous order. He sent me one of them. I consulted another blank maker who has more experience than I and learned that while rare, it can happen. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and replaced the blanks. During a later email conversation, he told me that he has to wear gloves while he turns because his carbide tool gets so hot he can't hold it in his bare hand. No wonder the adhesive holding the label to the tube failed. Now I understand.

This customer does not believe, or at least cannot admit that he damaged his blanks. Immediately after starting this thread I sent an email to the customer with a link to it, inviting him to follow along and take a look at some opinions of others. My hope was that he may realize how unrealistic his claims of defective blanks are. He is a member here but is not very active. Zero posts in a couple of months shy of three years. Last activity here was in June of this year. Although he hasn't logged on, hopefully, he accessed the thread as a guest. Who knows, maybe he will take a look around and find a few pieces of information that could improve his penturning skills.

Now I have another concern. In the email I sent him after receiving the damaged blanks I told him that he needs to find another source for his blanks. I won't sell to him anymore. That means someone else may have to deal with him. I do not want to publically shame the guy, I really hope he spends some time looking around this site but I don't want him to just start over again buying "defective" blanks from another blank vendor. If you make/sell blanks on the Internet, especially label blanks you might want to send me a PM.

 

[Curly]

Thanks for the last paragraph. Looking out for each other is important. Unfortunately not everyone should be a customer.

 

[Dale Allen]

I'd say if the tool gets too hot to hold...he forgot to install the carbide cutter!
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

 

[greenacres2]

I'd say if the tool gets too hot to hold...he forgot to install the carbide cutter!
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Nah--you just go too long without rotating it. Rotating when dull makes a world of difference in heating the tool--I can state that it's a fact in my shop, and a lesson learned.

As to the blanks in the photos, I've made similar looking marks by using a barrel trimmer in a vise on a drill press when re-inserting the spinning bit. Ruined a few very nice pieces of wood that way. Switched to a jig on a sander, no problems since.

Mike's service--first blank I bought from Mike had an air bubble (very small) near one end. Would have located behind the clip on assembly, so not really a problem. My wife loved the blank and wanted me to turn it for her so definitely not a problem in selling quality!! I let Mike know so he would know for production purposes--but that it was fine. Replacement came a few days later, completely unnecessary but much appreciated. Have turned several of his since--never an issue (and the Alumilite is always crystal clear!!)

My experiences only.
earl

 

[Woodchipper]

I turned a blank and started to take it off the pen mill in the DP. It wasn't hot, it just doesn't take me a lot of time to look at it.