Copying someone's design

[Joebobber]

Hi guys. I was wondering what is the norm for copying someone's design? I am wondering because I have a pen in a pen contest that is judged on originality. I am a newcomer to turning but have a solid year under my belt and am just starting to sell things. So last night while searching for a site I noticed someone had copied my design and was selling their pen for a good chunk of change. I am concerned theirs will get noticed and I will be docked due to lack of originality and copying his pen. I dont know for a fact this person copied me, but I mean it is my design on a different pen. I don't remember seeing it a few weeks ago when I first found the site I was looking for this time. Is this customary in the pen turning world?

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Without pictures or some sort of description, it's hard to respond in anything but the most general of ways. Here's my thoughts on the subject:

It's hard to come up with something that is totally new in pen making. New to you doesn't necessarily mean new to the world. I'm not saying your idea isn't new and revolutionary (I have no idea based on your post). It's just my experience that re-invention is a lot more common than invention.

Generally, someone who invents something truly new, who doesn't want it copied, will get a patent. This doesn't prevent copying, but you can at least take steps to limit production / sale in your home country. New ideas that are not patented are quickly adopted and used by artisans and commercial outfits. If you read about the history of pen making, particularly in the glory days of the early 20th century, it's filled with tales of idea poaching and epic legal battles.

If you read back through this forum, you might be able to figure out who posted the first cigar illusion, steam punk, feather, poly clay, on and on and on pens. Plenty of people making them now. And maybe the first poster here was the originator or maybe they just took an idea and ran with it. Does it really matter? If money is at stake then the answer is generally yes, otherwise not so much. Plenty of ideas offered up here just to advance the art of pen making.

Some people won't post pictures here because they don't want their ideas copied. Not posting pictures here might slow things down, but then you also can't sell online either. If you don't want people copying your designs, then develop skills / processes that the average person won't be able to duplicate. If you invent something that is easy to do, then expect it to be copied. Even if you patent it.

Pens, smart phones, virtual assistants, music, art.....anything. If it's a good idea and it's easy for anybody to do, it will spread like wildfire. Especially if you can make a buck doing it.

Ed

 

[Woodchipper]

"Imitation is the greatest form of flattery." Good question and good answers.

 

[MRDucks2]

I have been turning about a year and every time I thing I have done something new, I find I have simply rediscovered something already accomplished without prior knowledge. The one thing I figured out that was original, I decided to post on here so everyone could benefit.

I have seen some heated arguments on here about copying methods or materials. Some were frustrated, some were mad they didn't get credit for being the first. One person was upset about not getting credit for something he first done 6 years ago. Chances are the person who was doing it today didn't even copy the original but someone who copied it or someone else.

As far as your Contest goes, if you can show the copied idea was done after you submitted your design and you are concerned about it, show the evidence and express your concern to the organizers. The drawback is that you may be drawing their attention to something they are unaware of.

Tough call, but, history is replete with brilliant people coming up with brilliant ideas at nearly the same moment across the globe.


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[dogcatcher]

I have been turning for over 50 years. Unless you sat down and looked at something and intentionally copied it, my advice is not to worry about it. You may have subconsciously used the design idea for your creation, but still you used your own imagination, creativity and talent to create what you made.

I was threatened with a lawsuit by a young man that claimed I copied one of his game call designs. It was one that I had been making before he was born, I ignored him. Later I got a letter from his attorney, I sent a reply back, that I had been making that call in the 1970's, but if his client thought he had a case, file the lawsuit, it is his dollars. I never heard back.

 

[jttheclockman]

Ed summed things up very elegant and on point. I bet you are copying things right now and you have no idea you are doing it. Heck I take ideas from the big boys in the pen industry and run with them. No I can not duplicate their pens because of their techniques but the ideas are not protected by laws. This topic of infringement has been beaten to a dead horse as they say here and other forums. PSI is a big candidate for copying ideas. There are people who design for them that are members here. You can do the investigation.

But the market is expanding every day with the use of lasers and cnc and now plastic extruding to go with casting everything imaginable onto a tube to decals and photos, to thread tying, to poly clay, to acrylics of all kinds color wise and woods with all the segmenting of all kinds. This stuff is not new and maybe someone technique maybe new or improved but to patent it good luck Barry Gross has claims about doing the first watch part pen and says he patent that. Hows that going??? Huge discussion about it here as well as the computer blank pen which actually was exploited.

I know you probably can not show pen design until after your contest but if you want to bring it up again then please do so. Good luck in contest.

 

[Kenny Durrant]

Great points. My take is that there are probably thousands of pen makers and no telling how many turners. I wouldn't be concerned unless there was a patent. With that being said I don't want to be just like everyone else. Don't get me wrong I've used others ideas several times but I want to put enough of a twist so people will know it's different. NOT so I can say I didn't copy their idea just so we can be a little different. The first thing I want to accomplish when I make a pen is that when someone sees it they know it's not a store bought pen. The second thing I try to do is do something that will set me apart from the rest of the crowd. Since there are so many people making pens the second thing is getting harder by the day. I'm sure it's happened but I've never heard any complaints from others that I've use their ideas. I suppose after making that last comment I should thanks again to ALL for posting and sharing your creations.

 

[monophoto]

First, a point of clarification/semantics - you cannot 'patent' the design of a pen. Legally, all you can do is to claim a 'copyright' to that design.

If you were to invent a new form a pen, eg, a fountain pen that uses a different form of ink reservoir, that would be patentable. However, the only form of protection for the exterior design is a copyright.

But even then, as a practical matter there are limits to how far you can go. It is well know that you can't put registered trademark (ie, a commercial logo or the logo of a sports team) on a pen. But it would be hard to argue that a specific combination of coves and beads could be interpreted as a copyrightable 'design' - coves and beads are inherently generic. A blank maker might try to claim that a particular segmented glue-up is protected, but in that case I suspect that whether that claim would be allowed depends on how unique the segmentation is - in terms of species of timber and also how the bits are cut and assembled. The same thing is true of acrylic blanks.

But there is another distinction here that is pretty significant - patent and copyright are legal principles that allow the creator of something to claim ownership and prevent others from making and selling an identical product. The 'and selling' is important because patent and copyright are intended to allow the maker to have exclusive commercial benefits of his work.

There are two additional issues here:
1. Is one pen a copy of the other, or is it a matter that two pen makers happened upon the same design? He didn't say what makes the design similar - again, coves and beads are generic, and it is very possible that two pen makers could randomly produce pens with the same combination of coves and beads.
2. Is it possible to establish precedence? That is, can it be shown that one was created first, and then the maker of the second saw it and chose to make a copy?

But the original post described the issue in terms of a pen contest where the rules call for originality. Frankly, the concept of 'originality' in the context of a competition is very vague, and eventually, the final decision comes down to a subjective judgement by those who are running the competition.

I've never entered a pen competition, but I know that in photography competitions, a requirement for originality opens the door to endless argument and debate.

 

[MRDucks2]

Great post, Louie.


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[nativewooder]

After a woodturning career full of woodchips, sawdust, wood chlups, bowls, pens, boxes, etc, I have learned I owe nothing to noone but GOD! Though you may meet with many thousands of people who are just as honest as anyone you have ever met, there will always be thieves waiting to take advantage of your honesty! They are seemingly average people, sometimes have a mouth that never stops, reminded me of used car salespeople, etc. But remember, only GOD can make a tree, so don't begrudge those who have to lie, cheat, and steal to feel powerful because they are the weakest!


For every useful thing you have made from GOD's trees you have enriched someone's life, and you will have a much richer life with HIM!

 

[Woodchipper]

The only way you could use a logo or commercial would be licensed to use them. Example would be all the people who make shirts, hats, etc., with college and professional sports logos. If I recall, one has to pay a royalty on them. Anyone else have anything more specific?

 

[Joebobber]

No guys I think I phrased my question wrong. I know that I am probably not the first person to arrange multiple wood and metal in a pattern, and I am totally fine, and honestly honored, that someone would see my work and want to copy it. My issue here is this is a pen contest this was entered in. There is almost no doubt about it he copied me. That is fine. I just am concerned that this more established pen maker will get the credit for this while I will be a person who copied a design for an originality contest. I'm wondering if it might be too soon for this person to post theirs. Should I ask them to pull their pen for a few weeks? What is the proper etiquette here. I'm not so much concerned with the design.

 

[Dalecamino]

Why not give it a try? Appeal to this person. Explain your concerns, and weigh the response. Sometimes diplomacy works.

 

[jttheclockman]

No guys I think I phrased my question wrong. I know that I am probably not the first person to arrange multiple wood and metal in a pattern, and I am totally fine, and honestly honored, that someone would see my work and want to copy it. My issue here is this is a pen contest this was entered in. There is almost no doubt about it he copied me. That is fine. I just am concerned that this more established pen maker will get the credit for this while I will be a person who copied a design for an originality contest. I'm wondering if it might be too soon for this person to post theirs. Should I ask them to pull their pen for a few weeks? What is the proper etiquette here. I'm not so much concerned with the design.

Can you tell us where the contest is. Is it Barry Gross's contest or AAW contest or there was one on Facebook? ?? There is one on the UK forum too.We know it is not here because we did not start I am still not following this contest thing. How do you know this person has the same pen if he did not post yet?/ There is no etiquette to a contest. You are challenging an entry. Unless they used the exact colored blanks and material is exact it is not an exact match even though the design maybe the same. We have had contests here with all slimlines so they basically all look alike but different materials maybe used.

The thing is whenever a contest happens usually names are not submitted until winners chosen because names can sway judges or people who are voting such as here when we have contests. So if the case is no names then i would let the pens stand for themselves. You can bring this to the forefront after the contest. Or if you choose notify the judges but do not bring it to light because it makes you sound like a sore loser.

 

[Joebobber]

The person who I think copied me is not in the contest. They happen to live in the area where the contest is however. Heres why I think they may have copied me:
1. My pen was posted online way before theirs showed up for sale on Etsy
2. The order of the woods and metals used is exactly the same as mine, and from looking at their other items for sale, they have never done anything like this before (at least not on Etsy)
3. They live in the same area as the pen contest

I do not wish to identify said contest, or the possible copier. I do not want to cause problems, and I really am more flattered if I am correct. The question was asked because I was unsure how to proceed. If asking this person about it would be wrong. I think when I dont win this contest, (as likely will be the case regardless) I will likely wonder if their pen was seen first. I don't want to hurt the guys reputation by accusing them of something I cant prove. I guess I wanted to know how other people would handle this, and as nothing we do is protected, what is the standard etiquette?

 

[jttheclockman]

The person who I think copied me is not in the contest. They happen to live in the area where the contest is however. Heres why I think they may have copied me:
1. My pen was posted online way before theirs showed up for sale on Etsy
2. The order of the woods and metals used is exactly the same as mine, and from looking at their other items for sale, they have never done anything like this before (at least not on Etsy)
3. They live in the same area as the pen contest

I do not wish to identify said contest, or the possible copier. I do not want to cause problems, and I really am more flattered if I am correct. The question was asked because I was unsure how to proceed. If asking this person about it would be wrong. I think when I dont win this contest, (as likely will be the case regardless) I will likely wonder if their pen was seen first. I don't want to hurt the guys reputation by accusing them of something I cant prove. I guess I wanted to know how other people would handle this, and as nothing we do is protected, what is the standard etiquette?

Not telling you what to do but I would leave it alone. If you know the person you could confront them but how is the judges going to see his pen if he did not enter the contest. As I said there is no standard etiquette when it comes to turning pens. It is a moral thing. Nothing is protected unless you get a patent or copyright and that has been discussed so do not bother. feel honored and work on your next premiere pen and see if he does the same thing. When all this is said and done please show us the pen in question because you piqued my interest.

I gave you my point of view but others may feel different. It will come down to you. Good luck in contest. Hope you enter the contests here when it is Bash time in Feb.

 

[Joebobber]

Great advice, thank you John. I will get a picture of my pen after it is over. I appreciate all the advice from everyone!

 

[Penultimate]

Greetings
I would like to clarify Louie's comments on patents. I've worked with patent attorneys for years and was responsible for IP at my current employer.

You can patent an ornamental design such as the shape of a pen, as long as it doesn't infringe on another design. A design patent lists no claims and basically consists of line drawings of the design. The trick is patenting just the unique ornamental part of the design such as a clip or maybe just part of the section. A competitor can get around a design patent by changing any detail of a competitor's patent. One of our subsidiaries uses design patents to protect their products because the market is product patent saturated. Design patents last 14 years and product patents last 20 years.

Per The USPTO, copyrighted materials consist of written word, art work, videos, and music lyrics, basically anything published.

If your product, that is pen, becomes "iconic" such as the design is closely associated your brand you can apply for a trademark. It takes a long time and it helps if your product was design patented first. For example, do you have have Craftsman hard handled screwdrivers in your toolbox? You know, the ones with clear handles and the ball end? Those handles are trademarked. Trademarks last forever or until you abandon them.


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[MartinPens]

Joe, long response here.

Originality is an interesting and somewhat complicated subject. I had a great conversation with an iconic professional turner once who talked about being prepared for others emulating or "copying" what you perceive as a unique design or concept. You, of course, would need to prove your design was original - but I'm not sure what good that would do you unless it was connected to a business or a pursuit in reputation. If you want credit for originality, then I guess you would have to do your research and make your case.

I came up with a unique design for a pen several years ago and have enjoyed making them. I haven't done extensive research to see if it was "the first" of its kind nor am I interested in doing so. I had an idea and ran with it. I wasn't influenced by something I saw elsewhere. I also knew that once I published it, it might be emulated by others, so I gave mine a name and got a trademark on the name. Others are making similar designs but use different components and methods and have developed tutorials, and even online kits that you can buy.

My first attempts were similar to what I am seeing now, but I didn't like the design with its long pen component stuck in a round piece of wood (thought it looked like a corn dog) and kept working toward something more aesthetically pleasing to me and comfortable to write with. I'm pleased with the result and can hang on to that feeling regardless.

I would ask yourself what your trying to claim or hang on to and why. It's a deep question that can cause one to wrestle with ego or envy.

For me, I felt proud of following my inner inspiration to handcraft a unique pen. I didn't share too many details as a choice, but in the long run that doesn't matter because it isn't rocket science and can be figured out by other craftsman. I'm not certain my particular method is patent worthy nor am I interested in that. But it was unique to me, I called it "Cigar Illusion," I trademarked the name and that's enough to keep it unique and special to me.

Keep turning and enjoying what you do. Cheers!


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