28,781

[Terredax]

.
.
.This is the number of members, but has anyone ever wondered what happened to all these members?

The random photos bring up a lot of people that were active five to ten years ago, but they have all vanished. Does anyone stay in contact with the members from that time frame? Why did they all decide not to return? Are there too many pen makers and they moved on to something else? I haven't noticed that many pen makers selling at any of the events we attend.

I'm sure in the past ten years, that some have moved on...
to a better place.

Is it a cycle? Just in my short time here, I've noticed the active members are different now, than when I joined. There are a few that remain, but mostly new faces.

Are the kit prices getting to high, or maybe the additional materials and tools are getting too high for the hobbyist?

Sorry for the rambling.

I'm just curious what happened to them, after looking through their profiles when their photo comes up.

 

[leehljp]

Pen turning is a unique and interesting hobby as well as income. There are numerous reasons for what you noted through several questions.

1. While fun and interesting, and even profitable, it can get old quick to some people. Numerous time I have read that a pen turner enjoyed making pens until it became work. (been there and done that). Then the joy is gone. Sometimes this person will return after being off a couple of years or so.

2. There are some that moved on to another forum or two. There have been other forums but didn't last very long.

3. Some climb the ladder to commercial sales (and quality at that). I have noticed that these people do a much or more work and sales in fountain pens, which command higher prices because it reaches the higher end clientele.

4. A few have come and moved on due to differences in philosophies. This is seen more in those that are actively involved in discussions than the ones that are occasional posters.

5. There are a few who moved on because of health reasons, either to wood allergies, wood dust, CA or other. Once allergies hit hard, it is difficult to get back into the mood to make pens or contributes to the forum.

These are my few observations and I am sure there are more.

 

[lyonsacc]

Most of the ones that I don't see on the forum as much are due to life changes. Priorities change. Hobbies change. Family responsibilities change. Health changes (I can think of a lot of health ones).
Some are gone who, I suspect, feel that putting up with some of the tougher personalities that have been and/or are here isn't worth the benefit/fellowship of the site.

 

[TonyL]

Forums, groups, etc... are like gym memberships. No matter how good, there is always lots of turnover/attrition.

I used to fly fish 5 days a week. I have absolutely no desire to do it again. I have the same amount of free time and budget. I just got bored of it. I also met some of the best folks in the world....life goes on, but the memories last a lifetime.

 

[dogcatcher]

Some people switch hobbies like they change clothes. They came, they saw, then they moved on. This is a relative cheap hobby, easy to make a few pens for less than $500, then decide it is not their "thing", then sell the equipment and move on to something else. I see it happen quite a bit on other "hobby" and "art" based forums and discussion boards. On one hobby board, the cost of getting started is over $4000, there is almost brand new equipment available for sale at about 60% to 80% of the original prices. At that kind of investment you would assume they had done some of the homework and knew going in they would stick with it, but apparently some did not do their homework.

The there are some that are here only to learn, there really is no reason to be active, as most of the questions have been asked and answered multiple times. Those are still here, just watching to see what is happening.

 

[magpens]

I have noticed the phenomenon highlighted by the OP.

It is at the time of the BASH that the small size of the active membership is most noticeable, I think.

To be more specific, the number of voters in one of the biggest of the 2019 contests was around 200.

By contrast, the number who voted in one of the smallest contests was under 100.

When I say biggest and smallest I am referring to the number of contest entries.

A relevant factor resulting in the IAP membership's decline in activity could be the eventual realization that selling pens is not an easy way to make extra cash.

People view a pen as primarily a functional tool, not a work of art. . You can pick up an admirably functional pen in plenty of places for free, or, at worst, for a few cents in a Dollarama store, which, if you lose it, is not given a second thought.

Since the beginning of the pen-making "hobby", this situation has steadily gotten worse.

I was going to say that, as functional tools, pens are becoming obsolete, but I don't suppose they will ever become actually obsolete. . Still, I think it is true to say that a beautiful pen is not the sort of thing that you showcase in your home as a work of art, or even a cherished possession.

I remember giving one of my cherished first pens to a granddaughter. . She lost it. . Her mother admonished her for being so careless. . Granddaughter replied: "Aww, Mom; it's only a pen !!"

If continuing membership in IAP required renewal every 3 years, I would bet that our current active membership would be below 1000.

There are a few die-hard devotees of the hobby who hang in there for the love of it. . For most, however, the considerable effort and expense required to remain active is not justified.

There are those, of course, who became members to obtain help in getting started and who continue the hobby long-term but who realize that they don't need continuing support and therefore cease to participate in the forums.

Life circumstances change in many ways. . Peoples' capabilities and interests also change with time.

IAP's active membership might in fact be fairly stable in actual numbers; there probably is no good way of knowing at this time. . But as a percentage of total membership, the active membership is, quite obviously, on the decline.

In spite of that, I feel grateful for the participation here of so many truly dedicated and competent pen-makers. . I greatly enjoy their company and contributions.

 

[jttheclockman]

.
.
.This is the number of members, but has anyone ever wondered what happened to all these members?

The random photos bring up a lot of people that were active five to ten years ago, but they have all vanished. Does anyone stay in contact with the members from that time frame? Why did they all decide not to return? Are there too many pen makers and they moved on to something else? I haven't noticed that many pen makers selling at any of the events we attend.

I'm sure in the past ten years, that some have moved on...
to a better place.

Is it a cycle? Just in my short time here, I've noticed the active members are different now, than when I joined. There are a few that remain, but mostly new faces.

Are the kit prices getting to high, or maybe the additional materials and tools are getting too high for the hobbyist?

Sorry for the rambling.

I'm just curious what happened to them, after looking through their profiles when their photo comes up.

John when you decide to leave please do us a favor and let us all know why you are leaving. You ask the $1000 question and Hank gave some valuable reasons but who did what for what reason is anyones guess.

You can reword the question too and ask why is there so many members with 0 or less than 10 posts?? Why did you join in the first place if you are not going to join in. You have access to just about all info even if you don't sign up so it is not a case of just to get info.

 

[mark james]

Another similar statistic are the "Active Members" as identified by the forum software - scroll all the way to the bottom of this page. Current active members = 951.

I am not sure what the criteria is, but I thought it was those members that not just logged on, but actually made a post during either a 6 month or 12 month period.

But, I do know that this total was over 2,000 only a few years ago; now it is below 1,000. So basically, the folks that "contribute" to the conversations, make threads, post pens, vote in contests/polls, and keep the creativity going is 1/2 of what it was a few years ago. If I had to guess, and my opinion only, in a 1-2 month period 95% of the threads/posts/photos will come from less than 200 "truly" active members.

As IAP will be undergoing a visual shift in a few months, I hope all efforts will focus on being inviting, encouraging and non-confrontational to assist in the process of retaining new members and assisting those who ask questions on the new format. The last thing IAP would need is sarcastic responses to logical requests for assistance.

 

[jeff]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.

I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

 

[mark james]

Thanks for the clarification Jeff.

 

[leehljp]

. . . Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

I learned binary in the 11th grade in '63-64, got my first computer in '86, learned HTML in the '90s, (and forgot most) but stayed on large screens until this day. Even large screen smart phones are too small for me today. I despise the acceptance of such small screen real estate! HOWEVER, it is here to stay and I just have to admit it and deal with it. I do believe that a better mobile experience will help considerably.

As to changes with forum software, I hate it but love it. I hate having to learn something new but dang it is so much better if I just try!

Thanks Jeff, for what you do.

 

[mark james]

I would like to sincerely apologize to Jeff as the intent of my post did not come across as I intended.

While I was suggesting that the IAP membership can be of significant assistance in retaining members new and old by the manner we communicate with each other, I did a disservice to the efforts that Jeff is putting in place to make IAP a more vibrant and vital Forum by reflecting a gloomy attitude.

I now have a sticker on my screen: "Think, then type."

 

[jttheclockman]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.

I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

So basically what you are saying us old farts can not keep up with you young whippersnappers so you will leave us in the dust.:biggrin::biggrin: heck I just keep clicking on links and I will find you.

Jeff you of all people should know this gets brought up many times and in fact I know sometime ago I even mentioned what happened to the site and some one else asked "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" if I remember correctly. What is surprising is a relative newbie has asked this question. It must be really obvious.

You also have to realize we live in a different world. Things move much faster and patience is a word that gets buried in the dictionary. You see it every day on the roads and with people with their heads bent over all the time looking at a small screen in their hands. Not aware of where they are walking. They are looking for that next thing to latch onto. If pen turning becomes too hard they move on. I keep coming here hoping to see that next creative mind that helps take us into the next generation of pen making. I hope we do get back to that. I look forward to the new site. Hopefully my outdated computer will be able to receive the new format.

 

[1080Wayne]

I`m with Hank . As long as I can still read it on a large screen , I can adapt to any other change . The small screen users will eventually mature and want a larger one .


Perhaps one other reason some no longer post is that they have changed from making pens to making larger pieces . Once I realized that cutting some large blocks into pen blanks destroyed a lot of the beauty , I did that . Still make a few pens but spend much more time on larger pieces sized to maximize the beauty of the grain . Doesn`t stop me from sticking my oar in if I think I can help someone though . I continue to learn new things from the forum every week .

 

[robutacion]

Coming back to Jeff's closing comment "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" ), it is true, has happened before and will continue to happen because is important that the new generations find IAP as attractive as we did all those years back BUT, younger generations are coming in based on their curiosity and need to find a suitable hobby that will allow them to earn a little extra cash, not everybody has well-paid jobs.

With that said, young generations were brought-up differently than us old farts, I'm not saying that their values a less than ours but what I'm saying is that they have grown-up used to technology and media presence that is and will always be for some of us, difficult to understand and follow, nevertheless, Jeff has always managed to understand the importance of making IAP a place young generations like to join in and continue the work that many of us old-timers have either initiated or continued on from old timers before us and without Jeff's perseverance to accommodate everybody, IAP would have been gone long ago.

I know that I'm trying to say but I may be failing at expressing it and as always endup going around the bush 5 times before I get it or I think I did.

Quite honestly, I don't like changes, I'm the most conservative person I know, I follow one of my own rules that say, "if ain't broken, don't try to fix it...!", but I also know that we need to adapt to new things regardless if we like it or not, for some of us some of those "new things" are totally out of reach of our brains and acceptance and normally, we fight it but for the most part without avail.

Some changes are good and some not so much but we should always consider the possibility that some of the new changes may be beneficial to all of us, old and young so I'm sure Jeff has been working hard to give us the best options available to him taking into consideration all aspects of what keeps IAP heart beating, but with that said, Jeff can't do it all, in my honest opinion, regardless of how IAP is dressed in, there is one thing that will determine IAP's faith in the future and that is/are those "special" members that make the place fun, interesting, exciting and educative, there were some at the time I joined in, in time I continued that legacy and now, we need new members to step in with their fresh minds, experiences and expertise to continue that sort of "work".

Cheers
George

 

[1080Wayne]

Well said , George

 

[cozee]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.

I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

So basically what you are saying us old farts can not keep up with you young whippersnappers so you will leave us in the dust.:biggrin::biggrin: heck I just keep clicking on links and I will find you.

Jeff you of all people should know this gets brought up many times and in fact I know sometime ago I even mentioned what happened to the site and some one else asked "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" if I remember correctly. What is surprising is a relative newbie has asked this question. It must be really obvious.

You also have to realize we live in a different world. Things move much faster and patience is a word that gets buried in the dictionary. You see it every day on the roads and with people with their heads bent over all the time looking at a small screen in their hands. Not aware of where they are walking. They are looking for that next thing to latch onto. If pen turning becomes too hard they move on. I keep coming here hoping to see that next creative mind that helps take us into the next generation of pen making. I hope we do get back to that. I look forward to the new site. Hopefully my outdated computer will be able to receive the new format.

Hear hear! Pushing aside the creative base and knowledge that has brought this craft to the level it is at today is truly a graven mistake. I can remember a time when what existed in this craft was held to be the pinnacle and anything that challenged it was quenched, or at least the attempt was made. Those wanting it ceased was not realizing that it was not going to be done away with but rather expounded upon and taken to new levels. Though not an active participant on pen turning forums and social pages for a number of years, I have been watching. I have seen largely outward growth and less real upward growth as far as pushing the levels of creativity and craftsman ship. Mostly simple variations on a theme . I believe it to be largely as a modern day, technological issue. When people rely so much on technology to guide them, they need to think for themselves less and less. it has become a "feed me" society.

 

[wolf creek knives]

I've been enjoying the niceness of this back and forth thread. I won't interject my feelings into any of anyone else's thoughts or what they've written. I can agree with a lot of them. However, I think the IAP has a significant name recognition for some and here's my example. There's another pen turner in Montana who is a member. Never posted anything on the site and his statistics show that only once has he been on the site after he joined. So I went to his "Made in Montana" site and looked him up. Big and Bold on his booth banner is "Member, International Association of Pen Turners" Puts it on his business cards too. He uses the name and logo to his advantage to imply whatever he wants. I think maybe a lot of other "members" do the same but these are just my trivial thoughts.

 

[leehljp]

I would like to sincerely apologize to Jeff as the intent of my post did not come across as I intended.

While I was suggesting that the IAP membership can be of significant assistance in retaining members new and old by the manner we communicate with each other, I did a disservice to the efforts that Jeff is putting in place to make IAP a more vibrant and vital Forum by reflecting a gloomy attitude.

I now have a sticker on my screen: "Think, then type."

In the spirit of the always humble and always diplomatic Mark James (and I mean just that), my own rant above was aimed against myself, not at the forums change or need for change. Among my co-workers when I lived overseas and back here, my peers always ask me why I am so lenient with the young ones and strict with my peers (my age group). Me: 1. Our age (meaning me) should know better, the younger ones haven't learned yet; 2. They are more teachable than I am! :biggrin:

 

[EBorraga]

I think people tend to get bored with pens. They are fun in the beginning, but to sustain that enthusiasm over the years is very tough. Especially if you aren't having much luck selling them. I tend to think guys branch out to other woodworking avenues. I typically only make pens during the colder months. My job and other Hobby takes up most of my time once the weather gets nice. I'm typically at the race track every Friday and Saturday night starting in April and all the way through September. I still cast a fair amount of blanks during the summer. But rarely make a pen.

 

[jttheclockman]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.

I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

So basically what you are saying us old farts can not keep up with you young whippersnappers so you will leave us in the dust.:biggrin::biggrin: heck I just keep clicking on links and I will find you.

Jeff you of all people should know this gets brought up many times and in fact I know sometime ago I even mentioned what happened to the site and some one else asked "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" if I remember correctly. What is surprising is a relative newbie has asked this question. It must be really obvious.

You also have to realize we live in a different world. Things move much faster and patience is a word that gets buried in the dictionary. You see it every day on the roads and with people with their heads bent over all the time looking at a small screen in their hands. Not aware of where they are walking. They are looking for that next thing to latch onto. If pen turning becomes too hard they move on. I keep coming here hoping to see that next creative mind that helps take us into the next generation of pen making. I hope we do get back to that. I look forward to the new site. Hopefully my outdated computer will be able to receive the new format.

Hear hear! Pushing aside the creative base and knowledge that has brought this craft to the level it is at today is truly a graven mistake. I can remember a time when what existed in this craft was held to be the pinnacle and anything that challenged it was quenched, or at least the attempt was made. Those wanting it ceased was not realizing that it was not going to be done away with but rather expounded upon and taken to new levels. Though not an active participant on pen turning forums and social pages for a number of years, I have been watching. I have seen largely outward growth and less real upward growth as far as pushing the levels of creativity and craftsman ship. Mostly simple variations on a theme . I believe it to be largely as a modern day, technological issue. When people rely so much on technology to guide them, they need to think for themselves less and less. it has become a "feed me" society.

Agree with this 100%

 

[Xel]

As new/young turners haven't had the luxury of having lived any other way yet, I do wonder if denigrating the times we now find ourselves in is the most effective way to encourage them to contribute.

 

[jttheclockman]

As new/young turners haven't had the luxury of having lived any other way yet, I do wonder if denigrating the times we now find ourselves in is the most effective way to encourage them to contribute.

Are we really that sensitive????? Come on now. Facts are facts and the people who answered here are just pointing things out and answering the question honestly put forth to them. Those same young people you speak of will be saying the same things in years to come and so will the cycle of life go on. Change over here will continue as it does on every forum on the net.

 

[Xel]

Those same young people you speak of will be saying the same things in years to come and so will the cycle of life go on.

No doubt they will. That's the nature of things. And with luck they'll be empathetic enough to remember when the generation(s) before them complained about the shortcomings of the present times, which is all they've known, and how that felt to hear. Would that increase your desire to engage? I'd bet not.

This is a public forum - where (as you pointed out) people can read responses without having an account. If we're truly concerned about building a welcoming community, we might start by looking at the ways we're not a welcoming community. It's hard, but that's the responsibility of those who know better. That kind of reflection means taking a long, unbiased look at our behaviors without bringing red herrings like "sensitivity" into the discussion. It makes little sense to complain about traffic when we're sitting in it, as if we're not part of the problem.

 

[jttheclockman]

Those same young people you speak of will be saying the same things in years to come and so will the cycle of life go on.

No doubt they will. That's the nature of things. And with luck they'll be empathetic enough to remember when the generation(s) before them complained about the shortcomings of the present times, which is all they've known, and how that felt to hear. Would that increase your desire to engage? I'd bet not.

This is a public forum - where (as you pointed out) people can read responses without having an account. If we're truly concerned about building a welcoming community, we might start by looking at the ways we're not a welcoming community. It's hard, but that's the responsibility of those who know better. That kind of reflection means taking a long, unbiased look at our behaviors without bringing red herrings like "sensitivity" into the discussion. It makes little sense to complain about traffic when we're sitting in it, as if we're not part of the problem.

Whatever.

 

[MRDucks2]

Renee has a point. It's not about being "sensitive". It's about making a quick decision to go elsewhere in the ether of the WWW if you do not feel welcome where you are at.

This may be a great pen turning forum, but it isn't the only one. 28,781 have signed up to see what it was all about. Evidently 10-15% used to stick around. Now less than 5% do.

As a newer member, I can attest that there is a core group on here that, regardless of their skills and knowledge, tend to respond unnecessarily strong to some things. You welcomed me in a similar manner, but I didn't shy away.

There are those who, with similar responses, will likely decide to not come back. Not because they are being sensitive, but simply they feel that it is not worth their time to try and figure out some old guy they do not understand having a bunch of negative comments about their question when they are simply trying to learn. They can click another link, go to another site and ask the same question getting answers without feeling attacked or dumbed down.

There are many folks on here that help others gracefully. But if one of the folks who choose not too sink their teeth into a newer member too soon or too often, why would they stay.

By the same token, those who seem harsh do not always intend to be. While they may have great turning skills, they lack the skills to communicate with written words in a public forum.

A the welcome sign to Hartford, KY used to say "Home of 2000 happy people and a few soreheads." IAP is likely the same. The difference is the size of the road each is on. Hartford may get 10,000 people a year visit. IAP May get that in a week.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[cozee]

Those same young people you speak of will be saying the same things in years to come and so will the cycle of life go on.

No doubt they will. That's the nature of things. And with luck they'll be empathetic enough to remember when the generation(s) before them complained about the shortcomings of the present times, which is all they've known, and how that felt to hear. Would that increase your desire to engage? I'd bet not.

This is a public forum - where (as you pointed out) people can read responses without having an account. If we're truly concerned about building a welcoming community, we might start by looking at the ways we're not a welcoming community. It's hard, but that's the responsibility of those who know better. That kind of reflection means taking a long, unbiased look at our behaviors without bringing red herrings like "sensitivity" into the discussion. It makes little sense to complain about traffic when we're sitting in it, as if we're not part of the problem.

With luck. That is the issue. I am finding more and more, everyday, that the younger generations today are less receptive to what the older generations have to impart, than my generation had towards our elders. Seems they already know it all.

 

[lyonsacc]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.

I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

So basically what you are saying us old farts can not keep up with you young whippersnappers so you will leave us in the dust.:biggrin::biggrin: heck I just keep clicking on links and I will find you.

Jeff you of all people should know this gets brought up many times and in fact I know sometime ago I even mentioned what happened to the site and some one else asked "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" if I remember correctly. What is surprising is a relative newbie has asked this question. It must be really obvious.

You also have to realize we live in a different world. Things move much faster and patience is a word that gets buried in the dictionary. You see it every day on the roads and with people with their heads bent over all the time looking at a small screen in their hands. Not aware of where they are walking. They are looking for that next thing to latch onto. If pen turning becomes too hard they move on. I keep coming here hoping to see that next creative mind that helps take us into the next generation of pen making. I hope we do get back to that. I look forward to the new site. Hopefully my outdated computer will be able to receive the new format.

Hear hear! Pushing aside the creative base and knowledge that has brought this craft to the level it is at today is truly a graven mistake. I can remember a time when what existed in this craft was held to be the pinnacle and anything that challenged it was quenched, or at least the attempt was made. Those wanting it ceased was not realizing that it was not going to be done away with but rather expounded upon and taken to new levels. Though not an active participant on pen turning forums and social pages for a number of years, I have been watching. I have seen largely outward growth and less real upward growth as far as pushing the levels of creativity and craftsman ship. Mostly simple variations on a theme . I believe it to be largely as a modern day, technological issue. When people rely so much on technology to guide them, they need to think for themselves less and less. it has become a "feed me" society.

For those of you that may feel "pushed aside" or "left in the dust": Do you realize that websites/forums HAVE TO CHANGE? Software needs upgraded and hardware becomes dated and wears out. If I have read some of Jeff's posts correctly, this Forum will crash - maybe within a few months - if these changes don't happen. He is doing what he has to do to keep this Forum up and running.

It sounds like he is making every reasonable effort to preserve everything that is here.

Will everything go smoothly? Probably not. There seem to always be issues with transitions like this. Will we all get frustrated because we have to learn a new way to make a post or upload a picture? I'm sure we will. But, having to learn your way around a newly designed forum is better than not having one at all.

Maybe I have misinterpreted your comments. But if the Forum doesn't change it will likely disappear.

 

[cozee]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.



I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

So basically what you are saying us old farts can not keep up with you young whippersnappers so you will leave us in the dust.:biggrin::biggrin: heck I just keep clicking on links and I will find you.



Jeff you of all people should know this gets brought up many times and in fact I know sometime ago I even mentioned what happened to the site and some one else asked "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" if I remember correctly. What is surprising is a relative newbie has asked this question. It must be really obvious.



You also have to realize we live in a different world. Things move much faster and patience is a word that gets buried in the dictionary. You see it every day on the roads and with people with their heads bent over all the time looking at a small screen in their hands. Not aware of where they are walking. They are looking for that next thing to latch onto. If pen turning becomes too hard they move on. I keep coming here hoping to see that next creative mind that helps take us into the next generation of pen making. I hope we do get back to that. I look forward to the new site. Hopefully my outdated computer will be able to receive the new format.

Hear hear! Pushing aside the creative base and knowledge that has brought this craft to the level it is at today is truly a graven mistake. I can remember a time when what existed in this craft was held to be the pinnacle and anything that challenged it was quenched, or at least the attempt was made. Those wanting it ceased was not realizing that it was not going to be done away with but rather expounded upon and taken to new levels. Though not an active participant on pen turning forums and social pages for a number of years, I have been watching. I have seen largely outward growth and less real upward growth as far as pushing the levels of creativity and craftsman ship. Mostly simple variations on a theme . I believe it to be largely as a modern day, technological issue. When people rely so much on technology to guide them, they need to think for themselves less and less. it has become a "feed me" society.

For those of you that may feel "pushed aside" or "left in the dust": Do you realize that websites/forums HAVE TO CHANGE? Software needs upgraded and hardware becomes dated and wears out. If I have read some of Jeff's posts correctly, this Forum will crash - maybe within a few months - if these changes don't happen. He is doing what he has to do to keep this Forum up and running.



It sounds like he is making every reasonable effort to preserve everything that is here.



Will everything go smoothly? Probably not. There seem to always be issues with transitions like this. Will we all get frustrated because we have to learn a new way to make a post or upload a picture? I'm sure we will. But, having to learn your way around a newly designed forum is better than not having one at all.



Maybe I have misinterpreted your comments. But if the Forum doesn't change it will likely disappear.

Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[cozee]

Yep, you definitely misinterpreted my comments. I in no way feel pushed aside or left in the dust, quite the contrary actually. I am all for tech changes, but those changes in no way guarantee quality input and advancement of the craft. I can remember a time where someone would post something innovative and most would head to their shops to try to figure out how it was done. Today, most want you to spoon feed them and show them how it was done. If they cannot find the tech to tell them, they cannot produce.


Sent from my iPhone using Penturners.org mobile app

 

[Xel]

With luck. That is the issue. I am finding more and more, everyday, that the younger generations today are less receptive to what the older generations have to impart, than my generation had towards our elders. Seems they already know it all.

Hmm, I do hope it doesn't look like I'm advocating discarding the wisdom of the older generation. If so, then my comments have also been misinterpreted. I would think that remaining here, actively posting, indicates the kind of character that doesn't "already know it all" and also trusts that I can "answer questions honestly put forth". IAP isn't a pen convention where one pays to get in, or a private gathering between comrades to shoot the **** over drinks. Our words are our faces here, as ambassadors of the craft. It's a lot of additional work to maintain a public persona, as I would suspect you'd know from founding the MPG (which I am excited to attend for the first time this year, so thank you for that). Regardless of whether one believes in ignorance being the burden of the ignorant, it makes sense that if we're going to fuss at the guests in our house, in front of our family and their friends, expect they won't want to stay the night.

As a new member who had a similar experience as Mike and has also NOT been scared off yet, I'm attempting to point out that this receptiveness you speak of ought to go both ways if we all want change.

... after all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? :wink:

 

[jttheclockman]

I will tell you this I lost total meaning to this entire thread and the words being thrown around are way above my head.

Here is another thread that just started and it can easily parallel this one if you go back to the OP original posting.

It is not only this site which happens to be a hobby pen turning site but the same issues are showing up elsewhere and yes there are monetary views to those downward spiral events but many of the same facts can be used there as well as here.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/observation-159405/

 

[magpens]

Renee and Mike ....

Glad you two relative newbies have suffered through the "initiation stages" of your IAP membership, are hanging in there still, and have no intentions of abandoning this "home".

Let me assure you that you are supremely welcome. . In addition, WE NEED YOU.

Let me also apologize on the part of any "old" members here who might have seemed to have had a less than welcoming attitude. . You have to just ignore anything that comes across as off-putting, no matter who it comes from. . Most never intend to be that way and deserve to be forgiven. . Thank you for doing that as required.

If you have to do so, there is an "ignore" feature which you can activate by clicking on the User CP item at the top.

Also, thank you for putting out the welcome mat for others who have followed you in joining IAP.

Finally, please forgive me if I have at any time been less than welcoming. I don't think I have been that way towards either of you. . After all, I am no expert, don't pretend to be, and I also frequently need the patience and encouragement of the IAP membership myself. . But I was indeed in a bad mood at one time towards one new member; I regret that, apologized at the time, and now enjoy a good relationship with that person, as far as I know. . That does occasionally happen. . If that person reads this he will remember. . Sometimes for us old guys, the challenges of communicating on the internet are a little more than we can comfortably handle with our "slow poke" backgrounds.

 

[PenPal]

Life is like this discussion,in a meeting once I attended in the USA a guy came in late for a meeting where there was a sitting allocation in order of appointment. He looked around the room then remarked first your Green ,then you are Ripe,then you are Rotten.

If we are stage driven this is the fate. If we are age driven misunderstandings arise, in the words so often quoted what can you do to add to your membership.

Have I done worthwhile contributions, no expectation of rewards in a spirit of sharing.

Speaking as one so far from the source of this forum,time differences,value of dollar purchases etc all have effects on participation.

I think I am one of the few who state their age,clear location because I am who I am,here I am. Heaven alone knows all the words we use have other meanings even 100 miles from where we live.

Thank you for the efforts of those who welcome change and embrace the future because this is where we live, the here and now.

Kind regards Peter.

 

[Alan Morrison]

I joined this forum just a couple of months ago and not only got a great welcome from members but have availed myself of the excellent library. I asked a few questions and got speedy and informative replies.
I may not post too much here as I spent a lot of time at the uk site which I only found after joining this one, but continue to log in here practically on a daily basis.
You have a wealth of information here for which I am most grateful
Many thanks
Alan

 

[jttheclockman]

The Active Users count is the number of unique users who have visited in the last 14 days. I just changed that to 30 days to see what the number is, but it won't get regenerated until tonight.

I had to laugh when I read this thread. I've been sitting here all day (really, since 7:30am) working on the forum migration, and then I get the feeling that maybe I should be out fly fishing instead :biggrin: Like the poor guy who opened up a general store in an old west town the day before they announced that the train wouldn't be stopping any more. Nevertheless, we shall press on. I believe that a fresher, more modern and functional environment will help bring in and retain new members. Plus a better mobile experience will help too. (However, I am 110% sure that a new user interface will drive off some old friends who miss the way it was. :frown: "Those guys at IAP changed everything and RUINED it!" )

So basically what you are saying us old farts can not keep up with you young whippersnappers so you will leave us in the dust.:biggrin::biggrin: heck I just keep clicking on links and I will find you.

Jeff you of all people should know this gets brought up many times and in fact I know sometime ago I even mentioned what happened to the site and some one else asked "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" if I remember correctly. What is surprising is a relative newbie has asked this question. It must be really obvious.

You also have to realize we live in a different world. Things move much faster and patience is a word that gets buried in the dictionary. You see it every day on the roads and with people with their heads bent over all the time looking at a small screen in their hands. Not aware of where they are walking. They are looking for that next thing to latch onto. If pen turning becomes too hard they move on. I keep coming here hoping to see that next creative mind that helps take us into the next generation of pen making. I hope we do get back to that. I look forward to the new site. Hopefully my outdated computer will be able to receive the new format.

Hear hear! Pushing aside the creative base and knowledge that has brought this craft to the level it is at today is truly a graven mistake. I can remember a time when what existed in this craft was held to be the pinnacle and anything that challenged it was quenched, or at least the attempt was made. Those wanting it ceased was not realizing that it was not going to be done away with but rather expounded upon and taken to new levels. Though not an active participant on pen turning forums and social pages for a number of years, I have been watching. I have seen largely outward growth and less real upward growth as far as pushing the levels of creativity and craftsman ship. Mostly simple variations on a theme . I believe it to be largely as a modern day, technological issue. When people rely so much on technology to guide them, they need to think for themselves less and less. it has become a "feed me" society.

For those of you that may feel "pushed aside" or "left in the dust": Do you realize that websites/forums HAVE TO CHANGE? Software needs upgraded and hardware becomes dated and wears out. If I have read some of Jeff's posts correctly, this Forum will crash - maybe within a few months - if these changes don't happen. He is doing what he has to do to keep this Forum up and running.

It sounds like he is making every reasonable effort to preserve everything that is here.

Will everything go smoothly? Probably not. There seem to always be issues with transitions like this. Will we all get frustrated because we have to learn a new way to make a post or upload a picture? I'm sure we will. But, having to learn your way around a newly designed forum is better than not having one at all.

Maybe I have misinterpreted your comments. But if the Forum doesn't change it will likely disappear.

I do not believe that was the topic in this thread about forum being upgraded. All forums outgrow its usefulness and need to be updated.

The conversation is about the lack of participation or involvement in the site and people leaving. We are living in a different world than even 10 years ago.

 

[cozee]

Hmm, I do hope it doesn't look like I'm advocating discarding the wisdom of the older generation. If so, then my comments have also been misinterpreted. I would think that remaining here, actively posting, indicates the kind of character that doesn't "already know it all" and also trusts that I can "answer questions honestly put forth". IAP isn't a pen convention where one pays to get in, or a private gathering between comrades to shoot the **** over drinks. Our words are our faces here, as ambassadors of the craft. It's a lot of additional work to maintain a public persona, as I would suspect you'd know from founding the MPG (which I am excited to attend for the first time this year, so thank you for that). Regardless of whether one believes in ignorance being the burden of the ignorant, it makes sense that if we're going to fuss at the guests in our house, in front of our family and their friends, expect they won't want to stay the night.

As a new member who had a similar experience as Mike and has also NOT been scared off yet, I'm attempting to point out that this receptiveness you speak of ought to go both ways if we all want change.

... after all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? :wink:

Oh no, I am not taking you that way. Just stating what I see and it isn't just here. It is everywhere. I have no issues with change unless it brings about disrespect. Receptiveness does go both ways, for the host and the guests!