Whadaya think?? Scrimshaw

[ed4copies]

Here's the question:

What constitutes "scrimshaw"?

I have several pens I turned from alternative ivory. THEN, I sent them to Ken to have them engraved with a pattern (ship and other). In some cases, he also engraved the same on the box.

I am FREQUENTLY asked if this is "scrimshaw". I reply that it is laser engraved, I do not have the talent to freehand that detail. So ends the conversation and the pen remains MINE -- NOT my GOAL!!!

So, is laser engraving a version of "scrimshaw"?? Do we call it "automated scrimshaw"??

I treasure my honesty, so what's an HONEST answer that will not lose the sale???

 

[marcruby]

If you're losing a sale because it's laser engraved then your customers are telling you it ain't scrimshaw, unfortunately. I think it's better to be up front rather than have a pen come back because they figured out it was done by a laser. Scrimshaw has an innate value because it is manually done and can command premium prices.

I'd talk to them about the labor and process of laser engraving, emphasize that the work is in limited editions. You might even mention that a true scrimshaw pen would be about 5 times as expensive, if not more.

Or, get a couple of engraving burins (I think that's what they're called) and go nuts.

Marc

 

[turned_for_good]

I wouldn't technically call it scrimshaw, but I tend to be a traditionalist on things like this. I think a good opinion to seek on this would be to ask Ken what his opinion is about it. Does he do scrimshaw/ laser art, or does he just do laser art.

 

[Sylvanite]

I do laser engraving on a variety of materials. I call it laser engraving, not scrimshaw, pyrography, nor scrollwork - because it isn't.

 

[DCBluesman]

I'm of the opinion that laser-engraved alternate ivory can be called scrimshaw just as much as the traditional etched whalebone can.

Scrimshaw originally referred to the shipboard practice of sailors creating common tools from whale bones. Only later was the word scrimshaw used to refer to the works of art created by these whalers in their spare time. Over time, the meaning has slid further to include engraving on ivory or bone. (Ivory was not commonly used in 19th century scrimshaw.)

While some scrimshanders (makers of this artwork) often acquire pre-ban, legal ivory or bone for their art, scrimshaw is highly susceptible to the use of contraband. Now, the Endangered Species Act and international conventions restrict the harvest and sale of ivory and bone to try to reverse the scarcity of ivory-bearing animals.

Using alternate ivory is "green" and laser engraving is etching. Laser-engraved alternate ivory is scrimshaw.

That's my story and my customers accept it.

 

[ed4copies]

Lou,

Could you send me a few of your customers, please.

THANKS!!!!

 

[marcruby]

Could rubber stampings be called calligraphy?

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

As some of you know I had Ken Engrave an antler pen I called "Trail of Tears" and last night I posted another antler Emperor I said was a scrimshawed feather. To set the record straight the pen last night IS SCRIMSHAW done by a very well know scrimshaw artist Jessie Ghere Feather and the person who bought the engraved pen knows it was engraved and whoever buys the scrimshaw pen will know who did the scrimshaw. But I do agree with Lou that any type of scratching be it by machine or hand tool could be called scrimshaw.
From the Websters New World Dictionary:
scrim-shaw: 1. carving done on shells, bone, ivory, etc 2. an article or articles so made.

 

[Chasper]

If the art is done with a scrimshaw look and it is on something that looks like bone or ivory, then it is scrimshaw. I've sold lots of "scrimshaw" on small pieces of mammoth tusk. I called it scrimshaw and no one every pointed out that old time sailors did not have access to ancient mammoth tusks.

What is "scrimshaw look?" Art that is created with lots of small lines or scratches that collectively make up an illustration. The lines are all different widths, depths and legnths. Computer generated art with clean lines, shaded areas and broad dark backgrounds is not scrimshaw, but scrimshaw look art that is applied with a computer driven laser engraver is still scrimshaw.

 

[ed4copies]

EDITORIAL:

We (the penmaking community) determine the "trade-specific lingo". I opened this topic because I would LIKE to believe this is a TYPE of scrimshaw. NOW, what WE agree to call it, determines what it is called!!

My point was NOT to degrade ANY pens that have been done in ANY style. I do not have the talent to hand-engrave. HOWEVER, the pens that Ken, Dawn and I collaborate to produce ARE REPRESENTATIVE of the scrimshaw process or the prospective customer would not be ASKING the question!! So, call it "affordable scrimshaw" or "Green scrimshaw" (No ivory taken from animals) or whatever. But, let's put an honest, yet market-pleasing name on it!!!

Suggestions encouraged!
Comments encouraged- the above is opinion, not fact- you are allowed to have one that differs from mine and we can still be friends!!!!! (I miss Eagle)

 

[marcruby]

How about something like 'fine engraving by Kallenshaan Woods' or something like that. And in tiny print say 'limited to xx copies' Sounds nice and snooty to me.

But, let's put an honest, yet market-pleasing name on it!!!
Suggestions encouraged!

 

[rincewind03060]

Scrimshaw is a traditional folk art and is by definition hand engraved (etched?).
Calling laser engraving (etching?) "scrimshaw" is like calling something you printed on an ink jet a "watercolor".

Tell them that this is limited edition (or one-of-a-kind) laser art in the scrimshaw style.

Personally, I think most scrimshaw looks crude and would much prefer laser art. But I've been called a Philistine before this.

 

[GoodTurns]

how about scamshaw? ducks, runs for cover, giggling.....

 

[ed4copies]

how about scamshaw? ducks, runs for cover, giggling.....

The "return of the bird!!"

Thanks, I needed that today!!

 

[wdcav1952]

The laptop I have here in Hawaii is slow so I only checked dictionary.com and websters online. Neither source mandates hand done to qualify as scrimshaw. If you want to get totally technical, scrimshaw is impossible today as I would imagine all of the 19th century whalers have died out.

I would consider your product to be "laser enhanced scrimshaw." You selected and/or designed the scrimshaw pattern and had it enhanced with a laser engraving technique.

BTW, Ed, if Eagle was still alive you would have permanently ringing ears on this subject!!!!!!:biggrin:

 

[ed4copies]

Cav,

I would have a "permanently ringing" PHONE!!!!!

Dawn never did learn to ignore it!

Yeah, he'd a had a few words, but we DID have this discussion and STAYED FRIENDS! as you know!

 

[jskeen]

I'll offer up the facts first then the opinion. From Webster's new universal unabridged dictionary, cw1989;

scrimshaw: 1. a carved or engraved article, esp. of whale ivory, whalebone, walrus tusks, and the like, made by whalemen as a leisure occupation. 2. such articles or work collectively. 3. The art or technique of carving or engraving whale ivory, whalebone, walrus tusks, ect. 4. to produce scrimshaw 5. to carve or engrave (whale ivory or whalebone) into scrimshaw


Article 1 makes no distinction between work engraved with a sailmakers needle and rubbed with squid ink, or work engraved by a cnc laser, but does specify that it be done by a whaler in his spare time. (this I think can fairly be ignored, working whalers being in chronic short supply) It also gives enough latitude in material {e.g. "and the like"} to include modern alternative ivory.

I would have no problem describing a modern laser engraved alt ivory pen as "scrimshaw". however you would need to be prepared to encounter fairly vociferous objections to the practice from anyone involved in the sale or preparation of "hand etched" scrimshaw. Prepared responses to these objections can range from "I'm sorry that we choose to disagree on this subject" to "yeah, well screw you and the horse you rode in on" depending on your mood at the moment.

 

[ed4copies]

James,

Just one question: "How good looking IS the horse he rode in on???"

 

[laserturner]

Hi to all,
I do not and never will refer to my laser engraving on antler, alternate ivory or any other natural or man made material as scrimschaw work. I've refered to it as simulated schrimshaw or laser engraving with a scrimshaw look. I also don't refer to the ability to transfer an image from a computer to a laser engraver and then to a pen surface as art. I look at it as technology. Penmakers like Grayson Tighe have used scrimshanders like Bob Hergert (check out his website to see some phenominal work at www.scrimshander.com) to make some amazing pens. In my opinion, what I do with a laser engraver doesn't come close to true scrimshaw work and I would hope that the people who use my services for engraving their pens would promote them as what they are; laser engraved pens.

 

[ed4copies]

As the Brits would say, "Thanks for that, Ken!!"

However, pens with the lettering "PRO-COPY, INC" are "laser engraved pens". The work you do, Ken, is far more professional. So, to call it by the same name is also misleading.

As an "industry" we need to establish a "standard terminology" for this process, recognizing YOUR expertise is certainly greater than the "one line of type for $5" as well as the hand-craftsmanship of the "base pen".

So, let's continue the conversation, please.

 

[marcruby]

Oh Wow! What I would give to have Tighe's work on on of my pens. That's to die for...

Marc

 

[gketell]

Marc,

Bob Hergert does the scrimshaw work referenced above. Tighe makes "pens" that are definitely high-art themselves. http://www.tighepen.com/

I would be wonderously happy to have a Hergert scrimshaw piece OR a Tighe pen!

GK

 

[ed4copies]

Easy Greg,

Sell three dozen of YOUR pens (Or mine or anyone else here) and buy ONE of his.

 

[BRobbins629]

I'm with Ken on this one. When scrimshaw was invented, there were no lasers capable of carving pens. Technology has provided us a means to decorate pens that look similar to scrimshaw and enable less gifted artists to make nice art, but are not the real deal. Someone who would be interested in buying a pen because it has scrimshaw as part of the pen, would not be very happy if deceived. Someone who is buying the pen because they like the look and design probably wouldn't care.

 

[Chasper]

Ed,
So you are looking for a new word to describe scrimshaw and the theory is that if it is not so misleading that it sounds phony but still be nice enough to be market-pleasing. I like that idea, and I see the need for some new language. "Green" scrimshaw makes a point but is too trendy and I feel the word is awkward to use. "Affordable" scrimshaw puts too much emphasis on price, we might be sorry we picked that word when someone wants to sell one of these new scrimshaws for a high price. How about one of these:
Cultured scrimshaw (connative of "cultured" pearls)
Classic scrimshaw (classic is always classic, it can mean whatever you want it to mean)
Traditional scrimshaw
Conventional scrimshaw
Ancestural scrimshaw (to conjour up something about how they used to do it)
Passe scrimshaw (for the snobs among us)
Paradigmatic scrimshaw (as in one type of something that substitutes for another type)

We need a new word in the pen maker/seller lexicon and the right word will be worth $ over time.

 

[ed4copies]

If you take the "purist" view, there is not a lot of whalebone, so it's unlikely you will see real scrimshaw ANYWHERE!!

So, what do we call it???

Except for Noah, I never heard of a herd of deer or elephants on ships, either - so that disqualifies THOSE products.

So, what do we call what??????

 

[ed4copies]

Gerry,

I typed while you did. The above was not a response to you. Thank-you for a well-reasoned answer.

Hope we get more tonight!!!

 

[wdcav1952]

James,

Just one question: "How good looking IS the horse he rode in on???"

Ed, I also have one question: Why are you interested in the looks of a horse??????????????????????????????

 

[marcruby]

You know, Ed, it suddenly occurred to me that your problem isn't what to call laser engraving but that the general opinion is that it really is 'scamshaw.' I think most people, confronted with the price of a real scrimshaw pen would be happy to pay less for something that's really 90% as good. I did some figuring and scrimshaw by a known artist could as something like $500 to $2000 to the price of a pen. And that's before you add in your own profits margin.

Instead of just labelling it as 'laser engraving' talk up the real deal a limited edition pen is for someone who is just buying the pen for it's good looks. Me, I think I'm going to get that 'how do do scrimshaw' video. It might be fun!

Marc

 

[thewishman]

While the dictionary definition allows for laser engraving to be called scrimshaw, I do not think of laser engraving as scrimshaw. Zig Ziglar says, "Words paint pictures" in your mind. The pictures for scrimshaw and laser engraving in MY head are very different.

Since the question has been asked, that indicates there is doubt. To take advantage of a technical definition reeks of sophistry.

(Climbing down from my high horse (not a very attractive horse).)

 

[avbill]

Ed and the gang

"Modern scrimshaw"

 

[ed4copies]

Dawn made an interesting point last night, as we drove home.

Scrimshaw was originated on whaling ships, so the meaning of the word has already evolved. Further evolution is not sacriligious.

However, I prefer NOT to use the exact same terminology. I would like to develop a new word or phrase that specifically identifies laser cutting on PENS.

Scrimshaw was done on much larger pieces - knifehandles, etc. So, the detail could be maintained. To do a picture on a pen REQUIRES lines that are VERY close to each other. IF this were to be done, freehand, it would probably be most easily accomplished with a rotary tool. So, the rotary tool method is another evolution of the term "scrimshaw".

I don't want to MISLEAD any customer. I think Chasper's analysis above hits the nail firmly on the head.

My buddy Lou sent an e-mail suggesting "Noveau Scrimshaw". I might adjust that to "Scrimshaw Noveau" as in "Art Noveau".

So, what do YOU think - this thread has LOTS of opinions - yours is JUST as VALUABLE as anyone else.

EXPRESS YOURSELF!!!​

 

[avbill]

OH ED!

This is a very good topic especialy as I start my first design. Starting with a black & white ink drawing - when scanning the image to be used in a engraver-lacer. I see no reason not to call it Modern scrimshaw

 

[THarvey]

Explain that it is a Conservation Friendly product.

Alternate Scrimshaw on Alternate Ivory.

Be sure to note: "no alternates were harmed in the harvesting of the ivory.":tongue:

 

[waynewright]

My to cents is that it is always the best policy to describe accurately and honestly the materials, plating, and any other factors that are involved when we make our pens and offering them for sale to the public. You may loose some sales, but if you take time to reconsider how you want to position the best assets of your work or ideas you will come out ahead in the end with a lot less problems.

wayne

 

[jdoug5170]

It seems to me that since many of us use Ken for engraving our pens, and we recognize his abilities to be greater than some others when it comes to getting the computer and laser to do what he/we wish that we should honor his work and call it as he does.

It is misleading and evasive to try to call laser engraving scrimshaw of any type. Would you represent your alt ivory as the real thing?

Doug

 

[ed4copies]

It seems to me that since many of us use Ken for engraving our pens, and we recognize his abilities to be greater than some others when it comes to getting the computer and laser to do what he/we wish that we should honor his work and call it as he does.

It is misleading and evasive to try to call laser engraving scrimshaw of any type. Would you represent your alt ivory as the real thing?

Doug

There is NO ivory in my alternate ivory, so am I lying???

If you put a phone number in your pen, it can be laser engraved. Is that representative of the quality of Ken's work???? NO. So, words have meaning, but meanings evolve.

WE are the hand-made pen industry. WE CAN decide what to call it. Over time, it WILL be the accepted terminology. GET CREATIVE!!!

 

[IPD_Mrs]

Why do we need a name? The work/art/design/craftsmanship sells itself. If you start telling the buying customer too much then they get confused and walk away from the sale. It is one thing to be an informed buyer and quite another to be a buyer and have BS flowing out your orifices!

Mike

 

[maxwell_smart007]

I think that if you're imitating the 'style' of scrimshaw, but using lasers, it should be 'alternative ivory pen in scrimshaw style'.

If you're using carving tools, then you can legitimately say that you're using the technique of scrimshaw...

If you're using lasers, you're imitating scrimshaw artificially...there is no actual carving done on the blank by human hands...

So that's my take on it - scrimshaw style, or imitation scrimshaw...or etched in scrimshaw style....and give a good write-up on the history of scrimshaw, and your modern translation of scrimshaw into a fine writing implement...

No one can be unhappy if they know the whole truth going in...it's how you sell that truth that determines the sale, in my mind...but then, I don't really sell pens, so take all this with a grain of salt.

Andrew

Andrew

 

[ed4copies]

While the dictionary definition allows for laser engraving to be called scrimshaw, I do not think of laser engraving as scrimshaw. Zig Ziglar says, "Words paint pictures" in your mind. The pictures for scrimshaw and laser engraving in MY head are very different.

Since the question has been asked, that indicates there is doubt. To take advantage of a technical definition reeks of sophistry.

(Climbing down from my high horse (not a very attractive horse).)

So, Chris, when you visualize "laser engraving" is it a line of type? Or is it a pen barrel that has to be revolved to accomodate a complicated scene? Certainly you would not use the same, generic term to describe BOTH, would you??????? Think how inaccurate that would be!!!

The whole debate resonates with me, my friend!!!:beauty::beauty: