Site Support

[DocStram]

Jeff
I only joined IAP a couple of months ago. I apologize for repeating what's already been said, but, I had like zero of an idea about IAP's financial situation. It just never occured to me how expensive it is to run this place. Oh sure, I saw the ads for donations and raffles, but I thought those things were just to give you a little extra "pin" money. For the sake of brevity, here are my suggestions:

A. Unless you spell it out for us, we're not going to be aware of IAP's financial needs.

B. The dollar amount of knowledge that I have gained from IAP members far surpasses anything close to what I have paid for Penturning books and videos.

C. As a last ditch effort to save IAP, I would be fine with paying a membership fee. But, I bet that almost everybody here first did a "fly-by" before joining. If you have to resort to a membership fee there needs to be levels of membership so that first timers have a chance to get addicted before being asked to pay up.

D. There is definitely an untapped source of revenue in the businesses that advertise here. "Word of mouth" from the members carries a whole lot of weight at IAP. If somebody says, "Hey, I found a great deal on bla bla bla" then off we go to check out the deal. Plus, businesses like Ryan's, Nils', Darrick's, even Andrea's and others have the luxury of us being a focus group for their penmaking supplies. We should capitalize on their profiting from IAP. Just think about how much moola is generated from our group buys! I'm for unobtrusive advertising if it keeps IAP afloat.

E. Finally, please consider the idea of making IAP a nonprofit corporation. A huge advantage would be our donations becoming legitimate tax deductions.

F. As for businesses listing classified ads ..... we should remember that in addition to a listing fee, ebay charges a commission of something like 5.25% ... why don't we? I think we should continue to encourage individuals to list free or at least donate a buck or two.

G. I like the idea of auctioning a pen a month. I have a feeling that the artisans here don't have a clue as to how much we admire their (each other's) work.

Finally, now that I know our financial situation, I'm going to step up to the place and start helping out financially.
One of the great things about IAP is that we all have a "seat at the table" when it comes to expressing our ideas ... even us rookies.

Best wishes to all.
DocStram

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by DocStram
<br />Jeff
I only joined IAP a couple of months ago. I apologize for repeating what's already been said, but, I had like zero of an idea about IAP's financial situation. It just never occured to me how expensive it is to run this place. Oh sure, I saw the ads for donations and raffles, but I thought those things were just to give you a little extra "pin" money. For the sake of brevity, here are my suggestions:

A. Unless you spell it out for us, we're not going to be aware of IAP's financial needs.

B. The dollar amount of knowledge that I have gained from IAP members far surpasses anything close to what I have paid for Penturning books and videos.

C. As a last ditch effort to save IAP, I would be fine with paying a membership fee. But, I bet that almost everybody here first did a "fly-by" before joining. If you have to resort to a membership fee there needs to be levels of membership so that first timers have a chance to get addicted before being asked to pay up.

D. There is definitely an untapped source of revenue in the businesses that advertise here. "Word of mouth" from the members carries a whole lot of weight at IAP. If somebody says, "Hey, I found a great deal on bla bla bla" then off we go to check out the deal. Plus, businesses like Ryan's, Nils', Darrick's, even Andrea's and others have the luxury of us being a focus group for their penmaking supplies. We should capitalize on their profiting from IAP. Just think about how much moola is generated from our group buys! I'm for unobtrusive advertising if it keeps IAP afloat.

E. Finally, please consider the idea of making IAP a nonprofit corporation. A huge advantage would be our donations becoming legitimate tax deductions.

F. As for businesses listing classified ads ..... we should remember that in addition to a listing fee, ebay charges a commission of something like 5.25% ... why don't we? I think we should continue to encourage individuals to list free or at least donate a buck or two.

G. I like the idea of auctioning a pen a month. I have a feeling that the artisans here don't have a clue as to how much we admire their (each other's) work.

Finally, now that I know our financial situation, I'm going to step up to the place and start helping out financially.
<b>One of the great things about IAP is that we all have a "seat at the table" when it comes to expressing our ideas ... even us rookies.</b>

Best wishes to all.
DocStram

Al,

Well said.

I specifically like the last sentence [^].

 

[OSCAR15]

Originally posted by jeff
<br />

Originally posted by gerryr
<br />I'm not sure if this would work, but would there be a way to charge for each post? If there are 1.2 million page views I would think posts must be at least 200,000 per month. At 1 cent each, that would be $2,000 a month. Of course, Dario and JimGo might have totake out a loan.[]

There were 8191 posts in April.

One thing to remember is that while some of the ideas are good, their implementation is difficult. There is no canned mechanism to charge for posts, or ads, or the like. Making that work fairly and smoothly would be a big job.

With very very few exceptions, the "big number" posters have already donated way more than a penny a post.

Interesting statistics: On an average day: 250 <b>members</b> and 300 <b>unregistered guests</b> visit. Since we started accepting donations, 187 individuals have contributed. Some of those 187 have donated multiple times, some more than a dozen times.

The point is that 187 people (well, 188 if you include me) support this site. I'm not griping about that. Not everyone is in a financial position to donate. The whole purpose of this site is the free and open exchange of ideas and education, and that includes people who can't or choose not to donate.

Great discussion!

Jeff: This is a dilema indeed. Many good ideas have been posted. First off, I oppose ads from commercial interests. This forum is for turners to share info. While I applaud what you have done, and your wish to keep dues or donations on a voluntary basis, you should not have to foot the costs. Here is my two cents worth (for what thats worth):
<h1><center>Membership Dues</center></h1>
1 ) If you can afford to buy a lathe, pen kits, blanks etc, you can certainly afford an annual member fee. The sharing of info here far exceeds the info obtainable in books and other medium. Rather than the "authors" way of doing something, you have a multitude of opinions, comments, critiques etc. We have a large membership. Even a small fee from each, say 10-15 bucks a year would provide enough to keep the site afloat. <b>Pennies a day ! </b> This is cheaper than one book or one video per year. We could still accept donations in addition.
2 ) For those that cannot afford a contribution, permit them site access, but limit those features which consume a lot of bandwidth.
They can still take advantage of this great site, however, on a lesser
level.
3 ) A couple of folks have suggested donating proceeds from a pen <b>they</b> sell. One poster asked "a slimline or emperor". How about donating a pen to IAP to be sold at auction? It could be done from E-bay. This would not only raise cash, but provide <b>FREE advertising for the IAP website</b> as well !
4 ) Members selling through classifieds should pay a small percentage fee. That is certainly NOT unreasonable, as they would pay to post their ad in a local newspaper. Or they can pay a set fee for posting ads on IAP.[8D]
5 ) I have posed questions on this forum as to recommendations on equipment, for example, a cheap way to press pens. The responses I received (DeStaCo clamp or Harbor Freight Arbor Press) provided cheaper options. The dollar amount this <b>ONE</b> suggestion saved for me would <b>MORE</b> than cover a modest membership fee. This is just one example. As for those that say "I am outta here" I doubt very much that they are contributing information to the membership anyways. I say let them be "outta here". If they cannot appreciate the wonderful resource they have here, let them try to find it elsewhere.
6 ) Putting commercial ads here will definately have a negative impact on what this site has achieved. For one thing, no one can give an honest opinion about a product paying to advertise. It would certainly not please a paying sponsor to have their product described as junk. Not to mention that it cheapens the overall forum. Any solution at all is preferential to ADS!

Jeff: Keep up the great job. You have all the support you need right here!

 

[epson]

Jeff,
I voted for donations, but I would be very happy to pay a membership fee for this site to ensure its health.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by OSCAR15
<br />.....1 ) If you can afford to buy a lathe, pen kits, blanks etc, you can certainly afford an annual member fee......

2 ) For those that cannot afford a contribution, permit them site access, but limit those features which consume a lot of bandwidth.
They can still take advantage of this great site, however, on a lesser level.....

As to #1: not to mention the expensive computer system and monthly access fees to the Internet. To repeat an earlier comment, give up one Coke per day(or half a beer) and you would have it covered. $12 memberships from the 350 posting members would generate $4200 per year!!!

As to #2: Sounds like a perfectly logical and fair suggestion to me!!


And a few thoughts about implementation....

1. Give one free month of full access for new folks so they can decide what to do. You don't wan to scare off a bunch of new folks by insisting on a membership up front.

2. Prorate the first year's membership to an annual renewal date. Having a few renewals every month may seem more convenient; but in actual fact, it is a real pain!! DAMHIK

3. It occurs to me that software may not be available to keep up with memberships, renewals, limited access etc. Anyone out there willing to write some code if Jeff decides to go this route and needs/wants some help??

 

[chitswood]

As long as the members will donate enought to the site to keep it running, there is no need to change the spirit of the site through admission fees.

Just let us know what you need Jeff!

 

[RussFairfield]

It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]

 

[blodal]

I voted for donations, but would not object to dues if that is what it takes. I am new the this site and pen turning, and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I have learned a tremendous amount in a very short time.

There have been a lot of very good suggestions, but some would lead to an administrative burden. Someone mentioned software to track members. The billing and collection of payments could be quite an effort. My thinking is, if donations will work, and maybe classified fees and some other types of charges, you will keep the admin efforts and costs down.

I agree with the others, whatever it takes to keep this site going, I will support.

Thanks for what you do!

 

[chitswood]

Yup[]

 

[DocStram]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]

Russ,
With the utmost respect to you, please note that quite a few of these posts are in support of advertising (which would probably, of course, include links). On the other hand, I think you would have to agree that IAP members show a significant amount of $$$upport, in the way of steady income, for those same businesses. All one needs to do is take a quick look at the Group Purchases Forum to see what I mean.

 

[TexasJohn]

I messed up and checked off "Donation" before I gave it too much thought. I really think an annual fee would be much better. If you do it on a monthly basis it would be too difficult to keep track of. Like others have stated, with a set fee (or whatever you want to call it) everyone would be contributing the same amount and it would be equal for all. I have not read all the post on this string but this is IMHO.

 

[OSCAR15]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]

Russ...It is NOT the "convenient links" I find objectionable. I support these firms with every purchase I make to them. LINKS are fine! I feel that accepting paid advertisement will change the forum for the worst.
I think that it will act to censor comments about specific companies and/or products. How can the membership give candid and truthful comments? As to Randy's idea of implementation, I agree. It will be difficult. Software may be needed to implement this. AS I SAID AT THE START OF MY ORIGINAL POST: This is indeed a difficult situation. There are no easy answers. What I cannnot understand however, is people that use and benefit from this site <b>(SOME EVEN USE THE IAP LOGO ON THEIR SITES TO PROMOTE SALES)</b>, moanin and groanin over ( a minimal ) annual fee. A couple of cents a day is a small price to pay! If you are able to screw up ONE LESS pen from the info you get here, it is well worth it!
I belong to another web forum (free) but paid users there get another URL (more features)and a password to access it. They charge 10 bucks a year, and I gladly paid it. It offers a wealth of info. When you fill out the form with credit card info, it sends a reply e-mail with the "paid" url and password.
I believe they set this up as an auto-reply once credit card is accepted. <b> The sitemaster claims to have 60,000 + paid members. Do the math ! And cost to subscribers is a MERE .83 cents a month. I guess some folks here will say they are outta here cause of this high expense. </b>

<b>P.S. along with ads, do you want spyware, spam, and pop-ups too? That usually is the price you pay for banner ads!</b> OSCAR

 

[Daniel]

Actually one of my reasons for favoring advertising, is for the convenient links. I started to mention that in my original post but it started getting to long so I deleted a lot of it including some of the benefits I see in having ads around. banners with links to the businesses web site is a big one. businesses being able to run ads with links to specific pages is anouther. It could help stream line a lot of things and hopefully even incourage specials for the I.A.P. as well. gives more reason to belong to this group. It could help suppliers be more responsive to what is happening in the group as well. if the hot topic of the month is acrylics. hopefully suppliers would be able to respond to that with ads right here on the group.
sort of bring the turner, supplier relationship a step or two closer.

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]

 

[OSCAR15]

Daniel...We already have links from home page...We can add more....Paid advertising has its own set of issues...Convenience is great don't get me wrong. BUT can any member give a negative (although truthful) review of a product, if that product is made by a paid advertiser?

 

[Daniel]

Originally posted by chitswood
<br />"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education.

Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.

One thing that is missing in this comment is that the interaction is not "Free" that is the reason for this thread. it costs Jeff around $10 a day to provide me with the ability to interact here.

I'm afraid donating money directly is something I'll avoid, I get killer deals on the wood we buy in bulk, so thats how I can help in the biggest way, I know my dollar can make more money for this site if I spend it on wood first.

I understand the take money convert to wood to then convert to money again. but aren't you back where you started? not trying to be sarcastic here. but at that point you are still faced with either giving the money after one rotation or converting yet again.
sooner or later you have to face that what is needed is money to pay the monthly bills. In my experience a person is willing to give or they are not. all the rest is just a song and dance they make up to justify there decision. the givers have to do it as well. be there when I explain it to my wife.


Offer advertisement on this site, "chitswood" may be a buyer. As long as the site is still here and free, I'm a happy goober.
We advertise our woods in the classifieds don't we? Why is anyone against a business advertising for pay?

You hit on a deeper train of thought I've had here. look at who gets what from this group. should the people that are giving info free be expected to pay to be able to do that? should those that make money selling there goods here be able to do so free of charge? it fits my way of thinking that those that are doing the giving should get the getting. and those that are making the money should support the site.
above all this makes the most since to me.

hope you don't think I'm picking on your comments cause it was not my intent, your post jsut brought up some other thinking for me.

 

[Daniel]

The one comment I have read that concerns me about paid advertisers is. could the group remain unobjective about the suppliers knowing that one is a bigger supporter than anouther. I think it woudl be inevitable that the big advertisers woudl tend to be shown favoratism and that would not be good. ont he other hand. look at CSUSA and Nils actually posting and interacting with the group. I think it puts CSUSA in a much better light than other suppliers to be doing that. so be it, let them be all they can be is where I finally end up with that thought. Convenience was mentioned as only one aspect of the whole picture. I still think paid advertising is the way to go though. for many reasons. to many to be able to express through these posts.

Originally posted by OSCAR15
<br />Daniel...We already have links from home page...We can add more....Paid advertising has its own set of issues...Convenience is great don't get me wrong. BUT can any member give a negative (although truthful) review of a product, if that product is made by a paid advertiser?

 

[OSCAR15]

Daniel..I respect your opinion, as well as everyone elses. I am merely presenting mine. I do not want to get into a shouting match with anyone.... I think it is great that CSUSA is participating, and I wish Berea, PSI and others would also. I agree that it would bring us closer to the vendors, and give vendors more insight on what we as turners want. But putting the dollar sign in front of this though may change the very thing that you (and me as well) see as a possible benefit from their participation!

 

[OSCAR15]

Originally posted by chitswood
<br />"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education. As others have noted, If we're an open group, 10% of the membership will provide support. If membership costs money, we'll be 10% the size we are now."

Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is <b>I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.</b>

I have made ample use of the business classifieds. But when I joined, <b>if I had seen a listing fee, I would've avoided it like the plague.</b>


-Darick

I don't understand the logic here...Maybe I am stupid. Why should it be free? You are being provided a service here! Second, this service isn't free at all. If you are following this forum, you should realize the problem here. It is in fact very costly! Are you suggesting that membership should be free while others foot the tab?
Why "avoid it like the plague? You run a business. Can you name<b> just one other</b> place where you can advertise (to a hand picked group of people interested in what you are selling)? I think paying a modest fee for this would indeed be a bargain. If you sell blanks, what better place to advertise? Everyone here is looking to buy blanks!
[]Please correct my convoluted thinking if I am wrong here.[]
Classified "SHOULD" be paid for, whether it is individual or businesses. I am against BANNER ADS!
Daniel, I have thought about your last comments. I can in fact see some benefits to what you suggest. I just am not sure if the benefits will in fact outweigh the possible lessening of this site as a resource. It is pretty much perfect as it is. Our main concern (all of us) should be to keep it status quo if possible. If that means paying 15 bucks a year, I am all for it.

 

[DocStram]

Jeff,
I have a suggestion. After some 215 posts we now have a pretty broad range of ideas and opinions. All of this has been very enlightening. I've even had my mind changed about a few things.
Since we've all had the opportunity to read the wide array of opinions, maybe it's time for you to run the poll again. You might want to reword it and add few ideas, but let's take a vote and see where things stand.
The survey may need to be expanded to include several different questions. Or, maybe we can set up a Lickert scale with a statement and then a range of answers, for example:

"Read each statement and then mark it according to the following scale:
Strongly Agree Agree No Opinion Disgree Strongly Disagree
1. IAP Should have an annual membership fee
2. IAP Should allow paid advertising
3. Classified ads should be free for all IAP Members
4. Classified ads should be free for everybody.
5. There should be levels of membership.
6. IAP should be funded solely through donations and fundraisers.
7. IAP members should be charged a fee for each post.

The advantage of the five point scale is that we aren't forced into a Yes/No situation. Instead we are given a range to choose from. Then, after the poll is closed, we can tally up the responses.
This is just my advice, sometimes I give real good advice .. other times it pretty much sucks.

 

[chitswood]

Originally posted by OSCAR15
<br />

Originally posted by chitswood
<br />"I hate the thought of a membership fee. It squashes the free and open flow of information and education. As others have noted, If we're an open group, 10% of the membership will provide support. If membership costs money, we'll be 10% the size we are now."

Exaclty, and the problem with a premium membership is <b>I can't think of anything to offer that shouldn't already be free.</b>

I have made ample use of the business classifieds. But when I joined, <b>if I had seen a listing fee, I would've avoided it like the plague.</b>


-Darick

I don't understand the logic here...Maybe I am stupid. Why should it be free? You are being provided a service here! Second, this service isn't free at all. If you are following this forum, you should realize the problem here. It is in fact very costly! Are you suggesting that membership should be free while others foot the tab?
Why "avoid it like the plague? You run a business. Can you name<b> just one other</b> place where you can advertise (to a hand picked group of people interested in what you are selling)? I think paying a modest fee for this would indeed be a bargain. If you sell blanks, what better place to advertise? Everyone here is looking to buy blanks!
[]Please correct my convoluted thinking if I am wrong here.[]
Classified "SHOULD" be paid for, whether it is individual or businesses. I am against BANNER ADS!
Daniel, I have thought about your last comments. I can in fact see some benefits to what you suggest. I just am not sure if the benefits will in fact outweigh the possible lessening of this site as a resource. It is pretty much perfect as it is. Our main concern (all of us) should be to keep it status quo if possible. If that means paying 15 bucks a year, I am all for it.

Hmmm, I better be careful answering this.

We're all in this together, this isn't about are own luxury, its about finding suitable funds for this site while mainting what it is, so keep in mind lets not get in an argument, lets find a solution, too bad typing is so much slower than talking![][]

This site is a social area devoted to penturning, there is no charge for the great information here, thats why the members are happy and willing to donate.

The site costs Jeff money to run, but if he starts charging us for the service it provides, it becomes a business site, thats why a members fee should be avoided - does this make sense[?]

I'm not very creative, maybe there is something Jeff can charge access to, I just couldn't think of anything that wouldn't do what I stated above about this becoming a business site.

I think donations from this, our community, should be sufficient to support jeff's social site, Like Dario has shown, we are more than willing to contribute.

 

[OSCAR15]

Hey Chit...
I agree we all need to be working together on this. I agree FULLY in that "This site is a social area devoted to penturning, there is no charge for the great information here, thats why the members are happy and willing to donate."
If contributions fill the need I say GREAT! If a membership is required, I say a small fee is well worth what we get out of it. When I say I am against ads, I do <b>NOT</b> mean your business (or any other memeber) running classifieds. In fact, I am for it! I would MUCH rather do busines with the other members here than with large commercial interests...I have seen what you offer! Your stock is awesome, and at a great price! I think I am being misunderstood on my opinion. I DO NOT WANT to see ROCKLER,PSI,BEREA,CSUSA and others plastering banner ads!
I have no objection to the forum putting in links to them as a convenience.
You and others that have posted want to see a continuing exchange of free ideas. I think we need to re word it to OPEN. The site cost money, no getting away from this fact. I think 10% contribute because it is on a voluntary basis. I believe a small fee from members would<b> not </b>mean that the other 90% would quit.
And yes you are right...membership fees would be "commercial" . BUT wouldn't it be less comercial to have the forum members pay rather than except large ads from major players? It is IAP.ORG (organization) <b>not</b> IAP.COM (commercial). I believe the folks running this could make a tidy profit selling it. They have chosen NOT to....They recognize this is one terrific forum...Best on the net. Better we foot the bill (IF NEED BE) than major companies.
LETS KEEP IT OURS!

 

[JimGo]

Jeff,
Thanks for the opportunity to even voice an opinion in all of this!

It amazes me that some people are so dead set against paying a fee to be a member. You mentioned early on that it costs you personally at least $100 per month (assuming a decent amount of donations) to keep this place running, yet apparently some aren't even willing to contribute $10 a year to help keep the forum available. That's disappointing to me.

I really appreciate your generosity, and will try to do better about making contributions. Periodic reminders, including a private E-mail in my case (I'm NOT advocating this for others), wouldn't be a bad thing. And I'm content to leave the running of this site in your capable hands, unless it gets to be too much for you.

 

[chitswood]

Originally posted by OSCAR15
<br />Hey Chit...
I agree we all need to be working together on this. I agree FULLY in that "This site is a social area devoted to penturning, there is no charge for the great information here, thats why the members are happy and willing to donate."
If contributions fill the need I say GREAT! If a membership is required, I say a small fee is well worth what we get out of it. When I say I am against ads, I do <b>NOT</b> mean your business (or any other memeber) running classifieds. In fact, I am for it! I would MUCH rather do busines with the other members here than with large commercial interests...I have seen what you offer! Your stock is awesome, and at a great price! I think I am being misunderstood on my opinion. I DO NOT WANT to see ROCKLER,PSI,BEREA,CSUSA and others plastering banner ads!
I have no objection to the forum putting in links to them as a convenience.
You and others that have posted want to see a continuing exchange of free ideas. I think we need to re word it to OPEN. The site cost money, no getting away from this fact. I think 10% contribute because it is on a voluntary basis. I believe a small fee from members would<b> not </b>mean that the other 90% would quit.
And yes you are right...membership fees would be "commercial" . BUT wouldn't it be less comercial to have the forum members pay rather than except large ads from major players? It is IAP.ORG (organization) <b>not</b> IAP.COM (commercial). I believe the folks running this could make a tidy profit selling it. They have chosen NOT to....They recognize this is one terrific forum...Best on the net. Better we foot the bill (IF NEED BE) than major companies.
LETS KEEP IT OURS!

Obviously I'm a newb when it comes to running a website[]

I agree then, no banner adds, lets keep it ours.

Lets resort to membership fees as a last resort though, things are pretty nice the way they are. Let's see if it can continue to run off donations, perhaps %10 donating is enough people to keep this site running?

Like I said, fees scare me, if it costs money I have to be REALLY convinced that I like it. ( which I am in this case[])

 

[Ron Mc]

Jeff....Have you looked into your hosting options for better rates? I have several websites up and running and the rates are extremely reasonable.
If you are interested in my host let me know because they can easily handle this forums broadband and hard drive use.

 

[Ron Mc]

I don't agree with levels of membership at all. This totally defeats the purpose of this forum. I thought that the forum was here to learn from. If a new member has to pay to learn I believe the world will loose potentially wonderful pen turners.
I remember when I first found it. If I would have had to pay a membership fee at that time I would not have.

 

[ldimick]

Wow! It just keeps on going. Which is good.

A few thoughts and observations.

1. Subscriber only sections will not work. First of all the purpose of IAP is to foster growth and education of our hobby. By charging for this inforamtion we are blocking off access to it. I know all about the argument of economics. If you do offer one month free access to new members then they pillage the honey pot and disappear. Next month they reappear with a new name, IP, etc.

2. What is to prevent someone from taking the information provided in the subscriber section, reformatting it, and putting it back on the web? While there are a LOT of great articles here there is really nothing that can't be found elsewhere. That's the good/bad thing about the Internet - lots of sources for information.

3. I suspect that if membership fees are charged that the tone of the posts here will get ugly. Simply because the attitude of "I PAID FOR IT AND I CAN DO WHAT I WANT" tends to appear. Discipline of inappropriate members is dificult because now they think they have bought the right to behave inappropriately.

4. There is a lot of merit to be said for not allowing paid advertisements. I read some British motorcycle magazine for that very reason. They do not accept advertising from the motorcycle makers, only from resellers. They are beholding to no one and they are not afraid to tell it like it is.

5. The IAP, up to this point, seems to be functioning through the honor system. We have some great articles that have been written that could be viewed as detrimental to the author as it creates competition. Many articles contain, for lack of a better term, trade secrets. The group buys succeed because of the trust and honor system that has been developed here. Some of those deals involve thousands of dollars.

I would prefer to have a note on the top of every page that tells us how much money the IAP needs for the current month. I don't mind helping Jeff out but unless I am reminded I don't understand the entire need and I get lax in my donations.

6. The problem with charging a surcharge for business transacted on the site is that there are many deals that do not come across the web. There arer a lot of offline deals. While I am sure everyone here is above board I think this method is a little shakey.

Let the flaming begin![}]

 

[OSCAR15]

Problem here guys is that there are many good arguments indeed.
WE need to reach a consensus here. Jeff asked for members opinions.
Only one will be implemented. After reading all comments here, I realize several things.
1) It seems everyone wants things to stay the same. This is good.
2) It seems the majority favor donations. This is ok too.
3) It seems to me most will contribute, but prefer not to have "fixed" fees. I understand what Chitwood and others mean here. Keeping it voluntary keeps it "as is". This is good too, as long as enough money is raised.

Botton line here is that the site keeps going as is! It is a fantastic resource! Keeping it as is is critical. Few here want to see <b>HOME DESPOT</b> or <b>Crapsman</b> ads plastered over our site.
If I hadn't "stumbled" onto this forum, I would have NEVER known of the issues here.
Lynn (ldimick) made the comment "I would prefer to have a note on the top of every page that tells us how much money the IAP needs for the current month. I don't mind helping Jeff out but unless I am reminded I don't understand the entire need and I get lax in my donations".
To me, this is the <b>BEST</b> idea yet! Truth here Jeff....I didn't even realize you took donations (or I would have gladly contributed).
Instead of burying this somewhere, why not put it on home page, or every page as Lynn suggests? Also, post the address to which to send contributions! I have been a member for a few months, and had no idea! If folks don't know, they cannot help!
From all the participation in this forum, and from all the differing opinions, one thing is certain. The majority of people here want to keep this going as is. They will do what it takes to help. Prominantly posting the needs of the organization will keep us informed.
P.S. WHERE DO THOSE OF US WHO DO NOT KNOW MAIL IN OUR DONATIONS ?????

 

[lwalden]

I prefer Don's recommendation- for membership, with tiered rates. I also like the thought of tying access to membership level- non-members (guests) may be restricted from downloading, which seems to be one of the issues- bandwidth consumed having an associated expense. Basic entry level membership may not provide ability to post items for sale in the business classifieds section. Have several levels of annual membership rates for folks to select from- Member, Supporter, Patron, etc....which could be an alternate to the slimline vs. emperor discussion on setting aside gross proceeds of a pen sold each year. I've only been accessing this site actively for three or four months now, and I can't put a value to the wealth of knowledge I have gained in that time (though I'll be making a donation via Dario's current raffle, now that I'm a little more aware of the issues involved). I for one would be more than happy to subscribe for an anuual membership if that ends up the preferred option.

Originally posted by its_virgil
<br />My thoughts on this is to charge a membership fee and even have levels of membership. I love this place and would pay for membership. Many will and many will not. Those of us who enjoy this site, who get lots of worthwhile info from it and who are givers to the site in both pen knowldedge and $$ will continue to do so.

I would give a pen for auction, but someone has to auction it, someone has to buy it, and someone has to run it, and someone has to collect the money....mdmbership fees seem like a such a better way. When my kids were in youth soccer and othere sports, I refused to sell the normal stuff they sell to raise money. I would much rather give an equal amount of money that the candy, etc would raise instead of having my kids and me trying to sell the stuff. Same with pens....Just how many pens can we sell? How often....? Membership has its privlidges and those privledges cost $$$$.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Originally posted by OSCAR15
<br />

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />It makes me feel good to know that nobody wants to see a convenient link to Bill Baumbeck, Ryan, me, Craft Supplies, Berea, or the several other folks who would be buying the advertising space to provide this site with a steady income.[][}]

Russ...It is NOT the "convenient links" I find objectionable. I support these firms with every purchase I make to them. LINKS are fine! I feel that accepting paid advertisement will change the forum for the worst.
I think that it will act to censor comments about specific companies and/or products. How can the membership give candid and truthful comments? As to Randy's idea of implementation, I agree. It will be difficult. Software may be needed to implement this. AS I SAID AT THE START OF MY ORIGINAL POST: This is indeed a difficult situation. There are no easy answers. What I cannnot understand however, is people that use and benefit from this site <b>(SOME EVEN USE THE IAP LOGO ON THEIR SITES TO PROMOTE SALES)</b>, moanin and groanin over ( a minimal ) annual fee. A couple of cents a day is a small price to pay! If you are able to screw up ONE LESS pen from the info you get here, it is well worth it!
I belong to another web forum (free) but paid users there get another URL (more features)and a password to access it. They charge 10 bucks a year, and I gladly paid it. It offers a wealth of info. When you fill out the form with credit card info, it sends a reply e-mail with the "paid" url and password.
I believe they set this up as an auto-reply once credit card is accepted. <b> The sitemaster claims to have 60,000 + paid members. Do the math ! And cost to subscribers is a MERE .83 cents a month. I guess some folks here will say they are outta here cause of this high expense. </b>

<b>P.S. along with ads, do you want spyware, spam, and pop-ups too? That usually is the price you pay for banner ads!</b> OSCAR

First - I'll bet Russ said this "tongue in check" but he also mentions he is willing to pay for advertising his wares. Do you really think Russ is going to invade your computer with malware?

Second - There are numerous ways of dealing with spyware, spam, and pop-ups. Only children have these problems, adults get antivirus software, anti pop-up software and anti spyware software. Adults use them regularly and keep the software updated.

Click on the link below and you will see a great way to advertise without the problems you as so concerned about
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?noframes;read=110587

 

[OSCAR15]

Whatwoodido: (Drew) You may be right in your assumption that everyone will not pay...
I <b> never</b> meant to say that paying dues was the way to go, only that<b> IF</b> it came down to it, it might be the lesser of evils.
I did not know about board of directors, or that it self destructed. Once again, I agree that not everyone will be happy. I guess that all of us having different viewpoints, and being so varied, is what makes this forum so great.
Trying to "please" everyone won't work , as you say....
After reading comments here in this forum, my opinions have gone back and forth. Bottom line is it is whatever Jeff thinks best. This is his baby. No I am not against auctions raising money either. My only desire is that the forum continues as is.
As to only 85 members voting on the issue....Could be that the poll page isn't visited as much. Drew, I was not only UNAWARE that the site takes contributions, but I am unaware that auctions are done to raise money...Money is Money! The ONLY agreement that will be achieved here is that we need to continue on. I would suggest Jeff E mails the membership asking for help. That would eat still more bandwidth!
Why not do what Lynn suggested, i.e. ask on each page for contributions, auctions, etc. POST WHERE TO SEND IT.
Many members may just be unaware! I was until I stumbled onto this poll.
If a notice for help was posted on the main page (or all pages in forums) it would be interesting to see what would happen. I do believe that there are a terrific group of folks here that would pitch in to do what it takes! EVEN IF THEY CAN NEVER AGREE ON ANYTHING

[][][]

 

[chitswood]

[][][]

 

[OSCAR15]

Ron: You are taking my comments in a way I <b>never</b> meant them!
I did not mean to imply that Russ would put malware on anyones machine. What I did mean is that IF we take (ANY) ads, we will become a commercial site and not be too particular who we accept advertising dollars from! As for how "adults" handle spyware etc...It will please you to know my machine IS well protected and updated regularly.
I wonder if the "adults" you speak of are the same ones groaning about paying a few dollars to help keep this site up!
This forum is supposed to be of help to Jeff, not a p**sing contest! ADULTS do not do that! With that said, I have voiced my last opinion in here!

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Originally posted by OSCAR15
<br />IF we take (ANY) ads, we will become a commercial site and not be too particular who we accept advertising dollars from!

Click on the link below and you will see a great way to advertise without the problems you as so concerned about
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?noframes;read=110587

 

[Kemosabe62]

I regret that I'm one who hasn't donated. Whether this is neglect or ignorance, I don't know, but feel it is both. And I am sorry for this. after making this post I'm gonna find that donate button after making this post. But may I mention that maybe doing this the way the "sawmill creek" forum does it. As some of you are members/contributors there also. It's free to all. Once a year there's a member( I don't think he's a moderator/ more like a cheerleader) who starts a thread each year saying more or less "OK guys it's time to pony up." He sates a dollar amt. that someone figures each member should contribute to pay the bills. And it is a very nominal fee. This may be due to the fact they have more contributing members, I don't know. But in doing so your title goes from being a "member" to a "contributor". This feel puts in the "guilt" factor and makes folks pony up. Although this won't work for folks who "takes up 3 parking spaces" to quote Dario. I don't know if the way they do it puts them in the black or red, or if everyone is fairly compensated. But I feel if they or you go to a membeship fee only, you'll lose a few if not alot of members and will never be able to reach people who want to learn. Speak with Keith Outten at "Sawmill Creek" ( I hope he doesn't mind the plug), see if it'll work for IAP.

 

[Dario]

Anthony,

If you do hit that donate button...don't forget to sign up for the RAFFLE

We are at <b>$925.00</b> right now and I am hoping to hit <b>$1,000.00</b> [][}] before it ends.

I know it is very ambitious and I would have never dreamt it a few days ago...but our generous members made it all possible.

Thank you!!!

 

[jeff]

Let me check in here with a couple of comments.

First, for those who feel the donate button is buried... it has been on the front page for almost a year. It's under the logo in the content nav box. Per your suggestions, I'll be putting it elsewhere on the site also.

There will never be gaudy or annoying flashing banner ads or popups. IF advertising is ever accepted, it will be unobtrusive and tasteful.

At this point, it's unlikely that we'll have membership fees anytime soon. Donations have been coming in nicely since we started this discussion, which tells me that when folks are aware that there is a need, they'll step up. I probably have not made our needs clear enough, and I'll remedy that soon.

Thanks for all the thoughtful discussion.

 

[pssherman]

We are at $925.00 right now and I am hoping to hit $1,000.00 before it ends.

Way to go Dario.

Paul in AR

 

[chitswood]

Thanks for a great site Jeff!

 

[GBusardo]

Jeff, I would have no problem with a membership fee of say 10 dollars a year as well as limit the amount of photos in the gallery. One other thing I thought of, what if everyone turned a pen and mailed it to IAP. The pens could then be sold and the IAP could then keep all of the profits. I have no clue what the cost is of running this site or how much the shortfall is. 100's??? 1000's???
Gary

 

[blodal]

What about an annual (or more often) fund raising drive. Like Public TV sort of. A week of special activities; auctions, raffles, prizes, more online chats with special contributors on special subjects. Lots of possibilities that would really catch everyone's attention.

This is basically what has happened in the last few days since Jeff made the need known.