Site Support

[Dario]

Originally posted by blodal
<br />What about an annual (or more often) fund raising drive. Like Public TV sort of. A week of special activities; auctions, raffles, prizes, more online chats with special contributors on special subjects. Lots of possibilities that would really catch everyone's attention.

This is basically what has happened in the last few days since Jeff made the need known.

Bill,

I do intend to do that [].

Cannot promise how often I can do this but I will try to do it every 6 months. Darick (Chitswood) and I are actually in contact planning/sharing ideas for the next "gimick" []. The next blitz will be a fun filled one!!! Don't want to spill too much info for now so just watch out for it.

Of course we are hoping other ideas (and sponsors) will surface as we get along with this []

 

[blodal]

I will be sitting on Pens and needles waiting.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

I see allot of people willing to donate a pen to be raffled or sold with the proceeds going to IAP, but not one person willing to step up to the plate to do the work required to make this idea a success.

This does not happen by magic folks, there is allot of work involved.

Any volunteers?

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Ron in Drums PA
<br />I see allot of people willing to donate a pen to be raffled or sold with the proceeds going to IAP, but not one person willing to step up to the plate to do the work required to make this idea a success.

This does not happen by magic folks, there is allot of work involved.

Any volunteers?

Ron,

If I have more time I will do it but I am spread too thin as it is. If there are no takers, I may re-consider but hoping I won't have to.

Which venue will the sales be done...eBay???

 

[Dario]

I think the best things is...HONOR SYSTEM.

1. Make a pen for IAP
2. Sell it
3. Send proceeds to Jeff as donation.

Simple and easy.

Maybe we can make a thread just for it...show off the piece you will sell and update later for how much it sold for (=donation). []

 

[Dario]

The goal is to generate funds for IAP...it doesn't have to be through pen sales []

 

[thewishman]

Dario,

Thank you for stepping up and doing the raffle. While so many of us are trying to decide what "should" be done, you have sparked a slew of donations - almost $1000! Your offer to credit donations from the prior few days was also an inclusive idea. Thank you for making something happen, while we're all just yappin'.

Chris

 

[gerryr]

I am not willing to step up and run an auction because I have a pretty good idea that it would be a mountain of work. In addition, I would not be willing to donate a pen to be auctioned on eBay. I haven't looked at pens on eBay for a long time but the couple of times I did, what I saw wasn't up to the quality of most of the pens posted here, plus the prices were cheaper than dirt. I don't think any of us want see a Baron we made sell on eBay for $20 or $30 or not sell at all.

 

[Ron Mc]

I believe the honor system would be much better than selling on eBay. I don't sell pens on eBay and don't intend to. Even better I'll just send the profits in from a sale and call it a day.
I've spent some spare time in the last few days reading this thread and am kind of disheartened by the fact that there are a couple posts that include apologize for not donating. Something is seriously wrong with that. No one should ever have to apologize for not making a voluntary donation![] I for one would like to let the members that felt this necessary know that, <b>"Yes, You do contribute to this forum on a regular basis with your posts and your pens. To date this was more than enough and I believe it will be more than enough for some time."</b>
I personally feel like this whole fundraising issue is getting out of hand and will begin to do more damage to this site than any good it will do. I also feel that a lot of artists will leave the site if it starts to charge a fee. Not because of the fee but because it will no longer have the sharing environment that it used to. As far as fundraisers every 6 months that's fine. Just don't post comments about it all over the forum.

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br /><b>I personally feel like this whole fundraising issue is getting out of hand and will begin to do more damage to this site than any good it will do</b>. I also feel that a lot of artists will leave the site if it starts to charge a fee. Not because of the fee but because it will no longer have the sharing environment that it used to. As far as fundraisers every 6 months that's fine. <b>Just don't post comments about it all over the forum.</b>

So you think it is wrong for me/us to mention it here or at the casual conversation? [?]

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br />I've spent some spare time in the last few days reading this thread and am kind of disheartened by the fact that there are a couple posts that include apologize for not donating. Something is seriously wrong with that. No one should ever have to apologize for not making a voluntary donation![] I for one would like to let the members that felt this necessary know that, <b>"Yes, You do contribute to this forum on a regular basis with your posts and your pens. To date this was more than enough and I believe it will be more than enough for some time."</b>

I agree...that is why it is called VOLUNTARY.

However, there is a time when people NEED to respond. Failure to do so may force some changes that will require changing VOLUNTARY to MANDATORY.

We are trying to avert that if possible...but know that 200 people rowing the Titanic won't cut it. Even if those 200 won't tire, I don't think it is fair. You don't want this ship to sink do you?

A small assistance/help goes a long way. []

 

[Kemosabe62]

Dario, too late. Already hit the donate button. Will participate in another raffle later if I can.

Ron Mc, I am only appolgetic in the fact I have benefitted from what I've learned here and not returned the favor to whom I've learned it from. But saying that, I've stopped buying my blanks from e-bay and have begun purchasing them from some of you here, feeling I'm benefiting a brotherhood sort of. Also I've jumped on some kits, gotten a Drill Dr(thanks to Dario's post) all before I donated.

Without this site being available the way it is I would not be doing this post. I am appreciative of what you guys have done and are doing. As now and may be in the future, I'll need a reminder to contribute to whom I'm learning from. Others may not, but that's just me.

 

[Ron Mc]

Dario,
Of course I don't want this ship to sink. That is why I assist/help in my own way.[]
I don't think that there should ever be a time when a member should feel that they need to apologize for not making a donation though. I'm all for the raffle and believe that it's a good idea and a great way to raise funds for the stability of the site. I also believe there is a lot more going on in the background that members aren't even aware of that happens to help the site. That's good as well. I just don't want anyone to feel that they must feel bad for wanting to learn or share yet they can't make a donation. That's all.

 

[Randy_]

Dario,

Thank you for stepping up and doing the raffle. While so many of us are trying to decide what "should" be done, you have sparked a slew of donations - almost $1000!

Dario's effort is tremendous!! And this comment is in no way meant to diminish his effort; but I would like to point out that what he has encouraged people to donate is only 25% of what is needed to keep IAP afloat for a year. Meaning, of course, that we will have to go through this exercise every three months forever if we are to keep IAP in the black using donations. Think you will get the same response if you are hitting up people for donations every 3 months?? I seriously doubt it!! Donations are very nice and very idealistic; but my cynical guess is that it will take a "LOT" more than voluntary donations to keep IAP on a sound financial footing. I could be wrong, of course; but I doubt it??

 

[Randy_]

Dario,

Thank you for stepping up and doing the raffle. While so many of us are trying to decide what "should" be done, you have sparked a slew of donations - almost $1000!

Dario's effort is tremendous!! And this comment is in no way meant to diminish his effort; but I would like to point out that what he has encouraged people to donate is slightly less than 25% of the amount required to keep IAP afloat for a year. Meaning, of course, that we will have to go through this exercise every three months "FOREVER" if we are to keep IAP in the black using donations. Think you will get the same response if you are hitting up people for donations every 3 months?? Sadly, I doubt it!!

Donations are very nice and very idealistic; but my cynical guess is that it will take a "LOT" more than voluntary donations to keep IAP on a sound financial footing. I could be wrong, of course; but I doubt it??

 

[chitswood]

C'mon Randy, join the sunshine club...

we can keep the wagon rolling[]

 

[Randy_]

How much does it cost to join??[][]

 

[Dario]

Originally posted by Ron Mc
<br />Dario,
Of course I don't want this ship to sink. That is why I assist/help in my own way.[]
I don't think that there should ever be a time when a member should feel that they need to apologize for not making a donation though. I'm all for the raffle and believe that it's a good idea and a great way to raise funds for the stability of the site. <b>I also believe there is a lot more going on in the background that members aren't even aware of that happens to help the site.</b> That's good as well. I just don't want anyone to feel that they must feel bad for wanting to learn or share yet they can't make a donation. That's all.

I agree..can I quote myself from the RAFFLE thread? []

Originally posted by Dario
<br />Jim,

Thank you [:I]

I am just "chatty" so I am more visible than others. <b>Rest assured that there are a lot who are helping behind the scenes and others helping in their own ways. In a way this thread will expose some but I know there are those who really would rather remain anonymous...they are the unsung heroes of the site </b>[]

Remember too that this is only the financial aspect...the posters who selflessly share their knowledge (tirelessly repeating maybe a thousand times), are the real foundation of this community.

IAP has become my home...if I can help keep it up, I would gladly do so...as I know you would too [].


(end speech) LOL

Just bumping this thread up actually LOL [}]

 

[its_virgil]

I don't think pen raffels or pen auctions will raise enougn funds to make it worth the effort. Who will be bidding on the pen(s)? We will. Who will be buying a raffle ticket? We will. I would just as soon send Jeff some $$$$. I would hope that more members here would voluntarily send Jeff some money...what ever can be afforded. Just a little from most of us would add up to more that what a few are doing.

I was told by a Red Cross Exec that if each person who gave blood for the first time last year would give again this year, their blood supply would be in excellent shape. But, most of the first time givers will not give again and the Red Cross has to continually spend time and resources to find new first time givers. Lots of people give blood regurarly, but those are not enough to keep the blood supply in good shape. I think this is the case for most non profit orgainzations.

I am not really in favor of a membership fee although I have advocated it in the past. I really think this site shoud continue to be the way Jeff and Scott envisioned it...free for all and a place where penturners can come and share their craft. But in reality, that only happens if the bills get paid.

I really believe that each person who benefits from this site should voluntarily contribute to keep it up and running. As I've said before, we all can afford computers, digital camers or scanners to take the pictures, internet service, CA glue, sandpaper, other supplies, and pen kits. Surely we can afford to send Jeff contributions to keep the knowledge freely flowing. Just my thoughts.

Do a good turn daily!
Don

PS: Thanks Dario for the wood raffle. I would rather have a chance at winning some of Darios's wood than bid on a pen or buy a raffle ticket for a pen. Again, just my thoughts and no one has to agree.

 

[ashaw]

Jeff
I have been with this for almost 2 years. I subscribe to a number of magazines but most of my information and contacts comes from here and also from The Pen Shop. i have no problem with being charged with a resonable fee. You have done a fine job with the site and you should not have to foot the cost even with the auctions I am sure you are still footing a part of the bill.
I also believe The Pen site should also charge a fee.
Let a guest come in a tryout some functions and if he likes what he sees then have a fee to join.


Alan

 

[GBusardo]

Morning Everyone,
Jeff, I been really reading and trying figure out what the best course of action would be to keep the IAP afloat. I know lots of people do tons of work to try and raise money for the site and do the administrative tasks to keep the site going. I applauded all of you. From what I understand, the site needs over $4000 a year to run. Not a lot of money for an organization with over 2000 registered members. For me personally, I live paycheck to paycheck and have a hard enough time convincing my wife that I "need" this new tool or ten more pen kits, blanks and some glue. hahaha . Having said that, after really thinking about it, I think a $10 per year membership fee to be able to post and download is more than reasonable. Maybe a decal and pen blank can be included in the membership fee. Just think of how much fund raising that would cut out. Doing this will probably not hurt the total membership and will ease some of the guilt I sometimes feel by not hitting the donate button. I, personally, would not have any problems seeing advertising on this site either, just no pop ups please. Maybe some of the real companies that make a profit from this site can kick in to the kitty, too. Maybe they already do, I do not really know. Just a for instance, how maybe people here would have never heard of some of the suppliers if it were not from this site? I probably would still be buying all my supplies from PSI. This site has about the nicest, most helpful group of people I have ever "chatted" with. One more thing, some of the pen turners here just have to be some of the best of what they do in the world, some of the work here is incredible.
Thanks for listening
Gary

 

[fuzzydog]

Gary, well said and ditto

David

 

[Dario]

Gary,

Another paycheck to paycheck guy here...don't know how I got myself in too deep this money pit of a hobby [B)][V][}].

Too late for me now...it got a good hold of me (and my wallet) already. [xx(]

 

[Skye]

I think the continual fundraising makes the site look like it's circling the drain. Is some fundraising necessary, sure, but when it get's to be this common, it makes it look like there's trouble keeping a float.

Just my POV.

 

[jscola]

I agree with Gary also. Joe

 

[lwalden]

Jeff- ever consider the thought of providing a recurring ACH donation/membership fee option? Kind of the way PBS offers this option for contributors? You know, the option where your donation amount is spread out in monthly payments over a year? Overhead to acquire an ACH origination application is minimal- and I know I'd never miss the $2.50 a month that a $30 a year donation would break down into. Shoot, that's less than the cost of one of BB's blanks, and I manage to mess up two or three of those a month....or the cost of stopping at the wrong ATM, given some of the bank charges these days...
If you're interested, I can get in touch with the folks in our Bank that provide ACH origination software and get more details for you...
And whether you call it a donation or voluntary annual membership doesn't much matter, seems like it would be a viable option for providing recurring funding/cashflow that addresses some of the concerns expressed so far with selling advertising or too much time spent running frequent fund raising efforts.
Let me know if there's an interest in pursuing this option.

 

[epson]

I think that we could raise money if we charge for posting pictures on the busines clasifieds. These people are making money from the web site, and are causing the use of excessive resourses. As an example, Chistwood makes several posts a week with multiple pictures. Bigrob777 updates his pricelist several times a week with pictures. Are these costing the site money? I am not saying the entire site should be paid by the classifieds, but it could be a supplimental income for those that post more than one picture per week.

I think the classifieds were meant as an occasional post for a member. If it becomes a daily feature post then I think that it should be a paid service, especially if pictures are involved.

 

[gaturner]

Jeff:

Just a few thoughts:

First, thanks for all you do to make this site great. There aren’t very many sites dedicated to one hobby-let alone penturning in general-that are as well organized and as helpful as this one. Reading some of the posts that have been left it is obvious that even the forum admin duties can be a real headache sometimes[}], let alone the techno “nuts and bolts†stuff that most of us never even see. So, thank you.

Second, I voted for the donation route, even though I knew when I voted that way that you wouldn’t even be putting the poll up if you already had enough donations coming in to keep everything running smoothly. That being said, I too would be okay with a membership fee. As has already been said, we all probably spend more money on movies, pizza, and other stuff that don’t bring us as much enjoyment…or lasting value.

Third, I like the idea of a “tiered†membership system. Maybe make some parts free, like reading the posts (lots of info can be gleamed from just this area, I know). Other areas, like posting comments or viewing pictures or PDF’s could be for paying members only. As far as the “selling one pen and donating the profits†is concerned, I’ve been turning for about a year, and I’ve yet to sell any. Maybe I don’t do enough turning, maybe they are not that good, maybe I’m giving away what I should be selling, I don’t know. I think that a paid membership-spelled out in black and white-will be more fair across the board. If some can make donations above and beyond that, all the better. I would like to suggest discounts for seniors and students. That would make it a lot easier for one certain graduate student! I know that probably opens a whole other can of worms that you would probably rather keep on the shelf. Just a thought.

Thanks again.

 

[justinrl]

First, I am new to this site and a great one it is. Lots of details and technical how-to.

Having read much of this thread, I went and made a donation to help keep things going for now, but I really think the membership fee is a good way to go.

If there is a pass made for forming a non-profit org, there are several things that need to be organized and spelled out prior to a formal IRS application, (based on the last 10 years working with one of the larger 501C-3 non-profits) membership is but one of the issues that needs to be spelled out.

Incorporation and designation as a non-profit takes a lot of the personal risk off an individual and places it with the whole group.

 

[Jim in Oakville]

Hi Jeff,

I am in support of either a donation or fee. I like the idea of a fee with priveldges...seeing images, downloading files etc.

I think you do a great job here, I love being able to be a member here and I would pay for that priveldge.

[][][]

 

[guts]

jeff,if it comes down to donations how do we go about donating without using pay-pal,i know it was probably posted but i'm not going to read all 11 pages to see how,please post or e-mail me with instructions,thanks for all the hard work.

 

[CameronPotter]

Hi,

I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, but my feeling on this is:

1. A website needs to be open to the public - that is the point. Thus, charging a membership fee wouldn't work.

2. Donations are sporadic and probably can't be relied upon.

3. Not everyone sells their pens (although I would guess that most do) and so asking for donations of that order may or may not be appropriate.

4. Advertising is fine, but too much and the site becomes awkward to use, too little and you don't make enough money (there may be no overlap between these two extremes).

THEREFORE I suggest (as I notice that a few others have):

A. Remove the site's capability for albums. Let people put their main photo albums elsewhere...

B. Charge small fees for article downloads. That will stop people from downloading an article several times for convenience as they will need to pay a small fee each time...

C. Restrict photo posting in each article to a limited amount/size...

BUT

Then to counteract this, have a membership option where you can be a fee paying member - and you get all of these nice extras. Free album, free article downloads, less limited photo posting capability.

Finally, a yearly pen drive mightn't be a bad idea, much like the pen swap, but it costs a little bit to participate in the pen swap, thus effectively you are selling the pen to another forum member, but all proceeds to go keeping the site alive. [8D]

I hope that I haven't simply echoed what everyone else has said... Better get back to work. [8)]

Cam

 

[BigRob777]

Hi All,
Well, I have the idea that we should try to support the site voluntarily (sp?). If that doesn't seem to be working, then we should look at other means. Dario had a great idea with his raffle. It appears to have taken in enough money to keep this forum afloat for 3 months or more. Kudos to you Dario and all who contributed.

The bottom line is that we need to have enough cash coming in to maintain this forum. If donations are not enough, then maybe we should administer some minor fees. The folks here profit in many ways. Some of us profit financially and everyone profits in learning and fellowship with other pen turners. I know I won't be very popular with this, but if the donations don't work, I wouldn't mind paying a percentage of my sales to this site. In fact, even if it doesn't become compulsary, if this forum keeps losing money, I would recommend that all sellers pay a small percent of their sales. I'm willing to do that even though I'm on a tight budget. I'm not trying to brag. I just think that we need to do whatever it takes to keep this awesome forum afloat.

I don't like to bring attention to myself, which is why I seldom post in topics like this, so please be gentle.[]

Your friend in turning,
Rob

 

[low_48]

Kinda late coming into this post, haven't been reading the polls section lately. I would like to see the classifieds carry a fee. Something like 10% of sales kicked back into the IAP. I would also suggest that certain discussion subjects can be sponsored by a business. They would be able to put their logo on that discussion (Say something like the finishing section sponsored by Minwax, just an example). We could also add another topic that would be sponsor news. This would be the only place their names show up. This would not hit us over the head with advertisement, but would also benefit the newbies with sources of supply. This would make a nice place for Nils to list his sales.Here's a link to another group that I am a member. It shows how this can work.
http://www.forestryforum.com/

 

[opfoto]

I voted for the donations.
I have donated in the past, will continue to donate in the future as I can. But as another paycheck to paycheck survivor, I try to do what I can when I can. I am not a business, there is no tree in my yard. There is only so much to give. SO if a membership fee becomes required then obviously even my donations will eventually dwindle. Sorry.[V]

 

[johncrane]

Im only a new kid on the block but the way I see it .there is 2712 members shouldnt cost that much for a membership.down at local pub here its COST $2.60 for a pot of beer and we pay $4.00 for one acrylic pen blank. and ninety bucks to fill the tank with petrol.we can go on and on forever but. at the end of day if you dont pay;your screwed. you will lose a great web site , just my thoughs. SUCH IS LIFE .from JC DOWN UNDER.I must go now to watch footy.cheers for now/ good luck with the out come.

 

[timdaleiden]

With as much traffic as you have here, it seems that targeted advertising would be the answer. There is no reason for you to foot the costs, unless you feel a compulsion to do so.

Charging fees seems wrong to me. There are other free sites that someone could just as easily visit instead. Most people can deal with ignoring ads that don’t interest them. As long as the advertisers don’t try to interfere with free exchange of opinions and information, I don’t see a problem.

 

[mdburn_em]

Sometimes a guy (or a gal) has to be hitupside the head to cause them to pay attention to what's going on. You're poll question did that to me. I'm sorry to say I had not donated before but I did donate right before writing this post. I'm going to digress a little. Often preachers do not preach/teach about tithing because there have been a few (ok, alot) that just stuck the offering plate out every chance they got and that's all they care about. By a preacher not teaching about a fundamental truth, he robs his parishners of becoming the Christians they are intended to be. The analogy applies here because I passed over the donate link because I just didn't know. Your post made me aware and I will regularly support this site. I have gained so much in knowledge from you fine people, words cannot describe. I will donate, or I will subscribe if that's what's decided...I <u><b>WILL</b></u> continue to be a part of this forum. (Now if all you fine turners could just stop procrastinating and decide once and for all, what the best finish is, I would be happy.)
Sorry this is so long