ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
When you purchase a pen blank, at what stage should you decide you don't like it and expect a refund?
Reasonable expectations?
- Thread starter ed4copies
- Start date
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Cmiles1985
Member
^^^agreed
thewishman
Member
Before any change to the blank - no cutting or turning. Unless there are problems that arise in its internal structure that could not be noticed before turning - pinholes and the like.
PenTurnerfromMaine
Member
When you put your hands on it, period. Can't see how someone can say,"Oh, I have this partway turned and now I don't like it, so you owe me a refund for this, now, unusable blank."
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
The phone rang----now the choices are up----you can vote for as many as you like--so let me know what you think.
Remember, we sell pen blanks made by guys like you, so if we give a refund on a blank that is no longer able to be sold, it has to be charged back to the artist. So, what is fair for everyone??
Remember, we sell pen blanks made by guys like you, so if we give a refund on a blank that is no longer able to be sold, it has to be charged back to the artist. So, what is fair for everyone??
walshjp17
Member
IMHO, if you buy it, it is yours. If you order by mistake, that is your mistake. If the dealer allows returns, contact them to see if they are willing to make good your mistake. Once you put tool to material, all bets are off.
On the other hand, if the dealer sends you something flawed or something you did not order, then by all means get a refund or replacement.
On the other hand, if the dealer sends you something flawed or something you did not order, then by all means get a refund or replacement.
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sschering
Member
If we are talking about just aesthetics and not physical defects I would say 30 days max. Even then buyer pays return shipping..
That is assuming you didn't drill or turn it and the blank can still be re sold.
That is assuming you didn't drill or turn it and the blank can still be re sold.
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As long as the blank turns out to be a reasonable representation of what is pictured on the website selling it, then the pics on the website should be a good gauge of what's inside, and the decision about whether it's what you want should be made when you click the button.
If it varies tremendously, (i.e. pine cone blank without pine cones) or otherwise faulty - as in not-at-all what was pictured, or is defective in some other way, then that's a different story.
If it varies tremendously, (i.e. pine cone blank without pine cones) or otherwise faulty - as in not-at-all what was pictured, or is defective in some other way, then that's a different story.
longbeard
Member
I agree with the above replies.
A pen blank (wood) is like a box of chocolates, you dont know whats on the inside. May look good on the outside with swirl, eyes and the such, but the more you turn the more that figure could disappear. Acrylics are somewhat the same i think. I've had some to loose alot of its swirling colors the closer i get to final size. But once you tun it, its yours,JMO.
Harry
A pen blank (wood) is like a box of chocolates, you dont know whats on the inside. May look good on the outside with swirl, eyes and the such, but the more you turn the more that figure could disappear. Acrylics are somewhat the same i think. I've had some to loose alot of its swirling colors the closer i get to final size. But once you tun it, its yours,JMO.
Harry
plano_harry
Member
Yep, if I have altered it, I eat it. Turned a pink coral trustone recently. Got down to size and it had a big white blob that made it unsellable in my opinion - wife said return it, I said no.
plano_harry
Member
...so she left me 
southernclay
Member
Unless there is gross misrepresentation then no refund. If a blank is a hugely different color, sold as an exhibition grade and has no figure etc.
Or if a blank has a ton of air holes , bigguns etc
But ultimately blanks aren't too expensive, it have to be major for me to want a refund. Maybe let you know of an issue is one thing but wanting something back from that info not likely. I recently bought some blanks, they are great but one came in broken. Not great but not a big deal. Let the seller know as an fyi, glued it back together and clamped....hopefully it will work out, if not I can get at least one Sierra out of it so no biggie.
Now if it was a $50-$100 blank I might be a little more picky but haven't got there yet
Or if a blank has a ton of air holes , bigguns etc
But ultimately blanks aren't too expensive, it have to be major for me to want a refund. Maybe let you know of an issue is one thing but wanting something back from that info not likely. I recently bought some blanks, they are great but one came in broken. Not great but not a big deal. Let the seller know as an fyi, glued it back together and clamped....hopefully it will work out, if not I can get at least one Sierra out of it so no biggie.
Now if it was a $50-$100 blank I might be a little more picky but haven't got there yet
tim self
Member
No defects, not turned or drilled a possible return/replacement of equal value after customer pays shipping. If I've done anything to the blank, I own it.
WHSKYrvr1
Member
No refund. Just save for a PITH and give it as a bonus...
ttpenman
Member
I agree with most of the other replies. Unless there is a manufacturing defect, no refund. If someone has one unturned and they want to pay the return postage (which in most cases wouldn't be worth it) I'd say let them return it.
Jeff in northern Wisconsin
Jeff in northern Wisconsin
Dan Masshardt
Member
Dan Masshardt
Member
If you don't like it, just don't order it again.
If it arrives cracked or something, that's one thing.
If it's untouched and the buyer doesn't like it in person, it should be the same return policy as a pen kit or anything else.
If it's cut drilled or tuned no return unless it's clearly defective in some way that's obvious to all parties.
All that said, I think that you should make your policy clear and obvious on the site and maybe the confirmation email.
If it arrives cracked or something, that's one thing.
If it's untouched and the buyer doesn't like it in person, it should be the same return policy as a pen kit or anything else.
If it's cut drilled or tuned no return unless it's clearly defective in some way that's obvious to all parties.
All that said, I think that you should make your policy clear and obvious on the site and maybe the confirmation email.
Glenn McCullough
Member
If you ordered it and it's what you ordered, it's yours. If the vendor is nice enough to take it back or swap with something else...bonus. But it shouldn't be expected.
Glenn McCullough
Member
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firewhatfire
Member
It's mine if I buy it. If I don't like I will just not buy any of that blank in the future.
edstreet
Member
My vote is "d) refund? whats a refund?"
edman2
Local Chapter Leader
Refund if it has not been altered in any way. Returned at the buyers expense. Store credit given. Each artist could decide if they allow refunds on their products and that can be stated on their page.
Sounds like a real easy thing to run your own business!)
Sounds like a real easy thing to run your own business!
)stonepecker
Member
If I placed an order for wood blanks......I trust the person to send me what they believe is fair.
BURN ME ONCE AND I WON'T PLACE ANOTHER ORDER WITH YOU.
When I order from a picture I can tell a lot if I like it or not. If I order a blank and it is less then $10........I order ONE to see if I like it. If I don't, it is mine and I don't expect any refund.
If the blanks is over $10.00..........I will call the vendor and we can discuss it. If I have done NOTHING to the blank, I would hope that I can trade it back for a different one of the same value.
NOW, If I order a custom made blank and it come with a fault....Then I expect the vendor to make it right with me. Get me what I ordered. When I order anything and it comes in I open the box and inspect everything ASAP. I see something wrong...I call the vendor. (So Far, ALL VENDORS have made things right as far as I am concerned.) I will send back a picture of what I see and talk to the vendor. Sometimes it is just my eye.......other times the vendor has said "Yes, I see that. What can we do?"
One 'special ordered' blank had a very small crack in the resin. The vendor told me a way to try and fix it........I will do so in the future. He also told me that if the blank 'catches' ....he will order another.
This is all about communication. Being "fair" is a two way street.
Time limit? I would thing 90 days would be more then fair for both sides.
AFTER ALL THIS.....YOU CUT IT......TURN IT....PUT IT TOGETHER......IT IS YOURS.
You want to return it for a refund.......return it as you received it.
BURN ME ONCE AND I WON'T PLACE ANOTHER ORDER WITH YOU.
When I order from a picture I can tell a lot if I like it or not. If I order a blank and it is less then $10........I order ONE to see if I like it. If I don't, it is mine and I don't expect any refund.
If the blanks is over $10.00..........I will call the vendor and we can discuss it. If I have done NOTHING to the blank, I would hope that I can trade it back for a different one of the same value.
NOW, If I order a custom made blank and it come with a fault....Then I expect the vendor to make it right with me. Get me what I ordered. When I order anything and it comes in I open the box and inspect everything ASAP. I see something wrong...I call the vendor. (So Far, ALL VENDORS have made things right as far as I am concerned.) I will send back a picture of what I see and talk to the vendor. Sometimes it is just my eye.......other times the vendor has said "Yes, I see that. What can we do?"
One 'special ordered' blank had a very small crack in the resin. The vendor told me a way to try and fix it........I will do so in the future. He also told me that if the blank 'catches' ....he will order another.
This is all about communication. Being "fair" is a two way street.
Time limit? I would thing 90 days would be more then fair for both sides.
AFTER ALL THIS.....YOU CUT IT......TURN IT....PUT IT TOGETHER......IT IS YOURS.
You want to return it for a refund.......return it as you received it.
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Lenny
Member
I voted for number three but in all honesty could not imagine doing it myself. I believe it should be the buyers responsibility for shipping and at the rates today I think it makes it a moot point anyways.
jimofsanston
Member
Should have decided on it before purchasing it.
Sylvanite
Member
As a buyer, if the blank is what I ordered, is as represented, and not defective, then I have no entitlement to a refund. If the vendor allows refunds for buyer's remorse, then I'd expect to pay at least the shipping and return it in new/unused condition.
As a blank maker, if you aren't completely satisfied with one of my blanks, I'll replace or refund the purchase (accept a chargeback), please just don't be capricious.
Regards,
Eric
As a blank maker, if you aren't completely satisfied with one of my blanks, I'll replace or refund the purchase (accept a chargeback), please just don't be capricious.
Regards,
Eric
Lenny
Member
Well, let's just give an example ...
Say you purchase a black with gold matrix trustone blank and when you get it there really isn't much for gold lines running through it. You want to return in for credit or exchange.
Is that realistic?
You are going to pay half the value of the blank in postage. The vendor isn't making out to great either. The only thing he gains, at a price, is keeping a customer happy.
Marc
Member
I would focus on two things, one is the blank being very different than the web site picture as an example. Keep in mind that a wood blank that has been "spritzed" will be quite different than the blank that one receives out of the box. A turner won't really know if it looks like the "spritzed" expectation until it is finished. A similar expectation cannot be fulfilled on an acrylic until it is turned and finished. Also, each blank purchased will usually be different than a picture of a single blank.
Second, physical defects can be difficult to determine until one has put a tool on the wood. Some wood blanks I have turned have been so dry and fibrous that even the sharpest tool could not produce a smooth cut. This kind of wood has just plain been dried for too long and should not have even been sold. I don't think a similar thing happens to acrylics, but don't know for sure.
All that said, I have never returned a blank. I almost always think it's mine to eat or enjoy once I have possession.
Second, physical defects can be difficult to determine until one has put a tool on the wood. Some wood blanks I have turned have been so dry and fibrous that even the sharpest tool could not produce a smooth cut. This kind of wood has just plain been dried for too long and should not have even been sold. I don't think a similar thing happens to acrylics, but don't know for sure.
All that said, I have never returned a blank. I almost always think it's mine to eat or enjoy once I have possession.
Ambidex
Member
...so she left me
Wouldn't have another blank that comes with a guarantee that'd work for me do you Harry??:biggrin:
mbroberg
IAP Activities Manager, Emeritus
My "expectation" of a refund would be consistent with the vendors published return policy. I believe a refund is appropriate if the blank has not been turned. I would not "expect" a refund on any blank that I have in any way altered but if I were offered one, or if that was written into the vendor's return policy I would probably become a very loyal customer to that vendor.
I marked "I haven't turned it, don't like it - refund."
I marked "I haven't turned it, don't like it - refund."
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
That is where this is headed, Dan. I want to be certain my "gut feeling" is fair. THEN, like CSUSA and Berea, we will put a post card in the box stating what our policy is. (At present it IS on the policies page, but I understand very few people---including me when I was buying a lot----read that, so I don't want to "fall back on" information that is published there.)
Dan Masshardt
Member
I don't know if your checkout software would allow for it, but you could have a statement that the buyer would have to check the box at checkout agreeing to the return policy.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
They (the software company that wrote the website) already have that and have checked it as read.
Do YOU ever read it, I sure don't!!!!
I agree with John's statement above... you ordered it... it is yours unless there is a defect in the blank. Too many consumers think that all business must have the same liberal return policies as the Wal-Mart's of the world. Unfortunately, this type of return policy isn't affordable or reasonable for many small businesses.
Wade
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
To be clear, I am not worried about the "letter of the law".
No one has any "right" to return merchandise. It is the store who makes the policy and the customer has to live with it. But, we want to do what is RIGHT, not REQUIRED. If I am selling products out of my pocket, I am much more willing to give refunds than I am if I am making that decision for someone else (one of our artists, for example). So, I want to be fair to everyone. And, society (you all) dictate those mores. I am actually just confirming that I am still "in touch with" the norms.
No one has any "right" to return merchandise. It is the store who makes the policy and the customer has to live with it. But, we want to do what is RIGHT, not REQUIRED. If I am selling products out of my pocket, I am much more willing to give refunds than I am if I am making that decision for someone else (one of our artists, for example). So, I want to be fair to everyone. And, society (you all) dictate those mores. I am actually just confirming that I am still "in touch with" the norms.
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robutacion
Member
Well Ed, I buy and I sell stuff so, I'm on both sides of the fence, I selected the 3th option from the top, and that is to me, the most reasonable of them all however, I don't think that any one policy will please everyone...!
As you will be well aware, anyone with an eBay store has to provide a refund policy for each listing however, some folks think that, they can decided what they want to do/have done, if things don't go their way, regardless who's fault it is...!
Selling internationally can add a few extra problems to the mix, first in the time that takes the item to arrive and secondly is the time that the buyer take to make their decision.
I believe, the return shipping costs are the buyers responsibility, and I believe reasonable that the customer would be given 2 to 4 weeks to make the decision from item arrival time. I don't believe that, an item should wait 6 months, 1 year or more, before the return is even considered, and I can tell you, that I have had that done to me as a seller.
The item should be in the same condition as sent by the vendor (exception do apply when items are damage in transport...!) and extended time at the buyers location can possibly allow the item to become deformed in some way. Certain items are not made to be put away and under extreme conditions, such as, under heavier items, be exposed to extreme heat or cold, be thrown around and not looked after properly, those extreme conditions can very easily interfere with the blank integrity, particularly if the blanks is made with a mix of various materials, the most common being warping, cracking and "separation" so, I would expect to make a refund claim if I had a good reason for it, within 2 weeks max, 4 weeks...!
Coming back to international buyers, the normal return policy is that, the buyer pays for the return shipping, and when they realise that is going to cost them, sometimes more than what the item is worth (but not always), they don't agreed and demand that they get full refund for something they received matching in every way, what was advertised that they didn't care less in reading, and all of a certain, the threats start coming.
On eBay, the negative feedback is normally used as a tool to get what
"they" want, off eBay the media such as forums, Facebook, Twitter and many others are used to tell everyone, how nasty/bad/unfair/ruthless, etc, you are to deal with, if people reading don't know you, they will take this person word over any other, and we all know the troubles that can sometimes, cause.
Store/Vendor return Policies to certain people, don't mean a thing, they have their own ideas to what they have the right of/to and if isn't suitable to them, they will dispute it, until the cows come home. Deal with these people take a phenomenal amount of energy and patience, sometimes, not always, I refund the full amount and either pay for the items be returned or simply forget about it and let them have it, just to get them out of my face however, it can go the other way around and they get nothing if they are not entitled to and, I make sure their name is "blacklisted" so that they can never buy from me again.
As a buyer, and I buy almost everything online, through eBay or not, I do not hesitate to make a complain if I believe, I dion't get what I paid for or simply, the items is faulty or similar, I never had a claim for refund, replacement or credit declined, this may have to do with one of my life rules, which is stated on my IAP signature, that simple principle has taken me a long way however, we are all different and some people are just mongrels, by nature so, how can you fix "stupid"...???:biggrin:
Good luck,
Cheers
George
As you will be well aware, anyone with an eBay store has to provide a refund policy for each listing however, some folks think that, they can decided what they want to do/have done, if things don't go their way, regardless who's fault it is...!
Selling internationally can add a few extra problems to the mix, first in the time that takes the item to arrive and secondly is the time that the buyer take to make their decision.
I believe, the return shipping costs are the buyers responsibility, and I believe reasonable that the customer would be given 2 to 4 weeks to make the decision from item arrival time. I don't believe that, an item should wait 6 months, 1 year or more, before the return is even considered, and I can tell you, that I have had that done to me as a seller.
The item should be in the same condition as sent by the vendor (exception do apply when items are damage in transport...!) and extended time at the buyers location can possibly allow the item to become deformed in some way. Certain items are not made to be put away and under extreme conditions, such as, under heavier items, be exposed to extreme heat or cold, be thrown around and not looked after properly, those extreme conditions can very easily interfere with the blank integrity, particularly if the blanks is made with a mix of various materials, the most common being warping, cracking and "separation" so, I would expect to make a refund claim if I had a good reason for it, within 2 weeks max, 4 weeks...!
Coming back to international buyers, the normal return policy is that, the buyer pays for the return shipping, and when they realise that is going to cost them, sometimes more than what the item is worth (but not always), they don't agreed and demand that they get full refund for something they received matching in every way, what was advertised that they didn't care less in reading, and all of a certain, the threats start coming.
On eBay, the negative feedback is normally used as a tool to get what
"they" want, off eBay the media such as forums, Facebook, Twitter and many others are used to tell everyone, how nasty/bad/unfair/ruthless, etc, you are to deal with, if people reading don't know you, they will take this person word over any other, and we all know the troubles that can sometimes, cause.
Store/Vendor return Policies to certain people, don't mean a thing, they have their own ideas to what they have the right of/to and if isn't suitable to them, they will dispute it, until the cows come home. Deal with these people take a phenomenal amount of energy and patience, sometimes, not always, I refund the full amount and either pay for the items be returned or simply forget about it and let them have it, just to get them out of my face however, it can go the other way around and they get nothing if they are not entitled to and, I make sure their name is "blacklisted" so that they can never buy from me again.
As a buyer, and I buy almost everything online, through eBay or not, I do not hesitate to make a complain if I believe, I dion't get what I paid for or simply, the items is faulty or similar, I never had a claim for refund, replacement or credit declined, this may have to do with one of my life rules, which is stated on my IAP signature, that simple principle has taken me a long way however, we are all different and some people are just mongrels, by nature so, how can you fix "stupid"...???
:biggrin:Good luck,
Cheers
George