Photo Albums (lack of)

[Darley]

Originally posted by Thumbs
<br /><b>Serge</b>,1 Penmaking is fun! Pen wrecking is frustrating. I do both from time to time! Sometimes I continue after I make a good pen and then I wreck it! See? Fun and sometimes frustrating!

And <b>Mark</b>, you are just 200 per cent plus correct! The "EGO" is the only serious problem that has reared it's too ugly head here! And too often![V] I feel very fortunate that I've never suffered from that little problem, however![] Well, there is "some" BS that you mentioned about moanin', whinin', bickerin', and cryin' that goes on around here that does probably turn away some newbies before they get a chance to learn from some of you older hands. I guess I fell in at a good time after the last personality clashes.. But I've seen some of your work too and it's not anything to be ashamed of either.

My "stuff" is simply so-so just good enough to give away to folks who appreciate it. I do like to look at all you guys' pen pictures and I have been inspired by some of them. (<b>William</b> can attest to that, though he probably will not admit to knowing me now!)

I simply don't feel I have any picture worthy pens or photo techniques to contribute that might help any one else. 2We seem to measure someone's expertise by how many stars one has beneath their name or how many pen pictures they post! I feel this might intimidate new members who are as yet unsure of themselves or their abilities or perhaps they're just shy!<b> But!</b> What happens when a new member jumps in with all kinds of enthusiam and maybe some new ideas and sees somebody with hundreds or even thousands of posts to his/her credit? Do you think they'll venture forth with a "new" view or question a methodology in the face of such MAGNIFICENT knowledge and authority? Why do people "lurk" so long before they realize most of us really are truly members of a "Hot Air Club?" Some of us just don't have quite so many stars to our credit! Do we really have a membership numbering more than a thousand? I doubt it!

What has brought that many people here long enough to register and then to have never even posted once? 3 Why did we have so much trouble raising that little money for a new server? Active members truly supported the effort and well! Most of those people people stayed only long enough to see just a few individuals do most of the pen work and talk about it! That's OK! So what?! I think more of those people would have stayed active members if others didn't demand pictures or make them feel unworthy because they didn't "post" anything - words or pictures! Showing pictures of your pens and offering ideas should be appreciated, <u>not demanded</u>..... I agree, these demands are not openly stated as requirements for membership, as far as I know; but the comments in the "Welcome" forum leave little doubt as to their requisite nature. I know, also, that most members would never think to make a bald faced demand for these; but the intimidation factor for newbies has got to turn away a lot of new members who've got to contribute so much in the future!

<b>(OK, now Mark wishes he'd never written anything to this thread, too!) </b>

Sorry! I really don't have much of an "ego" problem even if I sound like it. OK, Type "A++ Personality!"

End Rant, Round #2![][][}][][]

1 : Don't to worries it happen to me and happen to everyone and is no shame or frustation for it, I saw once ( 5 years ago at a woodshow) Richard Raffan to have a catch on a bowl and it was not frustated for it he just change the shape of the bowl.

2 : I don't think that the starts we have under our name make think that the new pen turner is inferior, I was a new penturner and I still am,I don't look the stars under the name but I do apreciated people when they answer to my questions and I try to do my best to achive my task, if one blank blow up on me I take another one and do it again like we say here donwunder " sh#@t Happen and keep going ".

3 : Some people have they hand on they heart to support what they enjoy the most after they work day, sure you enjoy your speach right now god bless the people who help this site, hope you did.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by ligget
<br />I am curious why you want to know anyway?

Because he is also curious. []

 

[Ligget]

Nobody can put me in a bad mood today anyway, I have just received a VERY LARGE cheque today.

This is part payment of my injury compensation that is coming to me soon!![]

Now then what suppliers take PAYPAL. LOL[][][]

 

[PenWorks]

Congrats ! Good ol buddy Mark, where we going for dinner tonight, since your buying []

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have met my match, old age must me mellowing me. [] Eagle has a way of stirring 'it' up without even trying. Such an inocous little subject and [:0] look at the responses it generated. This must be a slow weekend or something. I would stir more except for fear of a boot to the rear and out of the forum door. My 'gripe' postings have probably skirted the edge. And now, I am dirgressing from topic. Uh-Oh! [][]

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Rifleman
<br />

Originally posted by ligget
<br />I am curious why you want to know anyway?

Because he is also curious. []

Frank that was priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To be honest that is exactly why I started this fiasco.
Now the question becomes,
"Why amI curious?"[]

 

[jwoodwright]

"If you tell me what you did I may doubt you,
If you show me what you did you have credibility",
eagle

I Believe Eagle is implying, if you can't/won't prove your work, don't offer advice, or the "old line" don't tell me what you can do, show me...[]

 

[C_Ludwigsen]

And THAT is a falicy. I sell MOST of my pens BEFORE I make them. Many times, I don't have the time or patience to photo every pen. Implying that ANY person here isn't "worthy" of offering advice based on the number of PHOTOS they post is insulting.

 

[Ligget]

LOL, Anthony I will send you over some Haggis if you like![xx(]

 

[ctEaglesc]

there were different reaasons I started the poll.
recently there was a reply in one of the forums that seemed odd to me
Not to embarrass the member, there was a reply that had something to do with "accessories" to pen making recently.
The accessory in question is proprietary to a particular type of pen components.
The answer indicated that the poster was not familiar with the"accessory" but to be "one of the crowd" chimed in a reply.
I went to look at the posters album to see if he indeed may have used the accessory.
Guess what NO album!


Because of the way star count is used I totally ignore that feature.
Reg date won't help much either.
In this case the posters album may have indicated he knew what he was talking about( some people do some people don't)
I didn't want to bring the posters "newness" into play.
I did want to know why he made the answer he did.
I did wonder why people who havce been around for a while don't put up an album.

 

[jeff]

It's getting a little personal here, people.
Everybody take a big step back and a deep breath.

 

[mikes pens]

I use the 24 hour rule. If something bothers or annoys me, I wait 24 hours to respond. If it still bothers me after 24 hours then I respond. At my age, I usually don't remember 24 hours later.

Mike

 

[rtjw]

I am gonna ride that fence all the way don the backyard. I can see eagles point but I can also see other peoples point. It is nice to see someones album because then you can judge their experience for yourself. But at the same time, I have put pics in the SHOW YOUR PENS section but not in my album. Kinda of a lazy thing with me. Dont wanna take the extra time to put it in my album.

 

[jwoodwright]

Didn't mean to "stir the pot".
No One has questioned anyone's worth.
Yes, it's a fallacy that No Photos Equal No Skill/Knowledge...
We all are different and 90% of us have never met and probally won't.
The Photo Album then becomes a reliable tool. Most show a progression of skill. Some are all perfect pens...

There are skilled members who don't post photos... Their choice or situation.

We have members making $1.70 Slimlines and members making $29.00 kits, and every pen in between.

I see this site as being about pen making, not Your Personal Annual Income or your skill or knowledge.

We all like to give advice. You choose to read it and use it.

Then there are the posts I question... trade guitar for lawnmower[?]

This is just my opinion.[]

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by jwoodwright
<br />Didn't mean to "stir the pot".
No One has questioned anyone's worth.
Yes, it's a fallacy that No Photos Equal No Skill/Knowledge...
We all are different and 90% of us have never met and probally won't.
The Photo Album then becomes a reliable tool. Most show a progression of skill. Some are all perfect pens...

There are skilled members who don't post photos... Their choice or situation.

We have members making $1.70 Slimlines and members making $29.00 kits, and every pen in between.

I see this site as being about pen making, not Your Personal Annual Income or your skill or knowledge.

We all like to give advice. You choose to read it and use it.

Then there are the posts I question... trade guitar for lawnmower[?]

This is just my opinion.[]

Then there are the posts I question... trade guitar for lawnmower[?]

What's your point?[^]

 

[ctEaglesc]

There is another reason the online album is helpful.
Earlier today I added to my album a CC pen I made last July.
The original pen went to the gentleman who gave me the corn cobs.
The original picture is in the hard drive of my computer that fried last week.
I have the old hard drive in the computer I am using now but cannot get it to post.
I was able to "save" a picture from an archived thread from last July.I downloaded it back to my computer, saved it, and then put it in ,my album.
Had it been in my album to begin with I wouldn't have "lost" it.


Yet another reason.
I sell to jewlery sores.
There have been occasions where a particular pen is not in my case.
prior to deleting my album a few months ago I have been on sales calls and logged into the IAP album to show sample of my work.

 

[jwoodwright]

Then there are the posts I question... trade guitar for lawnmower

What's your point?

Failed to see the connection to pen making at that point.

Now I do, a guitar is made from wood and inlay materials and strings.
Strings are used to "burn" accent rings into pens, inlay material is used for accent pieces on pens. The lawn mower was tougher, so cuts grass which is what bamboo, palm and corn are. Pens are made from bamboo, palm and corn. Therefore no problem with the post.

[:I][][8D][][][}][:0][]

 

[mikes pens]

Knowing to believe only half of what you hear is a sign of intelligence. Knowing which half to believe can make you a genius.

 

[Thumbs]

<b>John</b>, I strongly disagree! The photo album's use as a skill measuring tool is about the most unreliable thing I can imagine!

You might be able to measure someone's ability to make or show a picture of a pen; but that's about the most you could ever hope to measure with this tool! I can screw up a hundred pens and get one accidentally right! Picture it! Does that prove what a great pen turner I am or the fact that I got one out of a hundred or that I am persistent? What useful measure does this give of my skill as a penturner? Also, what do you care about what's in the personal classifieds. (Oh, was it your guitar?)

And why do you care? If something I say is useful, use it! If not, tell me or ignore it!

As for doing it so I have a backup?......... <b>Eagle</b>, I'm speechless! I know <b>Anthony</b> is amazed! <b>William</b>, too, no doubt!

[][][}][][]

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by mikes pens
<br />Knowing to believe only half of what you hear is a sign of intelligence. Knowing which half to believe can make you a genius.

Mike, which post are you referring to?,
or as the always on time Ed Mcmahon would say
To which post were you referring?

 

[mikes pens]

Just making a general statement that we can listen to information and then decide to use it or not. Not referring to any paticular post though.

Mike

 

[Thumbs]

Is Ed McMahon late?

 

[Ligget]

I think we should put this thread to bed now, going around in circles here![]

 

[ctEaglesc]

Mike that's precisely my point.
I first registered on this site July of last year.
I have visited daily since then (and lurking) before,
In that time there has been an influx of new members.
Some are new members, some are long time pen turners that recently joined for the IAP for what ever reason.
For quite a while I relied on the "stars" to determine a posters credibility.
Upon a few occasions I determined that wasn't a good indicator.
I tried using the registration date, that too doesn't tell me much.
When I look a persons album or their posts in Show off your pens,I read posts praising the work, but I look beyond the praise.
Do I see "rings" in the finish? How id the fit?, grain orientation?
Many times picures are edited to make them look "pretty" but they also "hide" the flaws.
I have made some pretty cruddy looking pens with good design possiblities.I have also made my share of "boring" looking pens.
I beleve if a person thinks enough of their work to post it in an album it along with their posts,it is a good yaard stick of their credibility.
Evidently this must be the case for other members.
I have met 2 members on this forum.
I have gotten more than 2 requests on howe to do something.
Evidently some of the other members use the photographs as an indicator as to who they choose to deem a credible source.
I don't think I am out of line using a picture to gain information about a members credibility.
There are members who are up there in the post count with no photo albums.No posts in show off your pens.
I have always wondered what the reason was, that along with other curiosities I thought of a poll.
I in no way meant to demeen a new member who felt uncomfortable in showing their work.
I remembered when I turned my first pen last June how proud of it I was.
I also rememember being told by a Wood Craft manager whose store is very big into pen turning"why can't you make your pens the way everyone else does, like the catologue?"
If I wanted a pen that looked like a catologue pen I would go out and by one!
Anyway.
Since the stars don't tell ME anything,the Reg date doesn't tell me anything, I like to use the albums.
It is only an indicator.
When I see a member doesn't have an album I look at his profile and read their other posts.
Believe me there are members who have albums I totally ignor( as I imagine I am ignored)
Doesn't bother me.I have thick skin and if I am ignored, how would I know it anyway?
The pictures in my album give me credibility, not to attest to talent but it certainly attests to the fact that I try to be creative.
Even with a picture you cannot tell a good "finish" on a pen from a not so good finsh but it gives me more indication than a star next to a name.
So there you have it the reason behind the poll.
I was trying to find out if I hadneglected a valid reason not to post a picture of your work.
I have yet to see a reason I hadn't thought of.( it may have been a reason I left out,but I only had so many blanks for questions.I was not aware you had to vote to see the results and that is why the "other"category takes a space)
There is no malicious intent, I was trying to give people who chose not to have an album the benifit of the doubt.
I still pretty ignor people with post counts over 250 and no albums, no credibility.
I do not discriminate among the new mebers either.
Had I titled my poll to exclude people with less than 250 posts, how would that have gone over?

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Thumbs
<br />Is Ed McMahon late?

OOPS! senior moment post corrected( will be)

 

[mikes pens]

Eagle, I think you have a perfect right to use whatever criteria you wish to use to get information. I hope to post pictures when I get a chance. I don't mind showing my stuff off - I am quite proud of it. I am just so busy that when I get home from work and taking the kids everywhere, I just want to sit down and veg. I haven't made a pen in two months. Still buying blanks and still plan on making some beautiful pens soon.
Mike

 

[C_Ludwigsen]

If anyone CARES my previous reply wasn't directed at EAGLE. But he obviously readily assumes every post I make IS.

Jwoodwright INTERPRETED Eagles signature to say <b>"if you can't/won't prove your work, don't offer advice"</b>. You can't say that those members with no photo albums or who don't post pictures all the time don't deserve to give advice. That is what he SAID... Read it people. If that is not Eagle's intent in his signature statement, FINE. But that is how at least one person, Jwoodwright, interpreted it. And he said that THAT is what HE thought Eagle is implying. I have a right as a member here to to say that THAT STATEMENT IS PATENTLY FALSE.

And maybe we should let EACH member deem who they find credible by more than ANY SINGLE MEASURE (star count, registration date, number of pens claimed to have turned, existence of or number of photos in their album). Maybe we should ALSO INCLUDE the professionalism, accuracy, clarity, and effectiveness, and politeness of their communications through these posts.

Thank you for clearing up YOUR statement, Jwoodwright.

I HOPE this site has not degraded to the point where the SIZE and COLOR of our text is more important than CONTENT.

 

[Thumbs]

I also just proved <b>Eagle</b> will listen to you even if you don't have an album and have more than 250 posts! Re: the McMahon question......[}]

<b>But</b> he won't hurt my feelings if he doesn't pay any attention to whatever else I say! He doesn't have to! I, of course, don't have to pay him the slightest regard either. We both have that right to choose.

I just say that I make my decision about that every time I see one of his postings. I don't disregard what he has to say out of hand; but I may disagree with him on any subject any time I choose. I simply will try not to bias my decisions on what he says by any preconceived notions of his ability, intelligence, manners, pen pictures, spelling, or any other contrived nonsensical method of measuring anyone's worth!
===================================================================

<b>I just sat here thinking about this some more..... and in short, you're right, my argument is pointless, I agree! If you're liable to prejudice, you're prejudiced. So what! I give up! I quit! Nuff said! </b> I'm just pickin' up all my toys and goin' back home! Bye!

 

[jeff]

I'd like to make a couple points here.

First, as others have pointed out, there are countless ways to evaluate a person's skill at any craft. Taken individually, most are not sufficient to get the full, true story of ability. Relying only on photos of work is as bad as relying only on post count or years of membership. We each have a equation we solve in our heads to determine the reliability of what we read here, and no single forumula is correct and complete. Please respect opinions that are different than yours. If I think the guy with one million posts is the Grand Poobah of penturning and Eagle thinks he's a dope because he doesn't have a fat photo album, then so be it. Mutual respect. We don't need to argue it to death. Make your points and move on.

Second, a word about moderators. The moderator team has a few very well-defined tasks. They can move threads to different forums, lock topics, and make well-placed comments to keep a discussion focused. Because I can't possibly read the hundreds of posts made here daily, their most important job is to let me know when some situation needs my attention. They don't make decisions about who stays or goes, what topics get moved out of public view, or what the site policies are. Those decisions are made by ME. I consult with a few trusted advisors, but in the end, blame ME for what happenes here.

I make this point about moderators because we need to remember that they are members first and moderators second. They are entitled to opinions, they can give advice, and they are free to engage in spirited debate. Just because you might be disagreeing with a moderator does not mean that you stand any more or less chance of hearing from me than if you were dealing with any other member. Anyone who questions whether or not they are being fairly dealt with by a moderator has missed the point.. Moderators don't DEAL with anyone, I do.

I appreciate everyone's contributions to this topic, but I think it's time to lock it. As always, feel free to email me with your concerns, complaints, and criticisms.

Now I'm going to spend some time with my family and enjoy the remaining holiday weekend.

My best regards to you all!