Logo Use - Mandatory Linkback

[Daniel]

Originally posted by Gary
<br />First, if you look at my previous posts I've voted NO with regards to the IAP link back. My input now is simply to share with the Board a thought. When you accepted the idea to run as a Board Member, you put yourself in the position of making decsions that affected peoples lives and livelihoods. If you didn't think of that, then woe be to you. Please don't make decisions withought researching them...that's what Board Members are supposed to do. Get the facts then make a decision. Did you do that in this case?

Gary
Just in case you are missing it. that is just what we are doing. there is no way to know before hand what issues will be "Hot Spots"
I am convinced we are doing just what we should be expected to do.
or mission statment does not say we are here to support business owners.

 

[Daniel]

WOW,
You all are making this tough. speaking as a board memeber. let me inturrupt myslef for a note to Gary. Please do not take my comment above affensivly. it really is intended to shed some light as to why we are conducting this poll. and express a slighltly different view of my concerns as a board member. now back to my overall comments.
as of my last check this poll is split rught down the middle. 30 to 31.
suppose you all can make it just a little tighter I say that from the prosrective that my commitment is to lead according to the will of the members. this is now the single hardest issue I have seen yet. there have been disagreements. but the will of the group has always come through clear for me. here there is equal pull in both directions.
Jim, your post at the very beggining of this thread really struck a nerve for me. I clearly see your point as a web sight owner I have also thought about this. in my case I have linked to every penturning group I belong to. this does not mean I don't agree with our point. I don't pay my bills with my turning either.
sadly I do not see the focus of this group is ment to fit the needs of a business owner. I hope a solution can be found for this problem. and appreciate the tone of exceptance you have in your post. not happy but willing to axcept the outcome. your concerns will not weigh lightly for me though.
Gary, you wrote."In real life, I'm a sales rep representing a host of companies, and I belong to several Trade Associations. Each and every one of them allows me to use their logo on my web site, and none of them requires me to link back to their home page."
this sparked some thinking for me that I will not go into detail here.
If you would could you e-mail me about some of these specifically. sort of on a search for what is common practice here sort of thing. not sure as a sales rep I would be looking at apples compaired to apples. but I am perked up enough to follow this train of thought for a bit.

Chuck. you phrase something I have been thinking as well. Don't raise questions you are not willing to answer I have a leaning toward this myself. for me it is like this. you want the logo. Why? one reason is to lend credability to your craftsmanship??? your support in your knowledge, talent etc. but the logo alone would only leave the very person you are trying to impress the inability to verify if memebrship in this group is anything at all. i would want the link so a customer could see if membership in the I.A.P. amounted to a hill of beans. just one way to look at it but one I tend toward.

Wayne. you wrote "I think that it's a joke if you think that anyone would put the logo on a business card or web site ONLY to promote the IAP. If someone is going to take up space on a card or web site its because they think that it will help promote their product."
then it is a Joke that I ever put the Logo (with link back) on my web sight. I put it there many months ago when this group would have been a liability to promoting my pens. there actually are members that have this group at heart. I am one of them.
here is a thought that may be now to you. and may just be making your point in a different way. the rulers of the internet, Google and such, that web sight onwners seem very interested in pleasing, tend to like the internet as an information network. linking toa sight that is primarly information causes them to like you sight better. just some info from my google chasing days. now I just make my sight the way I like it. if that pleases google than so much the better.
are there tose that want to make themselves look like better penturners by haveing a Logo. maybe. but I think there work will be more convincing than any Logo. and they will have alot more of that on there pages than I.A.P.
in final. I, as a board member am really on the fence here. regardless of my personal choices. thanks all for contibuting. good points are made on both sides. I can't say either side has offered any hard evidence to support there thoughts. this does not mean your thought are not valid though. You all are just splitting this log with a diamond cutter.
You know you don't have to make us earn our pay.
keep the comments coming.

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by Daniel
<br />Jim, your post at the very beggining of this thread really struck a nerve for me. I clearly see your point as a web sight owner I have also thought about this. in my case I have linked to every penturning group I belong to. this does not mean I don't agree with our point. I don't pay my bills with my turning either.
sadly I do not see the focus of this group is ment to fit the needs of a business owner. I hope a solution can be found for this problem. and appreciate the tone of exceptance you have in your post. not happy but willing to axcept the outcome. your concerns will not weigh lightly for me though.

I am not going to get upset at the outcome of this issue either way. I do have a successful website now without the IAP logo. If the current requirement stands, I will have a successful website without the logo next week. Based on the last visitor log report I looked at (July '04 through Nov '04), I received an average of 373 visitors (not page views) per day. None of these visitors saw the IAP logo. Would the IAP Board like for 373 of my visitors to see our logo every day? I guarantee my site will produce quite a few members without a linking requirement. I know this based on the emails I regularly receive from new pen turners who visit my website. I am making a business decision not to post a link on my homepage that "might" result in a customer losing focus of making a purchase. The IAP Board might consider making a business decision that 373 viewings per day from my site alone is better than none. I will most certainly post a link to the IAP website on my links page. That helps the search engine rankings for the IAP and doesn't hurt my business.

Respectfully yours,

 

[timdaleiden]

&gt;&gt;&gt;o(u)r mission statment does not say we are here to support business owners.&lt;&lt;&lt;

You know what Daniel, you are right. I can't argue with that. So to be consistent, the LOGO should not be available for Business cards, Craft Show displays, or Websites.

I remember a long time ago when I started talking with Scott about a LOGO. I thought it would be a neat thing for members to show off. I thought it would be a great thing to dress up the front page of this Site. I thought we would be giving a gift to all of the people who joined up here. I knew there would be restrictions, as there should be. I didn't that there would be quite so many strings attached.

I know that you and the other board members are doing your best to try and sort everything out. I know how much you are getting paid to do this work. I know some of these decisions are not easy.

With all of that being said, I hope the board members consider snipping a string or two. I want people to be able to use the LOGO.

 

[RussFairfield]

You know what?? Jim has the solution.

If our Website is there for selling a product, there should be nothing on that front page to take the potential buyer's focus away from our mission to sell them something. The only link that should be there is one to a pen that is for sale.

It doesn't matter whether there is a link or not. If the logo is a distraction from the purpose of the website, it shouldn't be there.

Save the links for the links page.

 

[Daniel]

Tim,
thanks for your comment. for me it is a bit of all or nothing. I am not saying all use of the logo for business pourposes should be forbidden. what I am looking for is how the issue of a link back fits into our stated pourpose. in short something has to break the stalemate for me. and I look to the mission stament and By Laws for that. in looking at that. should I as a board member vote to change a rule based upon the impact it has on a penturners Business? I don't see much in the groups pourpose that would require I consider a members business for any reason. this could change in time as the members that have business also have the most at stake. the primary item I am focusing on now is. how does this rule impact the promotion education and sharing of information. when I look at it that way it is an issue of accessability.
sort of like. How does a link back effect a persons exposure to our craft. this is right at the heart of our pourpose. I also see that the group exists for the members to support it. and that the group will evolve to be what they want it to be. one causes me to lean in favor of the link back. the other away from it again. or at least center on the fence again. this may very well be a case in which we will find out if the Buy Laws do the job they are intended to do.
you lean toward a compromise type answer at the end of your comment. I'll dwell on that a bit and see if something perks for me.
I am not against your thinking. I am just not convinced your focus is the same as what this group is to be focused on. not convinced there not either. just pondering deeply. the decision is going to be by a hair as it looks to me.

 

[Daniel]

Jim,
I defenitly get your reasons. in spades. and I don't get you are upset. In fact I have been a business owner. and I think I understand very well what is behind your decision. for me it is that attitude that friends are friends. and business is business. and you must be able to seperate the two. it is this level headed and responsible chioce making that I see in your comments. and it has a powerful impact on my thinking. refering to my post above. how does the link back effect accessability.
if we eliminate a sight like yours with 300 plus visitors with this requirment. so I am not saying that link back is the best way to gain visitors here. what about the guy that you mentioned that sw your work and wanted to know about how to do it. and is now a guild member? how many others would start turning pens if the could simply click to get here? does the e-mail vs. click really make a difference at all?
Knowing you as I ahve. you have no problem incouraging your competition and even teaching them. so I see the distinction you are making about putting this fact up front on your place of business. I do not like the idea of "alienating" our most "invested" members in this way. for lack of better words.
nobody can just wave the majic mouse and make this an easy issue. I am very glad we started this poll though. i had no idea the opinions where so close about this.

 

[btboone]

Another potential solution: people could put the logo on their site where pens are seen and put a link in a separate location where links are placed. It doesn't necessarily distract the customer from a sale that way. He can still find out what the heck that logo stands for, but will have to look a little more to do that.

 

[RussFairfield]

Daniel,
A couple things that would influence a decision.....

If exposure of the IAP is the mission, then it would be best to allow the Logo to be used without any strings attached to it. Wouldn't it be far better to have the logo displayed with no link, when the only alternative would be no logo at all on these active websites.

Then there is tha matter of enforcement. Once a rule has been made, it has to be enforced. Otherwise, it is a useless rule. If a link is required on the Logo, is someone going to look at all of the penturning sites on the Internet to see if they are all legal, or if they are even IAP members. Assuming a violation is found, what will be done about it?? A rule that cannot be enforced is a useless rule.

 

[melogic]

Why play hide and go seek with the logo? If the people you sell your pens to do not have your trust and are willing to purchase a pen from someone else, then let them go. I have had a couple of my customers visit this site and see a few different ideas from some of the other members and then they ask me if I can produce something like this for them. I have gained the trust of my customers. This is not my livlihood, just a money making hobby, but I think this issue is getting blown out of proportion. Use the logo, link back to the IAP. Don't link back to the IAP, don't use the logo. If the logo is diplayed, can't your customers go to the site anyway? What's the difference in this and linking to the IAP?

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by melogic
<br />I have gained the trust of my customers. This is not my livlihood, just a money making hobby, but I think this issue is getting blown out of proportion. Use the logo, link back to the IAP. Don't link back to the IAP, don't use the logo. If the logo is diplayed, can't your customers go to the site anyway? What's the difference in this and linking to the IAP?

Mark,
I respect your opinion. However, you have not studied internet marketing like some of us have. You probably do have the trust of most of the existing customers who have placed orders in the past. I am the same. However, existing customers represent less than a half of a percent of the total traffic on a typical website. The goal of a website store is to get the customer from arrival to purchase in as few clicks as possible. The typical surfer will leave quickly if he has any difficulty finding what he is looking for. We spend endless hours designing and redesigning our sites to make them as simple and user friendly as possible. There are a HUGE amount of potential sales that are right on the edge of making a purchase. Adding one distraction can very well make the difference in many sales. If such a visitor leaves your site, the odds are very slim that he will return. This is a fact. I don't think I am blowing this out of proportion. Like I said before, I will post a logo but not a link on my homepage. If this cannot be done within the rules, I won't post a logo. I fully understand that my business is the least of the IAP Board's concerns. However, I could be an excellent tool for them to attract new members. Why throw away these potential members?

 

[melogic]

Jim,
I have designed a few sites in the past, probably not as many as most of you. But, if the logo is on your site with the web address on it, can't the person go the the IAP anyway? I understand that they have to make a few more steps, other than that what's the difference? When a link exchange is done, it is just that, a link exchange. If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.

 

[Daniel]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />Daniel,
A couple things that would influence a decision.....

If exposure of the IAP is the mission, then it would be best to allow the Logo to be used without any strings attached to it. Wouldn't it be far better to have the logo displayed with no link, when the only alternative would be no logo at all on these active websites.

Then there is tha matter of enforcement. Once a rule has been made, it has to be enforced. Otherwise, it is a useless rule. If a link is required on the Logo, is someone going to look at all of the penturning sites on the Internet to see if they are all legal, or if they are even IAP members. Assuming a violation is found, what will be done about it?? A rule that cannot be enforced is a useless rule.

Russ,
Someday I gotta meet you face to face. You have the most compelling arguments of anyone I know, consistantly. most likely because you are not arguing at all. anyway this is a really strong point. Why have a rule that limits the exposure of our Logo when it is an empty rule in the first place?
One we are purely rellying on the honor of our members to follow the rules.
but the other half. the why limit the exposure rocked me.
maybe enough.

 

[timdaleiden]

Originally posted by melogic
<br />I have designed a few sites in the past, probably not as many as most of you. But, if the logo is on your site with the web address on it, can't the person go the the IAP anyway?

Lou showed two versions of the LOGO, one has the address, the other only says member. I don't think it was a requirement to use the one with the address on it. If that is required, once again, I would not use it.

 

[Daniel]

Mark,
the Logo as we are discussing does not have the web address for penturnes.org.
in my thinking an outright link exchange is anouther animal. one that is not good for a sight as i understand it.
having links to this sight is in the interest of this group as far as the Net World is concerned. having the Logo Visable is also of interest to this group from a visability prospective. and the nature of human curiosity is no small tendancy either. So I do agree with the they will see and seek theory. I just don't think they will seek in the same number as they would click. this is also validating the "Business owner members" decision to not put a link on there front page. so that leaves. getting at least visitors that are curious enough. or non at all from those "most busy of all" sights.
allowing the members to put links here falls into supporting penturners for me. making changes to rules to meet the needs of "Business" sight is starting to step over a line for me. a fuzzy line hense my wavering and staying on this so much. I will know when I have settled on a decision for myself. and I am not there yet. all the comments are sparking thought though.

 

[BogBean]

I like Shane's idea of a portal page but I would add a link to the IAP home page from the portal page...

Originally posted by woodscavenger
<br />Why not a link to a basic organization information webpage with basics on how much work it take to handcraft a pen. You don't need to give a link to everybody else selling them. You don't need to quote prices. But give information about what it takes to do this and do it well. People can access the main pages if they search for them. I would bet most people looking to buy don't care to read the boards and don't care to look through everybody's profile to find someone new to buy from.

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by melogic
<br />Jim,
I have designed a few sites in the past, probably not as many as most of you. But, if the logo is on your site with the web address on it, can't the person go the the IAP anyway? I understand that they have to make a few more steps, other than that what's the difference? When a link exchange is done, it is just that, a link exchange. If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.

I am not talking about building websites, I am talking about studying internet marketing and statistics. As Tim and Daniel noted, the logo we would post is the one that says "Member". We are also not talking about a link exchange. We are talking about legal use of a trade logo. Do you think my website address is in my signature to attract customers from www.penturners.org? It is there so members who have an interest in seeing different people's websites can check mine out as well. If the IAP Board decided that was not appropriate, I would have no problem with that either. I am certainly not trying to get pen sales from this site.

That being said, I am stepping aside. Everybody knows how we both feel on the topic. For the people with business websites, it is a matter of exposure to the IAP or no exposure to the IAP. If anyone wants to discuss the matter with me offline, feel free to send me an email. I don't want to digress into what may appear as an argument.

 

[woodscavenger]

Blah blah blah...this feels like an all day root canal. Can't we just all get along? I hope you all come to a common agreement without losing any valuable members.

 

[RockyHa]

Perhaps this is going to seem confrontational but it isn't ment to be.
I don't understand the boards position that a link back from the logo should be required from a web site while the logo on the items sold by IAP cafeepress site doesn't show the URL? It would seem that if the link back is necessary in order to comply with the bylaws, the URL would be incorperated into the logo on the items sold and all hard copy logos.
Rocky

 

[wayneis]

Some people keep saying that the IAP is only about education so I have a question. How long do you think that this art or craft will be around if we don't make any money at it? A person can only make so many pens for nothing, we each only have so many friends and relitives to give them to for free. I guess what I am getting at is that maybe the IAP should be about furthering our business interests or there won't be a use for the IAP will there?

Wayne

 

[wdcav1952]

Originally posted by woodscavenger
<br />Blah blah blah...this feels like an all day root canal. Can't we just all get along? I hope you all come to a common agreement without losing any valuable members.

Hey, why the sudden, vicous, unwarranted attack on dentists?!?! I LIKE doing root canals all day! You have savaged my morale and must be challenged to a duel. How do you feel about 1 inch skews at 50 paces? No fair sharpening with one of those fancy sharpening tools, hand honing only.

BTW, you haven't lived until you have seen some of the spalted molars I see on a daily basis.[]

Yours for better tongue in cheek humor.

 

[PenWorks]

I hear you Bill []

I even saw an add for Progressive Auto Insurance in one of these posts, that hurt my feelings []

Anthony

 

[Old Griz]

Mark,
If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.[/]
SO in your thinkingis, the members websites should not be in the links area unless we post the IAP logo... Am I correct
I thought the purpose of this group was the support of penturning and therefore the MEMBERS who do it.. as Jim said we don't post our website links here to sell pens to the members.. that would be like trying to sell snow to Eskimos... LOL... we do it to show the other members what we do and hopefully give them some ideas on doing it themselves..
Your suggestion would mean not only removing the links from the link area but from our signatures as well...

 

[Mudder]

Originally posted by Old Griz
<br />Mark,
If the IAP logo on your site is not linked back to here, then a link to your site should not be allowed on this site.[/]
SO in your thinkingis, the members websites should not be in the links area unless we post the IAP logo... Am I correct
I thought the purpose of this group was the support of penturning and therefore the MEMBERS who do it.. as Jim said we don't post our website links here to sell pens to the members.. that would be like trying to sell snow to Eskimos... LOL... we do it to show the other members what we do and hopefully give them some ideas on doing it themselves..
Your suggestion would mean not only removing the links from the link area but from our signatures as well...

Very nice Tom but why link to your site AND have a photo gallery?
From what I can see, I believe this group is doomed to fail. When I first came here I thought this group was very much like another group that I frequent. It had nice folks who helped each other and contributed to the success of the group. Now I see there are many folks here who want every advantage to slant to their favor. I have seen the officers attacked and maligned. These folks are not paid to do this and I would not blame them at all if they all told us to take a flying leap.

We can give many reasons why we link to our own website but you cannot mask that you hope that someone will look at this site, see your pens, find your link and go to your site and purchase something. I'm not picking on you Tom, your post is the one that illustrates my point the best. I have a site and I sell pens. It is not my primary source of income so maybe I am biased. I do not have any links to my site here and I do not intend to. I have an IAP logo on my homepage and it links back here. As I believe it should be. The way I see it, someone is paying the bills to keep this place here. I am a guest in his or her house and I am not going to spit on their carpet. I view it as a simple choice. Use the logo with the rules that are set fourth or do not use the logo. This whole thread illustrated my point that with all the infighting in such a young group, it will not be long before we self destruct.

Here's another idea. If you want to use the logo and not link back to the IAP then you should pay a yearly fee to do so. This way the IAP will benefit from the link back, or it will benefit monetarily and help to offset the costs of keeping this site alive.

Of course this is only my lowly opinion, I am probably wrong.



Respectfully,

Scott

 

[wdcav1952]

Scott,
You make a valid point in that the tone of the posts and the apparent personal attacks are not conducive to the longevity of this group. I belong to both this group and the Yahoo group and enjoy both. Until recently, this group had less potential for tension within the group.

I would like to try a risk/benefit analysis of the situation.

Link Back to IAP

Risk:
Potential loss of customers due to people following the link.
Benefit:
Promotion of the IAP with the intent of increasing awareness of the art of penturning.

Risk:
Loss of harmony within our fraternity.
Benefit:
Introducing others to our fascinating hobby.

Risk:
If requirement is dropped, some may see that shouting and near-flaming is the way to run the IAP.
Benefit:
If requirement is dropped, harmony MAY return to the group.

Risk:
If requirement is dropped, some Board members may choose to leave their position and perhaps even the group.
Benefit:
Potential financial benefit for those who depend on their website for a significant portion of their income.

Proposed solution:
Rework the IAP logo to include the website address in the logo. Remove the linkback requirement. Those with a true interest will seek out the site on their own.
Do not allow modification of the logo. The logo should be uniform on all sites. Otherwise it is not a true logo.
Clothing with the present logo should not be changed. (Eagle, however, should change his boxers occasionally &lt;G&gt Future merchandise should have the new logo with the web address included.

For what it is worth, please consider my thoughts and add your own, albeit in a non-confrontational manner.

 

[Scott]

Hi Everybody!

I'm going to end this poll tonight (Friday). So PLEASE, vote if you haven't already, and post your comments! The discussion here is helping to form policy!

Scott.

 

[woodpens]

Originally posted by wdcav1952
<br />Proposed solution:
Rework the IAP logo to include the website address in the logo. Remove the linkback requirement. Those with a true interest will seek out the site on their own.
Do not allow modification of the logo. The logo should be uniform on all sites. Otherwise it is not a true logo.

That sounds like a reasonable compromise. I do have one difference of opinion, and it is quite non-confrontational. []
I think there should be a logo with each of the skill recognition levels on it. You are authorized to display the logo without the skill level or the one with the skill level you have achieved. That would be something you could proudly display. Just a thought...

 

[wdcav1952]

Jim,
Excellent point, I did not think of that.

 

[Gary]

While on the subject of the logo...why is there no Copywrite or Registered Trademark symbol on it at the web page, or on the logo used on the promotional shirts, caps, etc?

 

[Daniel]

Gary,
at this time the Logo is not registered. just one more of the long list of things that need to be done. some issues as to why these things arenot yet done.
Funds. regardless of what we would like to get done. many of them require money. and cash seems to not be as abundant as opinions and suggestions.

time. although many are spending far more time working for this group than is sane. it is making only so much of an impact on the list of wants, needs and desires. I have a little guideline when I see a suggestion. when the person that suggested it thinks it a good enough idea to actually start doing something about it. I will fall in behind them. it is far to easy to set on the sidelines and think it should be this way or that. or this should be done or that should be done.

experience. some things fall through the cracks simply because this is our first time though them. having all the answers before hand is impossible.

 

[Gary]

Thanks Daniel...I had just now noticed it and was curious.

 

[woodscavenger]

I like the web address in the logo. If people want to they can find it. I also like the skill level idea. By the way, what are the levels and how do I qualify for the bumbling woodworker level?

 

[sptfr43]

hello everyone. I have only watched and learned since joining this wonderful site. it seems this whole logo thing is getting to be quite the hot topic.the questions I have are how long has the iap been around? and during that time has there always been a logo? If so why the sudden interest or need to have a link back? I found this site because I was curious having seen it mentioned on another site several times. all without a link. are people really that lazy that they won't take the extra steps to type in an address? and if they are how much ambition are they going to have to actually go out and take the knowledge they gain here and put it to use? It all just seems like overkill to debate and stress about something that in reality probably isn't going to change the way we all live and breath. having said that I want to thank all of you for sharing your knowledge so freely. My skills have improved greatly because of it.

Randy

 

[patrick_1853]

I would like to bring up the results of a previous poll.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=66&results=1
The results of this poll show that out of 100 people who replied, only two made sales through the website. Another big thing brought up in that poll topic was that most people don't use their website to sell pens but to basically use it as a larger brochure.
Now, I don't have a website so this is really a non-issue for me, and honestly wish I could retract my vote and stay out of it.

Now, with exceptions of course, isn't selling pens more of a hands on activity. If your like me a picture of my pens, even one that was proffesionally taken wouldn't show the true beauty of the wood. It also wouldn't tell a customer if a given pen really fit their hand as well as another.

Basically, is a link on your website really gonna be that big of a deal either way?

Patrick

 

[Gary]

Can we just put this Logo-Link-Back to rest and be done with it?

 

[Daniel]

Randy,
Just a litle bit to catch you up to speed. this sight just celebrated it's first birthday. the Logo has been around from the beginning. But you coudl consider the I.A.P. beginning as back in november with the election of our first president.
the Logo was not "officialy" released for use until just a few days ago. with guidlines decided on by the Board. this is what all the hu bub is about. some. or more specifically one of the guidlines are not setting well for some members. and this is pretty much split down the middle.
as for dropping the issue. well I guess we could and that way we could just ignore one of the biggest issues going for the group. that is demonstrating responsible leadership. of course it would leave time to focus on other popular items like the development of pen comparison information that as far as I can tell nobody is showing much interest in.
I have anouther idea. how about just accepting that this is an issue that alot of people are motivated to speak up about. and just might warrant a complete conversation.
I know that it has brought some new thoughts up for me about just what is behind the big concern.
Sure I know it gets old , confusing, tiring, and confrontational. so why bother.