Turning Damascus Steel Pen Blank: Lessons Learned

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SteveG

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This ended up being a very long post. It will probably be of interest mostly to those wanting to turn Damascus Steel (DS) pens, and who are limited by having a light duty lathe. I recently posted two threads...one was soliciting suggestions and the second was presenting the Damascus Steel (DS) pen I have made. This thread is a listing of things I learned and tooling I used to do the job. My metal lathe is a Micromark 7 X 16, and it was right at, or perhaps a little beyond, the limits of this machine to do the task (at least with the tooling that I used). Please understand, what you are reading is NOT the voice of vast experience, but rather the voice of almost NO experience! This was the first significant pen item I have made on a metal lathe. What I did, and what tooling I used was based on suggestions I rec'd in the first thread where I asked for help. You can see photos of the turning stock and the pen in the Show Off Your Pens thread.

The material I used was from a DS twisted rod said to be made from motorcycle chains. Whether this was easier or more difficult steel to drill and turn than other types of DS, I do not know. The rod was about 1.2" diameter, with the look somewhat like that of a thick rope. Just for fun I mounted it on the lathe to try to ruff turn it. If I would have continued with that, it would have beat my mini lathe into a small pile of busted up iron and plastic gear parts. I sent the rod off to Nikitas who had offered to turn it down to a smooth rod. So I started my work with a smooth turned rod, about 5/8" diameter.

This is a list of steps taken and tooling used, along with eval statements of same:

1. Cut rod to length. Used cutoff wheel on my Milwaukee rotary tool. Worked fine.

2. Center drilling with HSS and HSS-Cobalt center drills. Both types of center drills went dull fairly quick. To sharpen with Drill Dr. would require grinding off the small diameter tip, producing a spotting drill that had the angle limitations of the Drill Doc. I suggest having a few center drill bits on hand.

3. Drilling the stock for the pen kit components. I had bought a select group of drill bits in the sizes I would need for the variety of taps and dies I have bought for kitless work. I ordered upgraded HSS bits. These were HSS/Cobalt...more expensive. Here is my major lesson learned. Regular, high quality HSS bits immediately go dull...worthless. Upgraded HSS/Cobalt bits work, but go dull fairly quicky. The Cobalt bits eventually got the job done, but only after many, many return trips to the Drill Doc. Before I do another DS pen, I will buy Carbide tipped drill bits. My idea is to gets about four carbide bits which will get the initial through hole and then a slightly undersized hole which I will then finish with the HSS/Cobalt bit to the final size.

4. Turning. I used Carbide insert tooling, the triangle shape with 1/32" radius cutting point. This seemed to work well, taking light cuts. I used the three "points" on one insert for turning the single, 3" pen barrel. (One point chipped, the second went a little dull, and I put up the fresh point for the final, finish cuts.) I expect a brazed carbide tool bit would have worked fine, but just did not try or use them.

5. Producing the final, curved profile. After turning the 5/8" rod down to just over.500" (near finish size), I mounted the fresh carbide point of the insert. and then proceeded to turn an approximate final curved profile by swinging the compound rest way over to 1 or 2 degrees to rough in the profile. This followed by some 80 grit emery cloth and working with a file, and then the rotary tool with progressively finer flexible sanding disks, ending with 240 grit. Finally, hand sanding with 400, then 600 grit sand paper. The blank looked like polished steel

6.Etching. (Bought acid powder on ebay: Ferric Chloride.) Did the etching following instructions provided to me in the 'help' thread. Worked fine, 5 minutes in the acid, and rinse. Let it set for some hours, then cleaned up the surface, and wax coat applied. Pressed on the pen kit hardware. Done.

Comments. I would not even try this again until have carbide (tipped) drill bits. During the drilling phase everything had to be exceptionally tight: the collet chuck, the drill chuck and the lock-down of the tail stock. (Note on the tailstock lock down for drilling: I had to make that so tight I thought I was going to break something!) At several points each of these three gripping points slipped, even though I thought they were tight enough! I used cutting fluid continuously, for every operation, including the filing.

I spent a very large amount of time drilling (and Drill Doctoring). Using carbide drill bits should change that. Otherwise, a fun and rewarding project. I welcome inputs from anyone, and am happy to answer any questions this write-up might provoke.
 
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Dalecamino

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Thanks for the write up Steve. You worked around, and with your challenges very well. Having Nikitas turn that rod round was a good move. We have the same lathe, and I understand the limitations of them.

Glad you got the opportunity to have some fun!
 

More4dan

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From your write up the damscus was not in an annealed condition. If it had been, HHS would have worked. The DS must have been quiched from high temperature leaving it heat treated. It can be annealed by bringing it back above treating temp and cooled very slowly. Most of your problems would go away. A local knife maker or professional heat treat company could help you. It should cost less than a single carbide bit. They should also be able to test the hardness before and after.

Danny
 

thewishman

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Thanks, Steve! What an adventure. I was having trouble with drilling some rebar - the cobalt bits were just not cutting. Bought a $30 carbide tipped drill bit and the tip snapped off without even marking the steel. Had to get new cobalt bits to finish the drilling.

Your pen looks amazing.:)
 

Curly

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What speeds were you using to drill the steel?

I agree with Danny about the hardness. The issues you had with insert chipping and dulling will likely be the same with carbide drill bits unless you have the steel softened.
 

SteveG

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Thanks for the continuing education guys. :) It sounds like annealing will become my new best friend! This I learn after the first Damascus pen, but before the rest of them! I do not even know if I can find an annealing service on this small island where I live, but I will find one. I currently own three-12 inch rods of Damascus (minus the 3" length used to make my first pen from this material). I am looking forward to more fun ahead...annealed fun! :biggrin::wink:
 

SteveG

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You have natures forges all around you. Volcanos. :wink:


OK Curly...Have you ever approached to within "reach out and touch" closeness to flowing lava? :eek: I have. :biggrin::tongue:

Now, would you please come on over and show me your suggested technique for volcano-annealing? I am eager to learn! :rolleyes:
 

randyrls

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Steve; Almost any shop that does blacksmithing can anneal a piece of steel for you. Knife-smiths can do that too! Cut the pieces to rough length and anneal. You can even make an annealing furnace from a few fire bricks and a large torch.
 

duncsuss

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Thanks for the continuing education guys. :) It sounds like annealing will become my new best friend! This I learn after the first Damascus pen

Steve ... would it be nit-picking to point out that I did suggest this to you in your first thread asking how to deal with damascus? LINK :cool:
 

SteveG

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Thanks for the continuing education guys. :) It sounds like annealing will become my new best friend! This I learn after the first Damascus pen

Steve ... would it be nit-picking to point out that I did suggest this to you in your first thread asking how to deal with damascus? LINK :cool:

From Duncan's earlier post:
I have no metalworking experience beyond repurposing a couple of old files into woodturning scrapers, so this is a question from a complete novice:

Could you anneal the rod to reduce the hardness of the steel?

(If you're making pens out of it, there's no real advantage to having it capable of holding a sharp edge or being able to support a railway bridge.)
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Duncan Suss

Duncan, I put your earlier post here. Now you tell me...how am I supposed to learn from that?? :confused: You did not say it loud enough, nor did you grab me by the ear and shove my face into it.:tongue:

Actually, I was in information overload, and did the best I could with what I had to work with (small brain :wink:). Thanks for the reminder...I could have saved a lot of time and effort if I had done the annealing thing first, especially if I had done volcano-annealing. :eek:

Instead, spent a few days in the school of hard knocks...
 

southernclay

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Thank you Steve! One of these days I will get some time at the metal lathe, have someone else turn the rod down and have it annealed as well!:biggrin: Thanks for all the wisdom!
 

SteveG

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Kipu Forge - Kauai, Hawaii Blacksmith and Custom Ornamental Metalwork

Also a ceramics oven can be used. Need to heat to about 1600 F hold for 10 min and leave it closed as it cools overnight.

Thanks Danny :good:
for turning up the island boy doing metal work. I got in touch with Ted at Kipu Forge, and will be dropping off the three 12" Damascus rods for annealing later this week. I am excited about having this material being easier to work. It looks like I will need to write an addendum to my "lessons learned". :biggrin:
 

More4dan

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Kipu Forge - Kauai, Hawaii Blacksmith and Custom Ornamental Metalwork

Also a ceramics oven can be used. Need to heat to about 1600 F hold for 10 min and leave it closed as it cools overnight.

Thanks Danny :good:
for turning up the island boy doing metal work. I got in touch with Ted at Kipu Forge, and will be dropping off the three 12" Damascus rods for annealing later this week. I am excited about having this material being easier to work. It looks like I will need to write an addendum to my "lessons learned". :biggrin:

Glad its working out. How much is it costing for the annealing? Every backsmith and bladesmith I've ever met have been first class salt of the earth kind of people.

Danny
 

SteveG

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Glad its working out. How much is it costing for the annealing? Every backsmith and bladesmith I've ever met have been first class salt of the earth kind of people.

Danny


I only did some 'talk story' with the man, and arranged to drop the rods Friday. The price will be whatever it is. I may have him grind one of the rods down to smooth, as it is in the over sized, rough rope-look state, the other 2 rods are turned down to about 5/8" +/-.
 

SteveG

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Glad its working out. How much is it costing for the annealing? Every backsmith and bladesmith I've ever met have been first class salt of the earth kind of people.

Danny


I only did some 'talk story' with the man, and arranged to drop the rods Friday. The price will be whatever it is. I may have him grind one of the rods down to smooth, as it is in the over sized, rough rope-look state, the other 2 rods are turned down to about 5/8" +/-.

Danny, you had this blacksmith guy pegged, i.e. he is a "first class salt of the earth kind of people". I may be working with him on future projects. The annealing for three twelve inch rods will be about $20. He said that is mostly cost of electricity, since the 'labor' involves flipping the switch on the oven. and later flipping it off! :biggrin: I requested that he grind the one big, rusty, ugly rod down to relatively smooth round, and that will have its separate charge, mostly the cost of the coarse sand/grind belts.

As another important lesson learned, he thought some of my hard steel issues on the first pen I turned may have been instant hardening as I drilled, a process he described as self-quenching...the steel was not being drilled at a fast enough rate, heated up and then self-quenched, making it even harder (something you mentioned in post #3). That may be what caused the cobalt drill bits to dull and fail prematurely. This is a BIG lesson learned, as it may be beyond the capacity of the mini-lathe to drill at a fast (powerful) enough rate. I was using cutting fluid throughout. I may try the drill press next time, but will need a vise with a V-groove, and I do not want to abuse my PH pen vise for that. :wink:
 
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More4dan

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Glad its working out. How much is it costing for the annealing? Every backsmith and bladesmith I've ever met have been first class salt of the earth kind of people.

Danny


I only did some 'talk story' with the man, and arranged to drop the rods Friday. The price will be whatever it is. I may have him grind one of the rods down to smooth, as it is in the over sized, rough rope-look state, the other 2 rods are turned down to about 5/8" +/-.

Danny, you had this blacksmith guy pegged, i.e. he is a "first class salt of the earth kind of people". I may be working with him on future projects. The annealing for three twelve inch rods will be about $20. He said that is mostly cost of electricity, since the 'labor' involves flipping the switch on the oven. and later flipping it off! :biggrin: I requested that he grind the one big, rusty, ugly rod down to relatively smooth round, and that will have its separate charge, mostly the cost of the coarse sand/grind belts.


As another important lesson learned, he thought some of my hard steel issues on the first pen I turned may have been instant hardening as I drilled, a process he described as self-quenching...the steel was not being drilled at a fast enough rate, heated up and then self-quenched, making it even harder (something you mentioned in post #3). That may be what caused the cobalt drill bits to dull and fail prematurely. This is a BIG lesson learned, as it may be beyond the capacity of the mini-lathe to drill at a fast (powerful) enough rate. I was using cutting fluid throughout. I may try the drill press next time, but will need a vise with a V-groove, and I do not want to abuse my PH pen vise for that. :wink:

To self quench it would have to get above 1500 F. More likely one could work harden the material. You always want to be making chips. If not, drill with slower rpm and harder feed if possible. I've had that problem with Titanium. When it heats up it forms titanium oxide, the stuff they coat drill bits with to make them tougher. To get through the hard spot i had to drop to smaller bit and drill through increasing bits till I was able to get through it. HSS should hold it hardness and strength even if it gets red hot. The problems you had feels like hardened tool steel. I would be worried drilling with a press. I would be scared of drilling crooked and ruining the rod. Let us know if the annealing works. I got a drill doctor for my Birthday last week. I might hit you up if I have questions if you don't mind.

In getting ready to start on my damascus rod I modified my 3" chuck that originally would only pass a 5/8" rod. I turned the ID with a boring bar to 0.730". Loosely following a procedure i found online. Quick easy and has made my small lathe sooooo much better for drilling and handling larger OD stock. I've read 0.750" is the max bore so I chickened out at 0.730.

Danny
 
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PenPal

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Thanks, Steve! What an adventure. I was having trouble with drilling some rebar - the cobalt bits were just not cutting. Bought a $30 carbide tipped drill bit and the tip snapped off without even marking the steel. Had to get new cobalt bits to finish the drilling.

Your pen looks amazing.:)

Rebar comes in at least two versions. One for straight lengths and another for extreme bending.

I introduced pens made using Rebar on this forum many years ago, and yes I had chosen the higher grade of steel not knowing this.

Rebar is made using all tensile strengths a bit like lintels over windows etc whatever is in the pot methinks at the smelter..

Peter.
 

More4dan

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Started turning my stainless Damascus and HSS isn't cutting it. (parden the pun)

Carbide cutter is working on the OD. When I tried drilling I discovered the center of the rod is very hard. I can drill a small hole with carbide then my HSS 3/8" works. After I get a 3/8" hole I can use my carbide boring bar to get to final ID.

Wish me luck folks.

Danny
 

SteveG

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Started turning my stainless Damascus and HSS isn't cutting it. (parden the pun)

Carbide cutter is working on the OD. When I tried drilling I discovered the center of the rod is very hard. I can drill a small hole with carbide then my HSS 3/8" works. After I get a 3/8" hole I can use my carbide boring bar to get to final ID.

Wish me luck folks.

Danny

I hope it all works out well! :biggrin:

As I continue my learning while working with these metals (No stainless for me!), I have come to appreciate the value of proper annealing, along with the various ways work hardening can inadvertently be introduced when trying to turn and to drill. Some of the difficulties I encountered when drilling MAY have been caused by work hardening. :eek:

I will know more soon when I get back the Damascus rods from my local forge guy, who is doing the annealing.
 
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