Trying soft metals with Wood lathe--do I need to upgrade

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Fish30114

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I have been trying some turning of soft metals with my Nova DVR XP and have been successful with a few aluminum pens, but I was drilling some 5/8" copper rod tonight and my lathe just would not get the bar centered up--I manipulated my chuck all that I could but even when the bar was pretty damn true in the chuck, the drill bit in my Jacobs chuck in the tailstock would not center the drill bit--I checked the center on my tailstock and the headstock and it was dead on with two pointed dead centers--my Jacobs chuck is a high quality/high precision model with measured low runout--I don't know what is causing the off center bit--but that leads me to the question at hand, if I want to make good quality metal body pens, even with softer metals, should I be able to do it with my current lathe, or do I need to step up to a metal lathe. As of now there is now way I could drill a tip hole in a piece of stock for the refill to protrude through. I think I will be able to turn this copper bar--but it is drilled a good bit off center as of now--but I don't know if I should even attempt brass with my current rig.

Any advice/input is appreciated.

Thanks--Don
 
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Charlie_W

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Don, as for starting a drill bit in the metal rod, use a center/starter bit first. These are short stubby bits which have a point and then a 60 degree bevel. This leaves a pocket for your longer more flexible bit to start.

As for holding the blank, if round, a collet chuck works great. I believe a metal lathe will use a 3jaw chuck for centering and gripping round stock.

Good luck!
 

Fish30114

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Thanks for the quick feedback Charlie, I did start with a center bit--so I'm confounded by the off centerness--is that a word??
It has been that way regardless of if it's a round wooden dowel or precision bar stock in aluminum.....interesting side note--if I chuck up a square pen blank in the same chuck and jaws, it drills dead center no issues...
 
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bmachin

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What kind of chuck are you using to hold the work? Are the jaws somehow misaligned so that the work is not parallel to the lathe bed? Have you measured the runout on your work holding chuck?

As far as it being off center, it actually has a center. As long as you don't remove it from the chuck it is going to turn around that center assuming that the chuck is mounted straight on the spindle.

This Old Tony has a really good video about this on Youtube here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K67bZQSETiE&t=883s

All that said, I would check out the runout on both my Jacobs chuck and my work holding chuck in the headstock. Something is amiss here.

One further comment; when it come to drilling copper and brass you should consider making some modifications to the bits you use. Both of those metals can be really grabby.

Bill
 

magpens

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Don ....

Don't ask me why, but copper is really tricky to turn and drill ... stay away from it until you get expert advice, which I am not. . Copper seems to "grab" for me.

You should not have a problem with brass if you are careful and take light cuts, although brass can "grab" if you don't have the right shape and orientation of cutting tools.

Upgrading to a metal lathe won't be much of a help with these problems ... I have a mini metal lathe and use it all the time for pens ... I can do aluminum, brass, and small steel parts but I cannot turn copper.
 

Fish30114

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Guys thanks for the input--I am using an Easy Chuck which I love and it has proven to be very true in every way I can manage to measure it--I do agree though-something must be amiss-I am using the small pen jaws and grabbing the rods in the middle of the jaws, when I chuck up a square pen blank I 'grab' it by the corners mounted in between the jaw gaps of the chuck. I am trying to learn which drill bits I should use for drilling metals--I've got good bits-Norseman, but I don't know if they are what I should be using--should I go to carbide or cobalt???

Still trying to figure things---
 

bmachin

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I'm with Mal on this. I'd be inclined to ditch the copper for right now just because of the machining difficulties and giving brass or aluminum a try.

That said, depending how far "off center" your blank is you may not have any sort of problem getting what you need out of your blank.

Bill
 

More4dan

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I drill really hard materials on a mini metal lathe but copper and bronze can be a problem. It requires a different and less aggressive cutting angle on your drill bits. Also use cutting fluid. The head and tail stock might be aligned but doesn't mean they point in the same direction. They need to align and be inline with each other. When I drill through a metal rod I also clamp my material very close to the end I'm drilling with the rest extending through the chuck. Clamping on the other end with material out away from the chuck will be difficult for any chuck to hold still with the forces to drill metal vs wood or acrylic.

What may help is to drill a small diameter bit first and move up in steps. Also look for material grades that are classified as free matching. Thy have additives to make them easier to drill and turn reducing their "stickiness".


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More4dan

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Online metals is a good source of information and to buy stock for turning. Good descriptions of different metal grades to learn what is better for turning. For instance some bronze is stronger than steel and 303 Stainless steel is Free machining and turns easier than 304 or 316 SS. www.onlinemetals.com

The also have HDHP and Nylon rods that make great bushings for applying CA.


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Woodster Will

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I have centre drills because I need them but I've found a spotting drill to be more accurate on the lathe for starting holes. They aren't expensive.
 

Fish30114

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Online metals is a good source of information and to buy stock for turning. Good descriptions of different metal grades to learn what is better for turning. For instance some bronze is stronger than steel and 303 Stainless steel is Free machining and turns easier than 304 or 316 SS. Online Metal Store | Small Quantity Metal Orders | Metal Cutting, Sales & Shipping | Buy Steel, Aluminum, Copper, Brass, Stainless | Metal Product Guides at OnlineMetals.com

The also have HDHP and Nylon rods that make great bushings for applying CA.


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Dan, thanks for that input--I never thought about my headstock and tailstock possibly being meeting point to point but not aligned...
At any rate I'll keep working on it, and try to figure things out--I buy my drill bits from DBA-Drill Bits of America, and the principal there is great about knowing which kind of bits to use on what materials, so I'll check with him about which bits I should be using.
 

TurtleTom

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What no one seems to talk about is learning all the settings on your bit sharpener. You can make split points which drill to center better. You can reduce the pitch for harder to manage materials like copper. I use the 500 Drill Doctor so I don't have the stand off adjustment to reduce grinding amounts so I just use a shim for that.
 

Fish30114

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Turtle Tom, it seems that the hole in the stock is SLIGHTLY oversized so it is certainlu possible that I have a misalignment--how would one go about figuring this out, and more importantly, how would one go about correcting this.

Woodster Willie, I am not beyond looking for and buying some spotting drills, so I appreciate that input.

Thanks folks--Don
 

TurtleTom

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bit alignment

Turtle Tom, it seems that the hole in the stock is SLIGHTLY oversized so it is certainlu possible that I have a misalignment--how would one go about figuring this out, and more importantly, how would one go about correcting this.

Woodster Willie, I am not beyond looking for and buying some spotting drills, so I appreciate that input.

I think you said it worked fine in square stock, so check that.``
 

TurtleTom

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I've frequently use the tool rest to check centering in the chuck, In the machine shop you'd use an indicator to find the high and low spots and would tell you quickly whether your chuck is not turning true. The tool rest up close and use a pencil on wood also will show the high spot. The length of line will show how bad. Longer the line the better it is.
 

thewishman

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I've frequently use the tool rest to check centering in the chuck, In the machine shop you'd use an indicator to find the high and low spots and would tell you quickly whether your chuck is not turning true. The tool rest up close and use a pencil on wood also will show the high spot. The length of line will show how bad. Longer the line the better it is.

That is such a good idea!
 

More4dan

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I've been thinking about how you might check alignment on a wood lathe. On a metal lathe I used a test indicator (+-15/10,000") and make sure the head is parallel with the bed and then make sure the tail stock is also parallel with the bed. Then I adjust the tail to align with the head. Now everything is inline and aligned. I shimmed the headstock and tail stock to get them inline and adjusted the tail stock to align them.

You don't have these options on the wood lathe. You could try this to check for inline and aligned. Just not sure what you can do about what you find.

Put a center in the head stock and on in the tail stock. Lightly pinch a small metal rule between the 2 centers. The rule will exaggerate the offset, check front to back and up and down. I would check with the quill all the way in and all the way out and see if the alignment changes. IF it changes, this would indicate the two ends aren't inline. You could try different ways of pushing/twisting the tail stock when clamping it to get better and more consistent results. The problem with a wood lathe is it only check for alignment/inline at that one place on the lathe bed. A different spot might have a different issue.

You can also set up a dial indicator to make sure your material is properly centered when you chuck it up. Turn the chuck by hand while indicating on the OD of your metal rod at the right end. bump it on the high spot while tightening it so the rod ends up turning without a "wobble". I try to get it within 1-3 thousandths.
 

bmachin

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I just went back to the beginning of the thread where you said that you have no problems with a square pen blank. Is there any possibility that the end that you are trying to drill is somewhat concave or otherwise out of square which would tend to make the drill (even a center drill) walk a little?

I've got some other ideas but I'd like to take care of this one first.

Bill
 

TurtleTom

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I just went back to the beginning of the thread where you said that you have no problems with a square pen blank. Is there any possibility that the end that you are trying to drill is somewhat concave or otherwise out of square which would tend to make the drill (even a center drill) walk a little?

I've got some other ideas but I'd like to take care of this one first.

Bill

Good idea, just how square is square?
 

Fish30114

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Well guys, I've checked it every way since sliced bread. I put two dead centers in the headstock and tailstock and they meet dead on when I slide the tailstock up to the headstock, and also when I crank the tailstock quill out throughout it's entire range the points are still meeting the same. On the stock I'm using it is pretty true on the end, I've used the end that it came with which with a square from Woodpeckers was very square and on the ends where I cut the stock, I put the stock in a v-block and then sanded it smooth on my disc sander, and it measured square as can be. When I chuck it up the piece does not run square/true--it's like the round stock is bent-but I can't tell that with a ruler/square when holding it against the stock, but when I turn the chuck I can visually see a high and low point--so even a center drill is not hitting the center of the piece???? This is very frustrating, there is no way I could drill a 2.5 mm hole for a refill to protrude through that would be centered--so there is no way I could build an entire pen--this is driving me crazy, because whether I use bushings to TBC pens, or a mandrel they both check out with a dial indicator to be extremely true and my turnings are totally symmetrical....
This round metal stock is driving me crazy.
 
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bmachin

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Sorry if I was a little unclear when I said out of square. What I meant was: is the end of the workpiece not perpendicular to the axis of the lathe. I also meant to say convex rather than concave. either of those conditions could cause a drill to walk. I agree that wood or plastic is more forgiving which is why I always make my end surfaces a little bit concave when I'm working with metals on the wood lathe.

From the original statement of the problem, it sounds like you marked a center on you workpiece, chucked it up, and found out that you drill wouldn't hit the center mark. If that's a fair statement, then the simplest explanation and one that is easy to check is that the stock or the drill is bent.

Take the bar out of the chuck and roll it on a smooth surface. I should roll smoothly. If not, you may be able to straighten it, or you can put it between centers and turn it straight.

I think that this is the simplest explanation, but I've got a million of 'em. Just want to try and keep them in some sort of logical order without getting too deep into the weeds with jigs and dial indicators (at least not yet).

Bill
 

Fish30114

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Sorry if I was a little unclear when I said out of square. What I meant was: is the end of the workpiece not perpendicular to the axis of the lathe. I also meant to say convex rather than concave. either of those conditions could cause a drill to walk. I agree that wood or plastic is more forgiving which is why I always make my end surfaces a little bit concave when I'm working with metals on the wood lathe.

From the original statement of the problem, it sounds like you marked a center on you workpiece, chucked it up, and found out that you drill wouldn't hit the center mark. If that's a fair statement, then the simplest explanation and one that is easy to check is that the stock or the drill is bent.

Take the bar out of the chuck and roll it on a smooth surface. I should roll smoothly. If not, you may be able to straighten it, or you can put it between centers and turn it straight.



I think that this is the simplest explanation, but I've got a million of 'em. Just want to try and keep them in some sort of logical order without getting too deep into the weeds with jigs and dial indicators (at least not yet).

Bill

Thanks Bill, This sounds to smart brother--I will do that

And Gary, I will investigate my jaws as I'm not sure on their involvement--or lack thereof....
 

Fish30114

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Guy, I don't know how else to check my jaws than to chuck up a known round object in them and see if that runs true against my tool holder mounted dial indicator--which I got from Rick Herrell and so I did that and chucked up a precision stainless 1/2 drill blank into the chuck and it ran very true, and a drill in the Jacobs chuck hit the marked center dead on--so I am going to figure that the rod stock I'm trying to turn has various odd bends in it because several pieces I cut from it--of pretty short-like 2.25" are what aren't running true--I also got a new piece I cut have the drill bit-center drill-hit very close to the marked center, so I used a new drill bit I got from Drill Bits America, and it drilled the copper very effectively--so maybe I've got the issue kinda cornered.

I appreciate everyone's input and I still am noodling about buying a metal lathe--I would really like to be able to build some totally metal pens, possibly even some out of titanium, but for sure be able to drill a nib hole in a piece of copper, brass & aluminum.

Thanks again--Don
 

Bob Roehrig

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Soft Metals

I cast and turn a lot of Pewter on my wood lathe. Turns beautiful with a gorgous finish. What's also great is you can recyle all the chips back into the melting pot.
 

duncsuss

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Well guys, I've checked it every way since sliced bread. I put two dead centers in the headstock and tailstock and they meet dead on when I slide the tailstock up to the headstock, and also when I crank the tailstock quill out throughout it's entire range the points are still meeting the same.

It's a lot easier to get perfect head & tailstock alignment using the Nova Acruline -- and at less than $20 it's a cheap tool.

Simple to use: loosen the headstock clamping screw till you can rotate the headstock, loosen the 4 hex bolts on the plate under the tailstock. Extend the quill and tighten the locking screw. Slip one end of the Acruline into the headstock taper, slide the tailstock onto the other end, and push until it's tight. Lock down the headstock, lock down the hex bolts under the tailstock. Clamp the tailstock to the lathe bed, then retract the quill pulling it off the Acruline. Tap it out of the headstock with the knock-out bar.

I do this 4 or 5 minute exercise before starting any project that requires accurate drilling just in I knocked it out of alignment turning a bowl or such.
 

Fish30114

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Duncuss, I have the Accruline, and I have found a way that it works a charm, the issue with the approach you outlined, is that if you have all 4 bolts (hex head machine screws) loosened, there is nothing holding the adjustment you made to the tailstock whilst you slide it off the rails and tighten those bolts back up. I have found it is key to just loosen SLIGHTLY the screws that would be in the orientation that you want to move the tailstock in--i.e. if you need to move the tailstock up and to the left, then you would loosen, SLIGHTLY, the bolts at the front left and the the right rear.

This has worked a charm on my NOVA DVR XP
 

duncsuss

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This has worked a charm on my NOVA DVR XP

Excellent method for lathes that are bench-mounted; my 1624-44 is on legs, so I'm able to reach underneath and tighten those hex-head bolts while the tailstock is still attached to the headstock through the Acruline.
 

randyrls

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Don't ask me why, but copper is really tricky to turn and drill ... stay away from it until you get expert advice, which I am not. . Copper seems to "grab" for me.

You should not have a problem with brass if you are careful and take light cuts, although brass can "grab" if you don't have the right shape and orientation of cutting tools.


To join the thread; Copper, bronze, and brass work better with a cutting tool (including drill bits).... Oh boy how to explain this?? :confused::confused:

The cutting tool should be a scrape cut, not a shearing cut. On drill bits you can put a flat on very edge of the cutting flutes. The flat should be parallel to axis of the drill bit. Take a look at this video. This works with copper too.
 
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