Massive Damascus Steel vs 7" X 16" lathe

[SteveG]

I am the proud (I think) owner of a massive 12" chunk of Damascus Steel just received from Roy in his big sell off last week. This rod looks like a twisted rope, is almost 1.25" diameter, and seems to not want to be turned very well on my rather small 7 X 16 lathe using a HSS cutting tool. So far, I have only turned some softer metals on this lathe, and in general, have fairly limited experience using a metal lathe. My question to those of you with more metal working experience: do you think I will be able to turn this material on my small lathe? If so, are there any suggestions for the proper tooling/techniques?

So far, I drilled a center drill hole on each end, and mounted the rod between centers, driven by a lathe dog, about 800 RPM. Result: lots of "shakin' goin' on", and the HSS tool was worn down severely after not much progress.

I am obviously in over my head. Any suggestions...or should I just run away from home. (That never worked out very well when I was a kid! )

If I am eventually able to produce pens from this material, there will be a loss of most of the steel being turned away getting it down to a typical pen diameter. Does anyone know if it would be feasible to have the rod cut down the length, then machined into two rods, each around .5" diameter. My guess on that is (if accomplished), it will result in a strange pattern showing on the surface of the resultant rods). Go ahead, tell me I am crazy. I will just run away! :tongue:

 

[magpens]

What is the diameter again ????

 

[SteveG]

Like I said...1.25'

Now, back to reality (my opening post corrected): diameter is 1.25"

Thanks Mal... one little " ' " missing makes a big difference!

 

[Curly]

I looked at my MillTurn Calc app and it said alloy steel should be cut at about 100 to 120 feet per minute. Going to the lathe part of the app I played with the rpm and diameter, and you should be turning 300 rpm if using high speed steel cutters. You will still need to sharpen often at least until you get below the "skin" and maybe throughout the process. The 2 different steels act a little like interrupted cuts and nock the edges off your cutter. Damascus steel is more difficult to machine especially with a mini lathe. You should also try to lubricate the cutter with a cutting oil. Even bacon grease will help but might bring the dog around sniffing the air.

 

[bmachin]

Annealing might help.

Bill

 

[mredburn]

Is the HSS cutter simply Hss or does it have a any cobalt in it. THere are HSS cutters rated with 5,8,10 % Cobalt added which will help slow down the dulling of your cutter but wont stop it. I cut a bunch of damascus rods down from squarish to round and it was an extremely not fun chore.

 

[SteveG]

Curly: "I looked at my MillTurn Calc app and it said alloy steel should be cut at about 100 to 120 feet per minute. Going to the lathe part of the app I played with the rpm and diameter, and you should be turning 300 rpm if using high speed steel cutters. You will still need to sharpen often at least until you get below the "skin" and maybe throughout the process. The 2 different steels act a little like interrupted cuts and nock the edges off your cutter. Damascus steel is more difficult to machine especially with a mini lathe..."

Thanks Peter. It is helpful to get in the ball park for turning parameters to use. This is looking like a "No Fun" phase of pen making. Thank You.


mredburn: Is the HSS cutter simply Hss or does it have a any cobalt in it. THere are HSS cutters rated with 5,8,10 % Cobalt added which will help slow down the dulling of your cutter but wont stop it. I cut a bunch of damascus rods down from squarish to round and it was an extremely not fun chore.

Good info there Mike. Were you doing this work on a small lathe? I am wondering about the capabilities of my 7 X 16 lathe for this task. I only have some generic HSS cutters at this point. I may invest in some of the type you describe. And yes...so far:No Fun! Thank You.

 

[SteveG]

I did a second look at the prospect of splitting the rod in half lengthwise to get twice the yield of pen blank stock. Once the surface "spiral rope" texture is turned down to a smooth rod, the diameter will likely be about 0.95" at best...more like 0.9". Dividing that in half and accounting for the kerf yields significantly less than a half inch remaining, so that whole idea is out. I realize that there will just be a lot of swarf produced to yield pen turning stock of the diameter that I want.

 

[Curly]

Since it is a big piece of metal and you want to show it off I would use it on full size pens like the Gent, Majestic, Emperor etc. Less metal to machine away but bigger holes to drill. It will be heavy but it is more for show than practical use.

 

[triw51]

"I did a second look at the prospect of splitting the rod in half lengthwise to get twice the yield of pen blank stock. Once the surface "spiral rope" texture is turned down to a smooth rod, the diameter will likely be about 0.95" at best...more like 0.9". Dividing that in half and accounting for the kerf yields significantly less than a half inch remaining, so that whole idea is out. I realize that there will just be a lot of swarf produced to yield pen turning stock of the diameter that I want."

You could heat it up and hammer it longer and smaller

 

[SteveG]

triw51:You could heat it up and hammer it longer and smaller

Perhaps YOU could. If my circumstances were different, I might have considered that. In reality, manual forging activity is beyond my ability due to a ruined spine, that allows me to do very little of a physical nature, and some seriously damaged nerves in the area from my knees down, which make it easy to fall down, hard to stand. :bulgy-eyes:

I am thinking that I may farm this one out to a machine shop to get the rod close to my finish size, and then take it from there. I have a second rod from Roy of a different pattern, that is already nicely turned to about 5/8" diameter. I will work with that to see if I can learn to turn Damascus on my small lathe. With that in mind, I am still welcoming suggestions and tips that will enhance my Damascus experience, and I very much appreciate the suggestions so far. Thanks everybody!

 

[frank123]

Go with a very sharp 10% Cobalt bit, keep lubricated, don't turn at too high a speed. You could also use carbide, but not carbide inserts since they are usually ground for heavy aggressive cutting pressures (use C5 or C6 brazed bits and grind your own). With the small lathe make lighter cuts than you would on softer metals.

That's how I machine harder alloy steels, YMMV. Depending on what metals were used to make the Damascus this can be a challenge.

I'd recommend a sheer ground bit for the final diameter passes, it leaves a very good surface that will require much less finishing work and you can usually get tenth of a thousandth type of precision with one after you get some experience using it.

BTW, wear a good dust mask when sharpening the cobalt cutter and clean the grinding dust up, cobalt is not good to inhale.

 

[More4dan]

You might want to check the hardness and make sure it has been annealed. Take. File and see if it bites or skates off the surface. If it skates you need to have it annealed, heated to about 1600F and very slowly cooled.

Just to add excitement to my life a purchased the 3/4" Stainless Steel Damascus rod. And I'm planning to turn on a 7 x 10 mini lathe.

You need to use cutting fluid and the correct geometry on your bit. Also sand off any mill scale or rust. Get back to bright metal before machining. With a large powerful lathe you can cut deep enough to get past the scale. Not going to happen on a mini.

Good luck, I'm not far behind you on the adventure.

Danny

 

[More4dan]

DUDE! I just reread your post. You have the chain damascus! Your going to have to grind past all that scale to shinny metal before turning. Usually takes a 0.050 depth of cut to get below the surface of the scale to machine and that's on smooth rod. Make friends with an angle grinder.

 

[SteveG]

DUDE! I just reread your post. You have the chain damascus! Your going to have to grind past all that scale to shinny metal before turning. Usually takes a 0.050 depth of cut to get below the surface of the scale to machine and that's on smooth rod. Make friends with an angle grinder.

Hey Danny,you got me all excited! Make me feel like I am one of the privileged class!:biggrin:

Before, I thought I was in over my head. Now I KNOW I am in murky, deep waters with heavy weights tied to my ankles. I am sure it is all fun in the end, just cannot see that far down the road right now. Thanks for the inputs, it kind of adds purpose to my beating my head against the wall. I do happen to have an angle grinder. I guess I betterl go dust it off. :biggrin:

 

[More4dan]

DUDE! I just reread your post. You have the chain damascus! Your going to have to grind past all that scale to shinny metal before turning. Usually takes a 0.050 depth of cut to get below the surface of the scale to machine and that's on smooth rod. Make friends with an angle grinder.

Hey Danny,you got me all excited! Make me feel like I am one of the privileged class!:biggrin:

Before, I thought I was in over my head. Now I KNOW I am in murky, deep waters with heavy weights tied to my ankles. I am sure it is all fun in the end, just cannot see that far down the road right now. Thanks for the inputs, it kind of adds purpose to my beating my head against the wall. I do happen to have an angle grinder. I guess I betterl go dust it off. :biggrin:

Steve the SS damascus I got is made of 304 and AEBL. The 304 work hardens under load (drilling) and the AEBL is an air hardening steel it hardens so fast. Gotta keep it cool.

Sorry I was so blunt but didn't want you tearing up more bits. Usually carbide is good for hard material but won't take the impacts from the upset ID and tends to chatter badly with scale.

I will wish you luck if you do the same for me. If you need advice on acid etching damascus send me a note. I use it for knives i make. Very cool stuff.

In the first and last pic the damascus bolsters were heat colored instead of etching. They can do amazing patterns in the flat bars.

Danny

 

[SteveG]

Danny, I like blunt! And I do wish you well in your efforts. This really helps me to know what I am getting into. I am just now starting some kitless efforts, and want to include Damascus steel in with that.

Your knives are amazing, and have me drooling to see what is hiding in the biker chain rod. The pattern and coloration on the bolster up against the scales in the third photo are X-tremely cool!

Some are ridiculed for bringing a knife to a gun fight, and I may well be down that road, bringing a mini lathe to a biker-chain Damascus fight! I will get the right cutting tooling, and get going with the grinder. We shall see where it all ends up. I am bull-headed enough to see it through, wherever it leads! You pointers are much appreciated!

 

[More4dan]

The examples I showed with my knives will be very different than the rod Damascus. Patterns have to be simpler for a round billet. Chain Damascus is usually bolder and blockier which should look real cool in the round. And it obviously has been twisted. I look forward to seeing what lies beneath.

The last one is by Devin Thomas a true master of his craft.

Danny

 

[mjrbuzz]

may try an angle grinder while on the lathe with an agressive flap disk, wear plenty of protection and do outside if possible

 

[TBCbushings]

I can turn it for you with no problems...

 

[KBs Pensnmore]

may try an angle grinder while on the lathe with an agressive flap disk, wear plenty of protection and do outside if possible

If you end up going this way I suggest that you mask up any machined areas and around the saddle, to prevent the ingress of metal dust which would ruin the lathe bed and other areas.
Kryn

 

[Paul in OKC]

"I did a second look at the prospect of splitting the rod in half lengthwise to get twice the yield of pen blank stock. Once the surface "spiral rope" texture is turned down to a smooth rod, the diameter will likely be about 0.95" at best...more like 0.9". Dividing that in half and accounting for the kerf yields significantly less than a half inch remaining, so that whole idea is out. I realize that there will just be a lot of swarf produced to yield pen turning stock of the diameter that I want."

You could heat it up and hammer it longer and smaller

Yes, it will be in the 7/8" diameter range. Very hard stuff. DAMHIKT I have rarely been baffled with turning any kind of steel in the past, but this stuff..........You will need to go slowly.

 

[duncsuss]

I have no metalworking experience beyond repurposing a couple of old files into woodturning scrapers, so this is a question from a complete novice:

Could you anneal the rod to reduce the hardness of the steel?

(If you're making pens out of it, there's no real advantage to having it capable of holding a sharp edge or being able to support a railway bridge.)

 

[Rockytime]

I would use carbide inserts.

 

[SteveG]

I realize that I will just be beating up my diminutive lathe trying to turn this rod, and still get no where. I have been able to make arrangements with Brian (Nikitas) to turn it down to a workable, cylindrical profile. I had gotten another rod from Roy, one labeled "Lightning", that had been turned and partially etched to show the Damascus pattern. This I was able to do a test turning without difficulty using a HSS cutter. I am going to follow suggestions here and get some HSS cutters with Cobalt content, just to make it go well! This will soon be "Mo' Fun!" :biggrin::biggrin:

Sincere thanks to all who have helped to partially erase my lack of knowledge and experience in this metal turning, pen making pursuit!

 

[Skie_M]

You would be much better off going with carbide cutters, as damascus steel is made of alternating layers of very hard and softer steels.


The use of the grinding wheel spinning against the lathe blank while using a high strength cutting/grinding wheel ... such as aluminum oxide ... would produce results. You will, however, also get a big mess.

Splitting the blank would provide an interesting pattern from the inside, but, as you said, that idea is out as the core of the blank is too small to provide you with turnable stock when finished ... Unless you know what you are doing, I wouldn't attempt to draw out that blank by heating and hammering.

Other ideas .... turn the lathe on and have it spinning, and SAND it down to a workable surface so that your tools wont be skipping so much and catching....

Annealing the steel to make it softer and easier to work is a viable option as well, IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING ... Annealing would require you to heat the blank up to non-magnetic and then allowing it to air-cool for a few hours (most just leave it overnight in the ashes of the forge fire to cool even slower). This retards the formation of martensite in the steel and reduces the grain pattern particles to smaller sizes, also relieving stresses formed in the steel due to the forming process and allows the steel to remain strong when next hardened. Damascus steel, being formed of a hardenable steel sandwiched between layers of non-hardening steel, will form alternating patterns of darker and lighter bands between each layer that show up quiet well after etching or hand polishing.


YOU WILL NOT SEE THE DAMASCUS PATTERN IF YOU SIMPLY SAND AND POLISH ON THE LATHE. The machining process works so fast that the patterning will be blurred and will not show up well unless you etch or blue/black the surface and do a final polish to reveal the actual metal patterning. When you are done on the lathe, the result should be a smoothly polished glassy surface that looks like polished silver ... then you etch or blue it and polish it by hand.

 

[SteveG]

Thanks Skie M for you additional insights. I am looking at all this work that will ensue as grand learning experiences. I ordered some Ferric Chloride Powder from ebay, which may yield the desired etching. Hope I do not blow anything up!

Eventually there will be some Damascus pens here, I hope! It looks promising with all the helpful comments I have been getting. Thanks guys.

 

[More4dan]

Your local radio shack will have ferric chloride etchent. It's used to make homemade circuit boards. Cost about $15. I dilute 4:1 with distilled water. For best results sand to 400-600 grit and do not buff or polish. Also need to be grease/oil free. Clean with acetone and be careful or to leave finger prints. I soak for 5 min and check. Add more time to get the depth you like. When done rinse in water. Neutralize the acid, I use windex. Dip in acetone to remove moister. DONT RUB IT!!! Let it sit overnight for the black oxide to stabilize. Light polishing of the surface will help with the contrast. Coat with a good wax to help with rusting. For areas you don't want etched (threads) cover with fingernail polish prior to the acid. Test a cutoff piece first.

Danny