The cost of being Cheap on tools

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
So I've started my adventure turning Stainless Steel Damascus and similar to a previous post, the rod I have is too hard for HSS bits. However, the materials in the SS Damascus can't be annealed like their carbon steel cousins. The method for annealing the 304 SS will harden the other metal, AEB-L. So the maker annealed the AEB-L, taking 2 days, leaving the work hardened 304, well, hard. The recommendation was to use carbide bits and tooling. Being the impatient and hard headed person I am, I decided to cut corners and use what I had and what I could purchase from Home Depot for drill bits. I had small bits made for drilling glass and ceramic that has a carbide tip brazed to carbon steel. Those worked quite well actually, they just didn't last too long. I then moved up to carbide tipped masonry bits from Home Depot. Bad move. The carbide tips aren't centered on the bit creating lots of noise and vibrations and an oversized hole. They also wore out quickly. Then I tried using a boring bar with a carbide tip to "drill" through the last little bit and broke the tip off it. Those only come in a set, so replacement won't be easy or cheap.

Lastly I took a long hard look at what I was doing, recognized my folly, and called a time out. Amazon Prime to the rescue. I bought 2, just in case, tungsten carbide end mills at about 1/2 the price of carbide drill bits and they arrived in a day. Drilling was like a good sharp bit in mild steel. It made quick work of what had previously taken hours with no damage to the tool. The end mill cost less than the 6 bits I wore out and it still lives for more abuse.

I had the carbide cutter but lost 1/3 of an insert facing the end after cutting with a band saw. The carbide doesn't like impact. Next time I will sand it square before machining. Most of that expensive Damascus ends up as chips to be thrown away. Now its off to heat treat so the material will etch correctly and be more corrosion resistant. Praying it doesn't warp.

Learn from my sorrows, get the right tools for the job, It will be cheaper in the long run.

Danny the former tight wad.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0776.jpg
    IMG_0776.jpg
    316.7 KB · Views: 391
  • IMG_0778.jpg
    IMG_0778.jpg
    267.1 KB · Views: 347
  • IMG_0779.jpg
    IMG_0779.jpg
    256.9 KB · Views: 314
  • IMG_0780.jpg
    IMG_0780.jpg
    243.3 KB · Views: 350
Last edited:
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

Rockytime

Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
1,074
Location
Arvada, CO 80003
I'm wondering why you use 304. I never machined anything but 303 if I was using SS so only know 304 is more difficult. Is there a reason you are using 304? Will the pen look different?
 

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
I'm wondering why you use 304. I never machined anything but 303 if I was using SS so only know 304 is more difficult. Is there a reason you are using 304? Will the pen look different?

Carbon steel is not stainless steel ... it will rust and discolor over time.

I don't know the difference between 303 and 304, but it's possible that the metal alloy will react differently to the etch or possibly weld at different temperatures .... maybe outside the temp range for welding the other metal in the damascus steel, which would make it impossible to be made.
 

SteveG

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,985
Location
Eugene, Oregon 97404
MAGIC!! :eek::rolleyes:

Turned an end mill into a 'drill' mill, and you were off to the races. Great move!:)

A question comes to mind, on the issue of:
Now its off to heat treat so the material will etch correctly and be more corrosion resistant. Praying it doesn't warp.


I have some carbon or ?? steel rods soon to come back from the annealing process, and have read that, as you mentioned, the etching may not go well. So when I work these rods into pens, I will try the etching, to see how that goes, with the anticipation that it would look better if hardened.

You are apparently praying for no warpage. Does anyone have good experience with this, to address the issue. Can we expect some warpping to occur. These will be, at that point, short (2"~3"), and drilled hollow.

It would be a shame to get almost done, and then end up with warped barrels! :mad:
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
MAGIC!! :eek::rolleyes:

Turned an end mill into a 'drill' mill, and you were off to the races. Great move!:)

A question comes to mind, on the issue of:
Now its off to heat treat so the material will etch correctly and be more corrosion resistant. Praying it doesn't warp.


I have some carbon or ?? steel rods soon to come back from the annealing process, and have read that, as you mentioned, the etching may not go well. So when I work these rods into pens, I will try the etching, to see how that goes, with the anticipation that it would look better if hardened.

You are apparently praying for no warpage. Does anyone have good experience with this, to address the issue. Can we expect some warpping to occur. These will be, at that point, short (2"~3"), and drilled hollow.

It would be a shame to get almost done, and then end up with warped barrels! :mad:


Here is an example of etched Damascus carbon steel. The blade was heat treated and the bolster were not. Both etched but the darker black oxides formed on the heat treated steel blade. The bolsters are more grey on grey.

I have had blades warp when quenching. I have no idea how a tube might behave. I'm torn between a high contrast pattern or the chance of messing up my blanks. Blades I know how to straighten. Tubes would be impossible. I'll let you know how it goes.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    374.3 KB · Views: 300

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
The best way to get around the warping issue is .... to harden and heat treat your blank before shaping it.

Unfortunately, this means that the blank will be EXTREMELY difficult to drill and shape without expensive tools. If you end up with warped damascus blanks, I think your only option may be to work them in a hardened state rather than annealed, or leave them unhardened.

I read in another post that even annealed damascus is quite a bit harder than most any other pen blank material, and should hold up extremely well for many years.
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
I'm wondering why you use 304. I never machined anything but 303 if I was using SS so only know 304 is more difficult. Is there a reason you are using 304? Will the pen look different?

Carbon steel is not stainless steel ... it will rust and discolor over time.

I don't know the difference between 303 and 304, but it's possible that the metal alloy will react differently to the etch or possibly weld at different temperatures .... maybe outside the temp range for welding the other metal in the damascus steel, which would make it impossible to be made.

I'm sure 304 was chosen for it's welding and forging properties. Most of this Damascus is made in flat plates for knife makers that plan to forge and grind it to shape. I'm also guessing that any benefit to free machining materials is nullified in the welding and forging of the two metals. I know carbon migrates between the metals as well as other elements in the alloys.

Another reason for heat treating the Stainless Steel is that the material is more resistant to rusting after heat treat than before. How much? I haven't a clue for AEB-L but for 440C it can be a big difference.
 

SteveG

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,985
Location
Eugene, Oregon 97404
The best way to get around the warping issue is .... to harden and heat treat your blank before shaping it.

Unfortunately, this means that the blank will be EXTREMELY difficult to drill and shape without expensive tools. If you end up with warped damascus blanks, I think your only option may be to work them in a hardened state rather than annealed, or leave them unhardened.

I read in another post that even annealed damascus is quite a bit harder than most any other pen blank material, and should hold up extremely well for many years.

I am not worried about using an unturned warped blank, nor about an annealed finished pen needing to be heat treated to stand up to eventual usage. (annealed steel should be plenty hard.) The issue is that (as I understand it, and as seen in the difference of the blade and bolster Dan posted), annealed material does not show as good of a contrast when etched. I will need to decide (for finished pen parts), to harden or to leave annealed. In my post #4 I asked if anyone has had experience, and can predict if how much warpage to expect. I might end up doing much of the drilling and turning of the profile while in an annealed state, then harden the piece, then turn and drill to finish specs, hopefully cleaning up any warpage that happened. Finally, etch the hardened steel.

This is all new territory for me, having turned only one Damascus steel pen. Knowledgable inputs and discussion are always appreciated!
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
Steve I'm comptinplating testing the etch before taking a chance on heat treating. Most warping is of thin flat blades with asymmetrical geometry. All the things a tube isn't. If I heat treat I will let you know the result. I should know in a week or so.

Danny
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
The best way to get around the warping issue is .... to harden and heat treat your blank before shaping it.

Unfortunately, this means that the blank will be EXTREMELY difficult to drill and shape without expensive tools. If you end up with warped damascus blanks, I think your only option may be to work them in a hardened state rather than annealed, or leave them unhardened.

I read in another post that even annealed damascus is quite a bit harder than most any other pen blank material, and should hold up extremely well for many years.

I am not worried about using an unturned warped blank, nor about an annealed finished pen needing to be heat treated to stand up to eventual usage. (annealed steel should be plenty hard.) The issue is that (as I understand it, and as seen in the difference of the blade and bolster Dan posted), annealed material does not show as good of a contrast when etched. I will need to decide (for finished pen parts), to harden or to leave annealed. In my post #4 I asked if anyone has had experience, and can predict if how much warpage to expect. I might end up doing much of the drilling and turning of the profile while in an annealed state, then harden the piece, then turn and drill to finish specs, hopefully cleaning up any warpage that happened. Finally, etch the hardened steel.

This is all new territory for me, having turned only one Damascus steel pen. Knowledgable inputs and discussion are always appreciated!

Steve I do have some O1 Tool steel rod I could drill and turn to size and heat treat then test for warping without chancing the Damascus. It wouldn't guarantee results but may temper my fear. I could also test my ability to drill and turn once hardened.
 

SteveG

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,985
Location
Eugene, Oregon 97404
...Steve I do have some O1 Tool steel rod I could drill and turn to size and heat treat then test for warping without chancing the Damascus. It wouldn't guarantee results but may temper my fear. I could also test my ability to drill and turn once hardened.

That sounds like a good approach, and may well avoid damaging your work and expense of making the Damascus be the test piece. Looking forward to your results, and hoping for success! May it go well...
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
157
Location
Maryland
...Steve I do have some O1 Tool steel rod I could drill and turn to size and heat treat then test for warping without chancing the Damascus. It wouldn't guarantee results but may temper my fear. I could also test my ability to drill and turn once hardened.

That sounds like a good approach, and may well avoid damaging your work and expense of making the Damascus be the test piece. Looking forward to your results, and hoping for success! May it go well...

Hi guys sorry for the delay but I was on a 4 day leave. Testing on the o1 realy wont work because there are no stress points put in it from forging and layering Damascus. Just my own opinion from the billets iv'e made. however if a good normalizing schedule was used there should be minimal warpage...remember a barrel is a continuous arch and is hard to collapse. as for the 304 s/s the choice of metals for knife makers is different than pen turners. an example is I look for one steel with high mag content and the second is a low. the higher manganese will etch darker. next since 304 is not hardenable using regular S/S machining should work...slow speed and light cuts and carbide tips. you might have hit lamineer de-carb layers. (sorry for the poor spelling) when properly heat treated the structure should be spherical if the steel is worked too hot the carbon forms sheet like boundaries and are the devil to cut. Iv'e torn up several 120" band-saw blades on them and needed to re- heattreat.
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
...Steve I do have some O1 Tool steel rod I could drill and turn to size and heat treat then test for warping without chancing the Damascus. It wouldn't guarantee results but may temper my fear. I could also test my ability to drill and turn once hardened.

That sounds like a good approach, and may well avoid damaging your work and expense of making the Damascus be the test piece. Looking forward to your results, and hoping for success! May it go well...

Hi guys sorry for the delay but I was on a 4 day leave. Testing on the o1 realy wont work because there are no stress points put in it from forging and layering Damascus. Just my own opinion from the billets iv'e made. however if a good normalizing schedule was used there should be minimal warpage...remember a barrel is a continuous arch and is hard to collapse. as for the 304 s/s the choice of metals for knife makers is different than pen turners. an example is I look for one steel with high mag content and the second is a low. the higher manganese will etch darker. next since 304 is not hardenable using regular S/S machining should work...slow speed and light cuts and carbide tips. you might have hit lamineer de-carb layers. (sorry for the poor spelling) when properly heat treated the structure should be spherical if the steel is worked too hot the carbon forms sheet like boundaries and are the devil to cut. Iv'e torn up several 120" band-saw blades on them and needed to re- heattreat.

Thanks for the advice on the O1. I guess I'll just take the plunge and send the SS Damascus pen barrels to Heat Treat. My last concern will be the dimensional changes, specifically ID post heat treat. The 304 layers shouldn't be affected but the AEB-L will to some degree. I would expect the ID to shrink some but I've no way to know the allowance for it. I never had this issue for blades, so what if it's a few thousandths longer/shorter/thinner. On the pen ID, it can be critical. Any experience in dimensional changes from heat treating? My other option is to machine my ID so the kit is a loose fit and glue then in verses a press fit construction.

Danny
 

SteveG

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,985
Location
Eugene, Oregon 97404
I am appreciating this discussion, and am in anticipation of your results Dan. This will be an excellent reference as a fairly concise roadmap for anyone wanting to attack Damascus pen work. Might we be revisiting the allegation ...

"The pen (of Damascus, of course), is mightier than the sword (of 'ordinary' steel, of course)! :eek: :eek: :eek:
....................................................................................................................................:tongue: :rolleyes:
 
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
157
Location
Maryland
...Steve I do have some O1 Tool steel rod I could drill and turn to size and heat treat then test for warping without chancing the Damascus. It wouldn't guarantee results but may temper my fear. I could also test my ability to drill and turn once hardened.

That sounds like a good approach, and may well avoid damaging your work and expense of making the Damascus be the test piece. Looking forward to your results, and hoping for success! May it go well...

Hi guys sorry for the delay but I was on a 4 day leave. Testing on the o1 realy wont work because there are no stress points put in it from forging and layering Damascus. Just my own opinion from the billets iv'e made. however if a good normalizing schedule was used there should be minimal warpage...remember a barrel is a continuous arch and is hard to collapse. as for the 304 s/s the choice of metals for knife makers is different than pen turners. an example is I look for one steel with high mag content and the second is a low. the higher manganese will etch darker. next since 304 is not hardenable using regular S/S machining should work...slow speed and light cuts and carbide tips. you might have hit lamineer de-carb layers. (sorry for the poor spelling) when properly heat treated the structure should be spherical if the steel is worked too hot the carbon forms sheet like boundaries and are the devil to cut. Iv'e torn up several 120" band-saw blades on them and needed to re- heattreat.

Thanks for the advice on the O1. I guess I'll just take the plunge and send the SS Damascus pen barrels to Heat Treat. My last concern will be the dimensional changes, specifically ID post heat treat. The 304 layers shouldn't be affected but the AEB-L will to some degree. I would expect the ID to shrink some but I've no way to know the allowance for it. I never had this issue for blades, so what if it's a few thousandths longer/shorter/thinner. On the pen ID, it can be critical. Any experience in dimensional changes from heat treating? My other option is to machine my ID so the kit is a loose fit and glue then in verses a press fit construction.

Danny

you should be ok even with 0.001" change I just have my handy dandy reamer ready after H/T as for leingth some 80-100 grit will fix that. are you doing a full H/T with cryo or just a hot H/T with S/S you dont get a full hardning until it goes to -300 F.
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
If this were for a blade i would definitely do the cryo treatment. AEB-L can pick up 2 to 3 points of hardness as low as -100F. I really don't see the need for the pen. I will likely temper fairly high to give some toughness. I may even play with some heat coloring.

Danny
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
Well Heat Coloring works but doesn't help. Both metals in my Damascus color exactly the same so you can't see the pattern. I got beautiful Blues and Purples just no pattern. Etch test next prior to heat treat on a sample to compare to the heat treated and etched material. I may also try Ferric Chloride and Muriatic Acid. I'll be sure to post pics when I'm done.
 

Skie_M

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
2,737
Location
Lawton, Ok
Hmm ... will they polish separately? It could give you one material looking silvery and the other looking heat colored?
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
Hmm ... will they polish separately? It could give you one material looking silvery and the other looking heat colored?

One would have to etch it first then buff off the black oxide and then blue and lightly sand the surface. I may try on a small piece. Then I wouldn't have to worry about heat treating to get a dark oxide to form.
 

frank123

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
613
Location
Colorado
Quenching is probably where you'll get warping in the heat treating process.

Try as slow a quench medium as you can get away with to keep the metals from moving around too much during the quench. Be sure to normalize the steel first during the heat treat, that can make a difference.

You may not need it to go to its maximum hardness to get the effect you need, maybe a partial quench in hot oil followed by an air quench the rest of the way?

I'm mostly guessing on this, I haven't ever tried to quench a Damascus cylinder. Probably experimenting a bit on some scrap would be a good idea if you have any.

Try using 5 or 10 percent cobalt tooling to cut the hardened steel, I use this on hardened 4140 and get good results (careful when grinding, inhaling cobalt dust is not good)
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
Quenching is probably where you'll get warping in the heat treating process.

Try as slow a quench medium as you can get away with to keep the metals from moving around too much during the quench. Be sure to normalize the steel first during the heat treat, that can make a difference.

You may not need it to go to its maximum hardness to get the effect you need, maybe a partial quench in hot oil followed by an air quench the rest of the way?

I'm mostly guessing on this, I haven't ever tried to quench a Damascus cylinder. Probably experimenting a bit on some scrap would be a good idea if you have any.

Try using 5 or 10 percent cobalt tooling to cut the hardened steel, I use this on hardened 4140 and get good results (careful when grinding, inhaling cobalt dust is not good)

Thanks Frank. I made the step to carbide in case cobalt wouldn't work. I didn't want to buy bits twice. The SS Damscus is made of air hardening AEB-L. Hopefully it doesn't warp in air. Dropping it off tomorrow at the heat treater. Fingers crossed.
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
YEA!!!! Heat treat done and straight as an arrow. Now to clean the oxidation off from the heat treating. Then clean up the ID to final dimensions and etch and assemble.
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    344.2 KB · Views: 178
Last edited:

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
Cleaned up and etched then sanded almost smooth and etched again. I learned a valuable lesson. The metal has to be VERY clean before etching. There were small spots I must have touched prior to the acid and it left areas unetched. The 2nd time I scrubbed them under hot water and was careful not to touch them again. 2nd time is a charm. I sooooo badly want to assemble my pen but I must wait a day for the oxidized layer to stabilize before handling.

Danny
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    249.1 KB · Views: 219

SteveG

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
2,985
Location
Eugene, Oregon 97404
It is great to know that the heat treat process left you with straight barrels, and that shot of the etched barrels is sweet. Waiting takes a while! :rolleyes::tongue:
 

More4dan

Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2016
Messages
2,102
Location
Katy, TX
And ANOTHER lesson learned. I coated the Damascus with WD 40 and it left a funky yellowed coating that won't scrub off. Soaked in acetone, vinegar, scrubbed with soap, even some time against the buffer. Looks like it's heading back into the muriatic acid.
 
Top Bottom