Jeer TurnTex Woodworks

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pennovice

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Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
28
Location
Amarillo, Texas
In april or may of 1013 I ordered the large stabilizing chamber and the smaller stabilizing chamber and all the bells and whistles. I mailed a personal check for the deposit as stated in the order format.
2 weeks later I had not received any kind of order confirmation or any communication.
I called and left voice mail a couple of times and sent an email inquiring about my order.
2 weeks later Curtis called me and had a song and dance about why he was so far behind. He stated he would have the order completed in approximately 6 weeks.

Either the end of July or the first of August I received a mass email with yet more song and dance and a plea to bear with him.
I sent him a reply that indicated I would like to pick mine up at SWAT, as I knew he was going to be there.
Again no response.
I approached Curtis at his vendor booth and inquired about my order.
He looked at me a few seconds and replied, "I don't know if I had you on the list or not". At which point he turned and continued a conversation with a fellow vendor.
now four months later still no chambers no more excuses,.
I am DONE with Turntex, he dosen't seem to need "MY" business.

I will find other chambers and regardless of if his cactus juice really is the best or not the bottle that's been in my fridge for 7 months is probably no good any more so I will never know.

:mad::at-wits-end:
 
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pensbydesign

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Apr 12, 2005
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842
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ware, ma, USA.
i got bitten by him to, paid for a product and he never deliverer it for 3 and half months, never returned phone calls email or pms. funny wasn't until i sent jeff a pm about this did he respond
he did make it right but will never do any business with again. always thought it funny how a moderator who was to watch over the iap for this could be guilty of that. what really made me mad was he was selling the very thing i was waiting for at shows instead of honoring a paid order.
 
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pennovice

Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Messages
28
Location
Amarillo, Texas
YUP!!!!!!

I know what you mean.

If his attitude at SWAT is as "I" read it to be, he could care less about us mail order people, he is all about the shows.

Might I ask HOW he made it right?? it is ok if you prefer not to say.
I am taking this JEER to the AAW form as well so the word really gets out.
I am tired of these people that do "BUSINESS" in this fashion ..or NOT do business would be a more accurate assessment.
 

OKLAHOMAN

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Joined
May 17, 2006
Messages
10,228
Location
Costa Rica
This is not in defense of Curtis as I don't know the whole stories given here, but I do know he has had at times been overwhelmed with orders just as he had personal things such as his Dad being sick and passing, and his help not showing up. I've been working on a project with him for a little over a year and have had delays, some him, most being me. I know he's honest and will make it up to you.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
758
Location
Bush, LA, USA.
I have experienced the same results as pen novice, I have just decided to give up the cause. if I decide to do some stabilizing I will purchase the equipment.

this is not meant to bash, I am just a dissatisfied ex-customer.

I hope his life improves in 2014.
 

MesquiteMan

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Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
I just got off the phone with Mr. McManaman (pennovice). I saw his post here and realized I needed to personally apologize to him. I never intended to snub him at SWAT but due to the hectic nature of running a booth by myself, it happened. It was unintentional but nevertheless, it happened and partly led to his Jeer, rightfully so.

So, publicly, I would like to once again offer my apologies to Mr. McManaman. It is not my nature to treat anyone that way. As a matter of fact, my nature is to always treat folks better than I expect to be treated. With Mr. McManaman, I failed and am deeply ashamed of that.

I am sorry sir.
 

MesquiteMan

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San Marcos, TX, USA.
I can sit here and explain what has happened this past year but some will just think of it as making excuses. I don't make excuses, I just state the facts and let the chips fall where they may.

My business has been growing at a tremendous rate this year. I am a one man shop with a part time helper (2-3 hours a day). Everything I do is done in house with the highest regard for quality. All Cactus Juice is bottled, packaged, and shipped from my shop. All chambers are made here in my shop. In an effort to make stabilizing more affordable for more people, all of my chambers are sold at cost. In other words, I do not make a penny profit on my chambers. As a result, there is not enough money in the chamber to have them made by someone else for me. This leaves me with three options: Raise the price significantly to allow for someone else to make them for me and then just handle completed chambers, have them made in China (never going to happen), or try to improve manufacturing efficiencies. I choose the later.

Earlier this spring, I spent $6,000 on a CNC router to aid in production. It was one that I built myself. The assembly went well and things looked like they would be turning the corner quickly. I am a reasonably smart fellow that is very mechanically inclined and very computer savvy. I figured that once I got the machine up and running, I would be in full production within a couple of weeks and communicated that with my customers. Well, things didn't go as smoothly as I anticipated to say the least. I ruined over $500 worth of material and have spent most of the summer learning how to get the results I need with the CNC. It is one of those things where once you jump in, you have to keep swimming. It was around October before I finally had a grip on things to where the CNC was doing what I needed it to do and to my quality standards.

Naturally, by then, my backlog had grown considerably. I have changed the ESTIMATED lead times on my site numerous times to try to convey what I think they will be and have been making and shipping a bunch of chambers each week. I am working through my backlog as quickly as possible and making good progress but still have a ways to go.

Now remember, being a one man shop, not only do I make the chambers, but I also reply to e-mails and answer telephone calls. I get an average of 4-6 telephone calls per day (including the weekends) that last an average of 45 minutes to an hour each. I NEVER rush a customer off the phone and always make sure they have all the information they need. I try to be more than helpful, even answering calls and e-mails about Alumilite and casting which is not something I even sell or benefit from!

I do reply to all e-mails as quickly as I can. Many of my e-mails are not short, one line answers. Folks are asking how to double dye wood, how to get the best results stabilizing their wood, and how to do many things that are already posted on my website. Rather than just tell them to look at my website, I take the time to reply with a complete answer. I can easily spend 2-3 hours a day just replying to e-mails.

If I spend 4 hours on the phone and 2-3 hours answering e-mails, that is 6-7 hours of the day. Add in a couple of hours packing and shipping orders and my day is now at 8-9 hours and I still need to work on chambers! I usually spend another 4-5 hours a day working on chambers (unless I have family commitments) but 4-5 hours does not allow a huge amount of production.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining or whining at all. I love very much what I do and would not change it for anything. I love talking with my customers and helping any way I can. This can easily be verified from the over 1,000 customers I have shipped chambers to in the last 3 years. I am just a small business struggling with success.

So, where do I go from here and what steps do I take to increase customer satisfaction and reduce lead times?

First, I have the CNC running smoothly and now that the holidays are over, will be humming right along working on that backlog, putting in extra hours.

Second, just a month ago, I spent $1,600 on a bottling machine to drastically speed up bottling production and free up more time for chamber production. I also spent $400 on a machine just for bottling the catalyst.

Third, my wife is going to start helping with packaging and shipping Not sure this is a good idea but we are going to give it a try!

I am not sure what other changes I can make but would absolutely welcome your suggestions.
 

pensbydesign

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
842
Location
ware, ma, USA.
i would just bring out that you had a 4 week lead time on your site when i ordered, which was fine, at 7 or 8 weeks i started looking for some idea what was happening, you had my money i had no product. it wasn't until 3 month went by you responded to me after i made many emails and pm and a few phone calls. had my suggestion is when you tell someone you have a time line and miss it contact them not make them chase you. this really left me with a bad feelings towards your company,
 

MesquiteMan

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Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
Mr. Rice,

Not to be argumentative but your recollection of things is wrong, sir.

First, you were not bitten by me. You bought and received the product you paid for. You also received a COMPLETE REFUND for that purchase, even though I still shipped it. Also, your timeline is way off. You say 3 and 1/2 months. I keep documentation of everything. Here is the timeline for those that care.

Order placed: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 at 12:06 pm
Order shipped: Friday, September 23, 2011
Payment REFUNDED: Friday, September 23, 2011

Exactly one month to the day. Granted, this is not acceptable and is no where near what happens today. Cactus Juice was first introduced to the market in February of 2011. At the time, I was still building houses and also building my Cactus Juice business. Cash flow was tight since I refused to borrow money to start my Cactus Juice business and could not afford to keep large quantities of raw material on had at all times..

Backing up a little...June 14, 2011 my father died. Being the oldest child, a lot of weight was put on my shoulders and his death hit me VERY hard. Things got behind (not financially) and I was struggling to keep up. I had an $800,000 custom home under construction for a client at the time as well and they were jumping down my throat 2 weeks after my dad's death for the two week delay!

SWAT (the show you mention) was already committed to and paid for at the beginning of that year. I had to leave for SWAT on Thursday, August 24 and had been preparing inventory for the show all week. I had Cactus Juice bottled, boxed, and set aside for the show. This was the very first show I had ever done so I was stressing out on getting things ready and did not ship any orders that week. As a matter of fact, I did not even look at the orders that came in that week until I got back from the show.

At the show, I sold everything I took with me. When I got back, I had to re-order raw material and wait for it to come in. Then it had to be mixed, bottled, and shipped. I got back from the show on August 29 and spent the next day with my wife and daughter since I had been away. I then re-ordered material and waited for it to arrive. Once it got here, I bottled your order and shipped it, then issued a FULL REFUND. I also communicated all of this with you via e-mail but you did not care at all.

Yes, it took longer than it should have but no where near 3.5 months as you state here. Yes, I should have looked at my orders before I left and pulled enough out of what was already packed for the show to make sure I had yours ready when I returned. I learned a lot from the interaction with you on this and made some changes.

Now, in most cases, if I receive an order before 4 pm of in stock items, it gets shipped that day for domestic orders and is picked up at 5pm that day by UPS. I also bought a computer for the shop so that I do not have to go back inside to check orders. Now, when an order comes in, an alert is presented on the computer screen, I print the order, and we start packing it. I also keep a MUCH larger supply of raw materials on hand.

i got bitten by him to, paid for a product and he never deliverer it for 3 and half months, never returned phone calls email or pms. funny wasn't until i sent jeff a pm about this did he respond
he did make it right but will never do any business with again. always thought it funny how a moderator who was to watch over the iap for this could be guilty of that. what really made me mad was he was selling the very thing i was waiting for at shows instead of honoring a paid order.
 

MesquiteMan

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Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
Mr. Rice,

What are we talking about here, sir? I see two orders from you in my system. Both shipped within one month confirmed by my Paypal info. Am I missing something here?

If I am wrong, please accept my apologies but I am only going by what I have records of. I am not trying to be a jerk and would really like to get to the bottom of this.
 

MesquiteMan

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Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
Mr. Shackleford, Your order was placed and deposit paid on my site 8/5/13 with a stated ESTIMATED lead time of 4-6 months for that size chamber. We are still within that timeline at the moment. You e-mailed about your order and I replied. Not sure what more I should be doing sir.

I have experienced the same results as pen novice, I have just decided to give up the cause. if I decide to do some stabilizing I will purchase the equipment.

this is not meant to bash, I am just a dissatisfied ex-customer.

I hope his life improves in 2014.
 

robutacion

Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
I can sit here and explain what has happened this past year but some will just think of it as making excuses. I don't make excuses, I just state the facts and let the chips fall where they may.

My business has been growing at a tremendous rate this year. I am a one man shop with a part time helper (2-3 hours a day). Everything I do is done in house with the highest regard for quality. All Cactus Juice is bottled, packaged, and shipped from my shop. All chambers are made here in my shop. In an effort to make stabilizing more affordable for more people, all of my chambers are sold at cost. In other words, I do not make a penny profit on my chambers. As a result, there is not enough money in the chamber to have them made by someone else for me. This leaves me with three options: Raise the price significantly to allow for someone else to make them for me and then just handle completed chambers, have them made in China (never going to happen), or try to improve manufacturing efficiencies. I choose the later.

Earlier this spring, I spent $6,000 on a CNC router to aid in production. It was one that I built myself. The assembly went well and things looked like they would be turning the corner quickly. I am a reasonably smart fellow that is very mechanically inclined and very computer savvy. I figured that once I got the machine up and running, I would be in full production within a couple of weeks and communicated that with my customers. Well, things didn't go as smoothly as I anticipated to say the least. I ruined over $500 worth of material and have spent most of the summer learning how to get the results I need with the CNC. It is one of those things where once you jump in, you have to keep swimming. It was around October before I finally had a grip on things to where the CNC was doing what I needed it to do and to my quality standards.

Naturally, by then, my backlog had grown considerably. I have changed the ESTIMATED lead times on my site numerous times to try to convey what I think they will be and have been making and shipping a bunch of chambers each week. I am working through my backlog as quickly as possible and making good progress but still have a ways to go.

Now remember, being a one man shop, not only do I make the chambers, but I also reply to e-mails and answer telephone calls. I get an average of 4-6 telephone calls per day (including the weekends) that last an average of 45 minutes to an hour each. I NEVER rush a customer off the phone and always make sure they have all the information they need. I try to be more than helpful, even answering calls and e-mails about Alumilite and casting which is not something I even sell or benefit from!

I do reply to all e-mails as quickly as I can. Many of my e-mails are not short, one line answers. Folks are asking how to double dye wood, how to get the best results stabilizing their wood, and how to do many things that are already posted on my website. Rather than just tell them to look at my website, I take the time to reply with a complete answer. I can easily spend 2-3 hours a day just replying to e-mails.

If I spend 4 hours on the phone and 2-3 hours answering e-mails, that is 6-7 hours of the day. Add in a couple of hours packing and shipping orders and my day is now at 8-9 hours and I still need to work on chambers! I usually spend another 4-5 hours a day working on chambers (unless I have family commitments) but 4-5 hours does not allow a huge amount of production.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining or whining at all. I love very much what I do and would not change it for anything. I love talking with my customers and helping any way I can. This can easily be verified from the over 1,000 customers I have shipped chambers to in the last 3 years. I am just a small business struggling with success.

So, where do I go from here and what steps do I take to increase customer satisfaction and reduce lead times?

First, I have the CNC running smoothly and now that the holidays are over, will be humming right along working on that backlog, putting in extra hours.

Second, just a month ago, I spent $1,600 on a bottling machine to drastically speed up bottling production and free up more time for chamber production. I also spent $400 on a machine just for bottling the catalyst.

Third, my wife is going to start helping with packaging and shipping Not sure this is a good idea but we are going to give it a try!

I am not sure what other changes I can make but would absolutely welcome your suggestions.

Well, it saddens me that, someone feels that bad about you and your service, and while I have a great respect for you Curtis, I believe these people have the right to be most frustrated and upset, that is no question so, what do I thing YOU and OTHERS have to do to allow you to catch up and stop these long delays, complains and need to keep apologising publicly time after time, once and for all...???

Well firstly, you have repeatedly demonstrated the amount of time you have actually left in a day to do some work, after all the email replies and phone time, I know that you like to spend the time to explain things in details BUT, you are not helping at all to resolve the issue, you have to find a better way to get those explanations to your customers, instead of spend 45 minutes per call with each person, that may friend is not helping at all on the other hand, is also very selfish that ANYONE that is aware of your dilemma, thinks that is alright to keep calling you and disrupt your work only to have the his/her issues (even the minor stuff) explained one to one, that is just ridiculous and is as much your fault as is the callers fault to keep doing it.

Sure, your customers deserve to be assisted by you and you have an obligation to do so BUT, this has been going on for far too long and I am no seeing you address the issue as I believe you should.

I'm your friend and also a customer, I hate to see your name and person being jeered in such faction, when I know you are a "good guy" with a big heart but that my friend, isn't helping you much in this situation, believe me, I know from experience so, what do I thing should be done to get things on track...???

*- Have your customers or potential customers to understand that, is not right to call you and expect you to stop what you are doing to answer their questions/issues in such great detail, and yes guys, I'm talking about all you, I'm a customer and I could very easily grab the phone and become part of the problem instead of trying to be part of the solution so folks, try to understand the dilemma this man is confronting and stop being selfish by using his precious time to your own advantage, get off that phone and let the man do some work, do you...??:)

*- You have to find a way to respond your emails within an acceptable time frame, be less detailed and spend less time with each one, that will help considerably and people have to accept that, unless they need urgent assistance, do not "bog" Curtis with minor issues, that is only adding to the problem...!

*- You need to have someone with you that can work and can work fast and for more than a couple of hours here and there and when you need it and not when the helper feel like come to do some work, that is not helping you a bit, you need someone reliable, responsible and willing to work and you have to accept that, until this second person is able to free you for other things that need to be done, you have to sacrifice some of your profits to get you out of this jam, that is only getter bigger and worse as the time goes by.

As I said many time before, I wish that I was within driving distance to give you a hand getting things to where they should be, I'm old and worn out but, I would get the situation solved in a couple of months, guaranteed...!:wink::biggrin:

Make the beginning of 2014 as the starting point to resolve the problem but, you have to make dramatic changes to obtain dramatic results, there is no other way that I know off...!

You have asked for suggestions, and I'm giving you mine, you know I mean well and I mean what I say, if there is anything you see I can do to help you, you know where to find me...!:wink:

Cheers
George
 

MesquiteMan

Retired Head Moderator
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
George,

Your suggestions are all well and good and appreciated but the personal service and attention with help AFTER the sale is what sets me apart from others.

My helper is a GREAT helper and has a wonderful work ethic for the most part. He has become an integral part of TurnTex. The issue is, he is in college and can only work when not in class. Hopefully his schedule this year will be better.
 

pensbydesign

Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
842
Location
ware, ma, USA.
didn't know about any 30 day rule so wish i dint't bring it up, bitten was a wrong choice of words, i did state that you did take care of it nor do i want to give anybody the impression you tried to "bite"me i don't think you would would. but i think your dates are wrong when i ordered it i knew it was going to be 4 week and would crazy to get upset if it was only 4 weeks.if its was 4 weeks and you told me that, why would have done what you did if you shipped it 4 weeks to the day. not sure what else to say about it.
 

MesquiteMan

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Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
Steve,

My lead times on chambers was stated at 4 weeks at the time but my lead times on Juice was probably 7 days if I recall correctly so you had a right to be upset about the one month delay in delivery. Besides, when a customer is upset about something, I try to go way above and beyond, even if I do not feel completely in the wrong. You were unhappy so I did not feel like I earned your business on that order so I refunded your money and shipped anyway. Here is the Paypal screen showing the dates as stated above just to show I am providing factual information.

Rice Payment and Refund2.jpg
 

mtgrizzly52

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Messages
326
Location
Kalispell, MT, USA.
If I might be so bold..... I have never met Curtis personally, but I have grown to respect him through the phone calls we've had in the past. I believe you Curtis will make whatever changes necessary to satisfy the huge customer load that you have.

As far as this thread is concerned, I feel that the problem or issues have been identified, a dialogue started and I'm sure a resolution to those items will be settled upon by all involved, but the forum is not where that needs to be done because it will turn into a huge "you know what" match before resolution is achieved.

So I would ask that this thread be locked by the Mods and let Curtis deal one on one with the fellows that have complaints.

Thanks for considering my request, and Curtis, I am solidly in support of you. Even though I live in Montana, if there is anything I can do to help out, please don't hesitate to contact me!

Rick (mtgrizzly52)
 

woodwizzard

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
17
Location
Manila
Pride of workmanship and maintaining quality standards are important, but so are delivery schedules. That said, a piece of plastic is a piece of plastic. I ordered a large chamber in March or April 2013, had not come by Oct, so I cancelled the order, got a full refund, placed the order on TAP PLASTIC in Santa Rosa Ca, at the same price, it was ready in 3 days. I made the top, bought the hardware at Harbor Freight and a vacuum gauge at a welding supplier, and now have a working chamber. May I suggest that a bottleneck because of a product that can be an outside purchase is a sad way to loose customers. Its not necessary to go to China to get a plastic chamber, and I suspect that orders placed on American plastic fabricators will be the same quality as those produced in-house. I showed a small chamber as a sample of what the plastic should be, was told its std mtl, so no problem for TAP PLASTIC to produce. Not pushing TAP PLASTIC, but it was the most convenient place for me, a few blocks from where I live. A local wood shop could do the tops and install the hardware and gauge at a price that would allow MesquiteMan to concentrate on going to the bank rather than returning deposits.
 

robutacion

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Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
George,

Your suggestions are all well and good and appreciated but the personal service and attention with help AFTER the sale is what sets me apart from others.

My helper is a GREAT helper and has a wonderful work ethic for the most part. He has become an integral part of TurnTex. The issue is, he is in college and can only work when not in class. Hopefully his schedule this year will be better.

Curtis,

Sure mate, and I and many others know that but, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect customers to understand and accept that, from the moment they call, you are going to stop everything (unless you are an octopus with all those many arms...!) and talk to them so, why is people not seeing that, they are adding to the problem, knowing how you will react...???

Now, what is so unreasonable to ask people to limit those calls..??? if you get no calls, you can do some work, right...???:wink::biggrin:

I did non mean that your helper was no good but, you have stated a few times that when you need him, he isn't there sure, if is in school he can not be in 2 different places at once that is the reason why I mention someone more "reliable" in the times needed.

I did also read about your wife starting to help you out with some physical aspects of the business, I don't know why you question if the idea is a good one or not, most women are a lot more capable them some males may think/believe, I would be lost without my wife and every minute that she helps me, is a minute that I can dedicate to something else so, I only see that, will be a positive to the situation, after all, isn't the "alter" promise " for better and for worse...!!":wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George
 
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MesquiteMan

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Oct 18, 2005
Messages
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George,

My wife used to run the office of my construction company when I was still building houses. I fought against it for a couple of years after seeing my parents do the same thing and fighting all the time. I finally relented and she started working for me. It was supposed to be that she was just working FOR me, not WITH me. Don't need more than one Chief on the reservation so to speak. After time, we started butting heads and working together was hard. When we quit building, things got MUCH better and we got along much better. Just concerned about that, that is all!
 

MesquiteMan

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Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
Mr. Powers,

I do not have any order from you in my system, either pending or cancelled. Was it placed under a different name by any chance?

As for going to TAP or other locations...that is always an option for anyone. As a matter of fact, I will even help folks learn how to build their own chambers and have done so MANY times. Not sure that the price at TAP is going to be the same or less than I build them for, though. At least not around here. I actually talked to them as well as 5 other plastic fabricators in the area about building chambers for me. The best I found was $110 for JUST the acrylic part without a lid or any fittings or hose. And this was with a minimum order of 25 at a time.

Pride of workmanship and maintaining quality standards are important, but so are delivery schedules. That said, a piece of plastic is a piece of plastic. I ordered a large chamber in March or April 2013, had not come by Oct, so I cancelled the order, got a full refund, placed the order on TAP PLASTIC in Santa Rosa Ca, at the same price, it was ready in 3 days. I made the top, bought the hardware at Harbor Freight and a vacuum gauge at a welding supplier, and now have a working chamber. May I suggest that a bottleneck because of a product that can be an outside purchase is a sad way to loose customers. Its not necessary to go to China to get a plastic chamber, and I suspect that orders placed on American plastic fabricators will be the same quality as those produced in-house. I showed a small chamber as a sample of what the plastic should be, was told its std mtl, so no problem for TAP PLASTIC to produce. Not pushing TAP PLASTIC, but it was the most convenient place for me, a few blocks from where I live. A local wood shop could do the tops and install the hardware and gauge at a price that would allow MesquiteMan to concentrate on going to the bank rather than returning deposits.
 

mightymavkev

Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
34
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Obviously, I can only relay my own personal experience as input to this situation. Curtis went out of his way for me this holiday season and given all on his plate - both professionally and personally - he's earned my future business.

His type of service is not common any more in this country and I think there is some value in that level of personal interaction - even if it isn't the fastest way to do business.

Kevin
 

robutacion

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Joined
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Messages
6,514
Location
Australia - SA Adelaide Hills
George,

My wife used to run the office of my construction company when I was still building houses. I fought against it for a couple of years after seeing my parents do the same thing and fighting all the time. I finally relented and she started working for me. It was supposed to be that she was just working FOR me, not WITH me. Don't need more than one Chief on the reservation so to speak. After time, we started butting heads and working together was hard. When we quit building, things got MUCH better and we got along much better. Just concerned about that, that is all!

Hi Curtis,

And you have all the right to me mate, some couples just can't work together and like you said before, 2 "rosters" in the same chicken pen just don't work, I should know, I lost my first 12 year marriage because of that...!:frown:

Maybe if you ask your wife to work with you and not for you, you get a different result, sometimes is just not worth the risk so, I understand you well, I wish the best of luck...!:)

Cheers
George
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Bush, LA, USA.
Curtis I had that as my second communication discussing a less expensive tube version. I am looking forward to the delivery. thank you for the replyp
 

woodwizzard

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
17
Location
Manila
Mr. Seebeck: I live in Manila, Philippines. I asked a friend who lives in Santa Rosa, Ca to place an order for me in spring of 2013, as I was planning on being in the U.S. towards fall, and I wanted to bring the chamber with me when I returned to Manila. I was in in the states from 29 July - 10 Dec, and was travelling around the country until 4 Oct. When I returned to Ca, on 4 Oct, and the chamber had not arrived, I asked my friend to cancel the order and placed my order on Tap. I will ask permission to provide you his name and address, if you still want it.

If you will permit some observation. You have over 1000 customers. A small chamber is approximately $100. Times 1000 thats $100K, +/-. If each customer used one gal of juice a yr, at $100/gal, thats a repeat business of $100K/yr. When I joined IAP there were 11K members. Now there are 16K. You have a good market to sell to, have gained a reputation for being reliable and meticulous. Buying a $6K NCR to make chambers is not in your best interests. You dont make money from the chamber, and any money invested in making chambers is down the tubes. It takes your attention away from your profit source.

I will not speculate on the profit margin of juice, but if it is 50%, than 1000 customers yields $50K/yr. With 16K members in IAP it would seem that your best interests would be to increase your customer base from 1K to 3K or 4K, as it takes a lot less time to empty a drum into bottles than it takes to make a chamber, and any field hand or school girl could do it.

You mentioned that you would never buy chambers from China. And for good reason. Shipping a chamber is shipping air. The cost of shipping would be more than the cost of the chamber. Plastics are made in every country. Raw material cost would be similar. There is very little labor in making a chamber, so there is no way to significantly reduce production costs.

And one last thought. Texans, male and female, have been known to be a bit hard headed. When I got out of the Army in 1956 I went to school in Tulsa. A good 'ol gal from Odessa was a big help in getting me thru. You might have time to get more done if you gave your wife the keys to getting a job done and get out of her way when she does it. Go make juice and let her handle the everything else. She'll find a way.

Although not necessary for this conversation, I have been in international business since 1959, have lived in the orient since 1962, have been a consultant to a wide variety of process industries, have had an industrial construction company and now am retired with a 25K sqft woodworking shop for something to do while my wife finishes her MA in Creative Writing. My comments are not intended to disparage or offend, and are offered as observations based on a lifetime of getting a job done. Each situation is different, and I have no doubt yours has some features that are unique.
 

woodwizzard

Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
17
Location
Manila
Mr. Seebeck: To address the second part of your comment to me. Chambers are the bottleneck. The difference in cost between an in-house fabricated chamber and an outside produced chamber is not enough to stop an interested buyer. This is a hobby for most. Let your customers make the decision to spend the difference and get going immediately, or wait until you have the time to make the chamber. If the outside purchase is $150 +/-, and you bought 25, you would have $3,750 tied up in immediately salable inventory. You invested 6K in a machine to make the chambers, and nothing is ready until you make it. You cant sell juice until the chamber is ready.
 

fsyxxx

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
51
Location
ATX(Austin, TX)
My 2 cents.... I have ordered from Curtis and he has always taken very good care of me, better than I had any right to expect. He has helped me with problems and answered questions more than I probably should have bothered him with. I'm sorry that some folks have had some problems but I want to let everyone know that I believe those are the exceptions not the rules. Curtis gets a thumbs up from me and I find him to be am genuine guy.
 
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MesquiteMan

Retired Head Moderator
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
Buying a $6K NCR to make chambers is not in your best interests. You dont make money from the chamber, and any money invested in making chambers is down the tubes. It takes your attention away from your profit source.

Mr. Powers, some things are worth more to me than profit. Building a superior chamber with excellent fit and finish and attention to detail is one of them. If I can make a superior product that exceeds my customers expectations (the ones who are willing to wait) and makes me proud of my work, that is good enough for me. I will never get rich with this attitude but frankly, that has never been my focus in my adult life anyway. Money invested in making my chambers is not down the tubes to me because I do recover those costs over time. Yeah, it may not be the best way to do things if maximizing profit is the goal but that is not my focus.
 

NittanyLion

Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
804
Location
State College PA
So, publicly, I would like to once again offer my apologies to Mr. McManaman. It is not my nature to treat anyone that way. As a matter of fact, my nature is to always treat folks better than I expect to be treated. With Mr. McManaman, I failed and am deeply ashamed of that.

I am sorry sir.

To me, this is all that is important. I've had bad luck with a vendor in the past....and usually I'm willing to give a second chance. I've had responses from the president of a large vendor that came nowhere near what Curtis stated above. We all slip and fall at times. I think Curtis got back up with dignity.
 

kovalcik

Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
891
Location
Barrington, NH
IMO George is correct and you need to somehow streamline your support. May I suggest a detailed FAQ and a set of written or video tutorials on your website? If you can turn a 45 minute detailed phone call or email into a 5 minute "I think this document or video will solve your problem. Please call or email back if it does not." and convey the same information and level of service, everyone benefits. Besides, a detailed written or video description with pictures usually beats a phone conversation any day.
 
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MesquiteMan

Retired Head Moderator
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
That information is mostly already there. I have a FAQ component that I update regularly as more unique questions come in. I also have complete written directions with links at numerous locations as well as a youtube video with the complete process from start to finish. I also include a sheet in every order now that has a list of suggestions for best results.

Folks like to talk on the phone and I like talking to them! Some things are just easier to explain by phone than by the written word.

I could very well tell folks to check my website but that is like when someone new posts on here with a question and is told to do a search or check the library. Personally, I think that is rude and that will never happen as long as I am in business and can afford to provide the personal support. I am not looking to become a large, faceless, soulless corporation. I am happy being a small guy with superior personal, one on one support. So, that puts things a little in a quandary.

IMO George is correct and you need to somehow streamline your support. May I suggest a detailed FAQ and a set of written or video tutorials on your website? If you can turn a 45 minute detailed phone call or email into a 5 minute "I think this document or video will solve your problem. Please call or email back if it does not." and convey the same information and level of service, everyone benefits. Besides, a detailed written or video description with pictures usually beats a phone conversation any day.
 

bobleibo

Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2007
Messages
2,130
Location
Utah
Curtis
I just wanted to make a comment that you have been very dignified about this overblown situation that started out on in very classless manner IMHO. The way you conduct yourself in a situation like this says a lot more about you than your product or service and I respect that. My original post was deleted for being in the wrong category, but I think this conveys my feelings. If someone is unhappy (OP) there is a much more dignified way of expressing themselves than the way this has been done.
I think you have apologized more than enough and have probably garnered more customers because they have seen how committed you are to making things right when things go wrong. Every business will experience mistakes no matter who they are.

Happy New Year....sorry it started out like this.


ANDREW, IS THIS OK??? If not, go ahead and hit the delete button again. At least I feel better now.
Cheers :)





That information is mostly already there. I have a FAQ component that I update regularly as more unique questions come in. I also have complete written directions with links at numerous locations as well as a youtube video with the complete process from start to finish. I also include a sheet in every order now that has a list of suggestions for best results.

Folks like to talk on the phone and I like talking to them! Some things are just easier to explain by phone than by the written word.

I could very well tell folks to check my website but that is like when someone new posts on here with a question and is told to do a search or check the library. Personally, I think that is rude and that will never happen as long as I am in business and can afford to provide the personal support. I am not looking to become a large, faceless, soulless corporation. I am happy being a small guy with superior personal, one on one support. So, that puts things a little in a quandary.

IMO George is correct and you need to somehow streamline your support. May I suggest a detailed FAQ and a set of written or video tutorials on your website? If you can turn a 45 minute detailed phone call or email into a 5 minute "I think this document or video will solve your problem. Please call or email back if it does not." and convey the same information and level of service, everyone benefits. Besides, a detailed written or video description with pictures usually beats a phone conversation any day.
 

Jerryz

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Messages
26
Location
Phoenix
It was not classless nor overblown. Has the vendor behaved with decorum? Yes. Does the OP have a legit beef that's being shouted down? Even by people that have admitted they've had slow service similar to the OP? Yes! The vendor has received what I would consider helpful advice regarding process improvement, yet the vendor and his supporters have by turn negated, minimized, and generally dismissed any of that in favor excusing, explaining, and denigrating the OP. In my opinion that's truly classless.
 
Joined
Oct 11, 2007
Messages
758
Location
Bush, LA, USA.
I do not think it is unethical to place a dissatisfied relationship on this site. Many times there are other vendors who are not meeting the demands on a timely manner and nothing is said when that is posted. So I think if PenNovice has an issue he is permitted to post his dissatisfaction. Many of you are being unfair to him and others on this forum. It has run it's course but keep in mind that everyone has an opinion and we should respect them or new members will not remain feeling uncomfortable with the bashing of members.
 

MesquiteMan

Retired Head Moderator
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
5,678
Location
San Marcos, TX, USA.
I agree fully with everything said by JerryZ with one exception.

"yet the vendor and his supporters have by turn negated, minimized, and generally dismissed any of that in favor excusing, explaining, and denigrating the OP"

I do not see where I dismissed, negated, minimized or denegrated Mr. McManama in any way. I feel really bad for the way he feels and have apologized both here and "in person". I did post an explanation of why things happen the way they do sometimes just so that folks would have some insight into what goes on and what has gone on. I guess some can see this as making excuses.

I do agree that some of the follow up posts were harsh towards Mr. McManaman and I personally hate to see that. He had a legitimate beef and I am glad, in some ways, that he posted his Jeer. Sure, I don't like the negative publicity but I believe you learn from your mistakes and am a big proponent of personal responsibility. I take full responsibility for what happened and will learn from it and be better for it.
 
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