preventing 'Jeers'

[Smitty37]

oh my

I'd say jeer when they don't meet their own promises, not what
we have come to expect from someone else.
Like I said.. I could be reading it wrong.

I think I should be able to jeer if they don't meet my expectations as long as I am clear in my post about why I am jeering.

A company that does the bare minimum when it comes to satisfying customers doesn't deserve the same reputation as those that go above and beyond and if we can't share our experiences in this section of the forum then where can we?

I don't care about hurting feelings when a business (or representative), in my opinion, shows a lack of concern for customers... (Not speaking about any business in particular here)

Only if your expectation are based on what the company promises to do. If they do what they say they are going to do - you do not have a valid complaint simply because you'd like them to do better. If seeing their promises you think they should do better -- shop elsewhere by all means but if you do shop there don't complain that they didn't meet your expectations.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

Only if your expectation are based on what the company promises to do. If they do what they say they are going to do - you do not have a valid complaint simply because you'd like them to do better. If seeing their promises you think they should do better -- shop elsewhere by all means but if you do shop there don't complain that they didn't meet your expectations.

I disagree and I don't see anything about that in the rules for this forum.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

If I am clear about why I am not satisfied, In my opinion I should be allowed to express my reason for being unhappy. It's up to the reader (you) to decide for yourself if you feel this jeer affects your opinion of the business. It's not for you to tell me I am not allowed to say anything about it.

This isn't a "Cheer or 'Jeer unless anybody else disagrees with your reason for jeering'" forum.

 

[Smitty37]

Rule of fairness

Only if your expectation are based on what the company promises to do. If they do what they say they are going to do - you do not have a valid complaint simply because you'd like them to do better. If seeing their promises you think they should do better -- shop elsewhere by all means but if you do shop there don't complain that they didn't meet your expectations.

I disagree and I don't see anything about that in the rules for this forum.

Ask yourself this. "If I promise to do something and I do it, should the promisee say I'm a bad guy because he/she wished I had promised more?"

In other words, would you like to be treated in the way you advocate treating others? I somehow can't imagine that you would.

How can a vendor meet "your expectations" without even knowing what they are? If he/she delivers what they promise - that should meet your expectations if it doesn't, you should have been shopping elsewhere.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

If I extend your reasoning from your ealier post, I guess I shouldn't be able to cheer a business simply for doing something that they "promise to do" either... So since company X promises "100% customer satisfaction guaranteed" for example, they should never get any cheers because they are only doing what they promised?

If they have to refer to the technicalities of their service policies on a regular basis to defend their service or lack thereof then something is wrong. Notice I said "on a regular basis"... That's where you the reader come in and decide how my jeer affects or doesn't affect your opinion of the business in question. Use your brains to process the information instead of relying on censorship for everything you don't want to see.

 

[jeff]

Only if your expectation are based on what the company promises to do. If they do what they say they are going to do - you do not have a valid complaint simply because you'd like them to do better. If seeing their promises you think they should do better -- shop elsewhere by all means but if you do shop there don't complain that they didn't meet your expectations.

I disagree and I don't see anything about that in the rules for this forum.

Maybe we need to clarify that.

Can you help me understand what you mean, Keith?

If a vendor does exactly what he says, but you expected more because another vendor does better, would that be a valid jeer? For example, if a vendor said you'd have the package in a week, and that's when you got it, but you expected 3 days because another vendor does that, would that be fair game for complaint?

I guess from my point of view, if I enter into a transaction knowing the parameters, I have no complaint if the vendor held up his end of the bargain. If he didn't, or didn't tell me something, or didn't meet what the average reasonable person would expect, then I'd pursue some remedy. I might have higher expectations than what is offered, which might cause me to not complete a transaction, but once I do with all the facts, I can only gripe if the terms are broken.

I am only trying to understand everyone's perspective so we can make this forum useful!

 

[Smitty37]

Right on.....

If I extend your reasoning from your ealier post, I guess I shouldn't be able to cheer a business simply for doing something that they "promise to do" either... So since company X promises "100% customer satisfaction guaranteed" for example, they should never get any cheers because they are only doing what they promised?

If they have to refer to the technicalities of their service policies on a regular basis to defend their service or lack thereof then something is wrong. Notice I said "on a regular basis"... That's where you the reader come in and decide how my jeer affects or doesn't affect your opinion of the business in question. Use your brains to process the information instead of relying on censorship for everything you don't want to see.

I personally do not expect anyone to give me a cheer for simply doing what I promise to do - that is what I owe my customers.

If I didn't expect to do it for everyone I wouldn't promise. If I go beyond what I promise (I rarely do) and that pleases a customer a cheer might be in order. If I don't deliver on what I promise (and I suppose that sometimes I might not) a jeer might be in order.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

I just think people should use their own judgement to process the feedback instead of trying to force more rules so they don't have to see comments they don't agree with.

I don't understand why expressing dissatisfaction for a company's practices so that others are informed is a bad thing. Whether that's "stated in their service policies" or not.

If a company advertises "absolutely no refunds" and they sell you junk that falls apart, should you not be able to jeer since you were aware of their rules before ordering and should have known better?

 

[SCR0LL3R]

"or didn't meet what the average reasonable person would expect"

This is the basis for the whole argument here... Everybody's opinion of reasonable is different and many people think Wiset's expectations weren't reaonable but he thought they were... Are we going to have the reasonable police approve/disapprove jeers before they get posted. There will always be disagreements on what is reasonable.. what percentage of the forum has to agree that the expectations were reasonable for it to be a valid jeer?

 

[Smitty37]

I just think people should use their own judgement to process the feedback instead of trying to force more rules so they don't have to see comments they don't agree with.

I don't understand why expressing dissatisfaction for a company's practices so that others are informed is a bad thing. Whether that's "stated in their service policies" or not.

If a company advertises "absolutely no refunds" and they sell you junk that falls apart, should you not be able to jeer since you were aware of their rules before ordering and should have known better?

Reducing to the absurd - doesn't work in this instance. Unless the company advertised that they were selling junk that will fall apart you have a valid complaint regarding the quality and suitability of the product.

It is a bad thing if they are living up to their policies and your only complaint is that you wish they had different policies. While business practices and policies in general are fair game for discussion specific policies of particular businesses are not. UNLESS - the practice or policy involves some sort of scam or other illegal activity.

 

[Papo]

Yea Yea Yea Yea!!!! Its Christmas don't get a stroke over it all

 

[Smitty37]

calm and collected

Yea Yea Yea Yea!!!! Its Christmas don't get a stroke over it all

Nobody is having a stroke --- it is a calm rational discussion of a difference of opinion. The hope is to make the forum a better place for a specific kind of discussion...:redface:

 

[SCR0LL3R]

It is a bad thing if they are living up to their policies and your only complaint is that you wish they had different policies. While business practices and policies in general are fair game for discussion specific policies of particular businesses are not. UNLESS - the practice or policy involves some sort of scam or other illegal activity.

Where would I post said complaints about policies and what would make that any better than posting it here?

Also why is discussion of specific policies of a business not "fair game for discussion? I don't see that in the rules.

 

[Papo]

OK then!!! Let me add one more yeah in there

 

[Smitty37]

You wouldn't

It is a bad thing if they are living up to their policies and your only complaint is that you wish they had different policies. While business practices and policies in general are fair game for discussion specific policies of particular businesses are not. UNLESS - the practice or policy involves some sort of scam or other illegal activity.

Where would I post said complaints about policies and what would make that any better than posting it here?

Your remedy normally is to take your business elsewhere if you don't like a stated policy of a company.

I frequently have to buy items from companies that have policies in certain matters that I don't particularily like. If they bother me too much I buy elsewhere. I don't buy from them and then try to diss them because I think they should have different policies. I don't agree with everything my two biggest suppliers have built into the way they run their businesses but I don't refuse to do business with them.

If a business has a stated policy that you do not like, you are free to contact them and tell them about it. You have no valid cause to "tell the world" that you do not like company A because company B has a better service [for instance] policy

 

[SCR0LL3R]

You have no valid cause to "tell the world" that you do not like company A because company B has a better service [for instance] policy

I don't have the right to "tell the world"? Says who... you?

/sigh

I give up Smitty.. Every post should have to be approved by a committee of 10'000 members before it goes up in public.

 

[Smitty37]

Right?

You have no valid cause to "tell the world" that you do not like company A because company B has a better service [for instance] policy

I don't have the right to "tell the world"? Says who... you?

/sigh

I give up Smitty.. Every post should have to be approved by a committee of 10'000 members before it goes up in public.

See what I said and what you said...
We are talking here about a forum at a privately owned web site...your "rights" don't enter into the discussion because here - you and I have only the rights that the owner gives us. I said "cause"....

 

[jeff]

You have no valid cause to "tell the world" that you do not like company A because company B has a better service [for instance] policy

I don't have the right to "tell the world"? Says who... you?

/sigh

I give up Smitty.. Every post should have to be approved by a committee of 10'000 members before it goes up in public.

I think we're straying off course here. The thread is about jeers.

You can certainly tell the world that you don't like company B because their policies are not as good as company A. That sort of thing is perfectly welcome at IAP. It's your opinion and you're free to state it. Casual conversation is the place for that.

However, the rules as written for Cheers & Jeers say; "...you must be commenting about products or services ordered within the previous 30 days."

If you buy from company A with the policies you don't like, that tells us that you decided to accept whatever substandard policies they have. If they met their obligation to you, to then jeer them because they are not as good as the other company seems a little unfair. If they didn't meet their obligations to you, expressed and implied (like not delivering broken stuff with no refunds!), and would not work it out, then that's a great time to play the jeer card.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

We are talking here about a forum at a privately owned web site...your "rights" don't enter into the discussion because here - you and I have only the rights that the owner gives us. I said "cause"....

See Smitty, this isn't written in the rules and you aren't the rule maker here so up until now at least, I do have the right regardless of what you say.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

If you buy from company A with the policies you don't like, that tells us that you decided to accept whatever substandard policies they have. If they met their obligation to you, to then jeer them because they are not as good as the other company seems a little unfair. If they didn't meet their obligations to you, expressed and implied (like not delivering broken stuff with no refunds!), and would not work it out, then that's a great time to play the jeer card.

If that's what you want. Its your forum. I tend to disagree and want a more free exchange of information...as much so as possible. Maybe my opinion is in the minority because there is such a strong tendency to want to moderate and restrict a lot around here.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

Maybe we can have "I'm not happy but not quite Jeered", "Jeer", and "They robbed me at gunpoint Jeer"

 

[jeff]

If you buy from company A with the policies you don't like, that tells us that you decided to accept whatever substandard policies they have. If they met their obligation to you, to then jeer them because they are not as good as the other company seems a little unfair. If they didn't meet their obligations to you, expressed and implied (like not delivering broken stuff with no refunds!), and would not work it out, then that's a great time to play the jeer card.

If that's what you want. Its your forum. I tend to disagree and want a more free exchange of information...as much so as possible. Maybe my opinion is in the minority because there is such a strong tendency to want to moderate and restrict a lot around here.

And in the paragraph before the one you quoted, I told you that you can freely state your opinion and have a free exchange about vendor policies in Casual Conversation.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

 

[joefyffe]

Smitty: You are looking at this disagreement, based on your code of ethics. Unfortunately, not all vendors live to the level of your code of ethics. Some short months back you sold some kits that were not of the plating you had advertised. Most of us who had purchased them may not have noticed. Yet, you posted a message about what had happened and voluntarily offered to refund all monies to anyone who was not satisfied with the actual plating. That is your Christian code of Ethics. How many of your BIG Corporate businesses would have done that? IMPO Not many! Thank you for being the man you are. Please allow us to learn of those who are not and do not live up to your personal qualities! I think most of us can read a jeer and decide if it's legitimate or if the respondant is just a beligerant and vengeful complainant.

Yea Yea Yea Yea!!!! Its Christmas don't get a stroke over it all

Nobody is having a stroke --- it is a calm rational discussion of a difference of opinion. The hope is to make the forum a better place for a specific kind of discussion...:redface:

 

[Smitty37]

Get apples and apples

We are talking here about a forum at a privately owned web site...your "rights" don't enter into the discussion because here - you and I have only the rights that the owner gives us. I said "cause"....

See Smitty, this isn't written in the rules and you aren't the rule maker here so up until now at least, I do have the right regardless of what you say.

I was commenting on me saying something "you don't have cause to do" to you implying I was challenging your "right" to do it. "Cause" and "right" are not synonyms. I never was saying "You can't do that" I was saying "You shouldn't do it".

 

[Smitty37]

I have no idea

Smitty: You are looking at this disagreement, based on your code of ethics. Unfortunately, not all vendors live to the level of your code of ethics. Some short months back you sold some kits that were not of the plating you had advertised. Most of us who had purchased them may not have noticed. Yet, you posted a message about what had happened and voluntarily offered to refund all monies to anyone who was not satisfied with the actual plating. That is your Christian code of Ethics. How many of your BIG Corporate businesses would have done that? IMPO Not many! Thank you for being the man you are. Please allow us to learn of those who are not and do not live up to your personal qualities! I think most of us can read a jeer and decide if it's legitimate or if the respondant is just a beligerant and vengeful complainant.

Yea Yea Yea Yea!!!! Its Christmas don't get a stroke over it all

Nobody is having a stroke --- it is a calm rational discussion of a difference of opinion. The hope is to make the forum a better place for a specific kind of discussion...:redface:

Joe I have no idea.....I am looking at it this way. It does not seem very fair to issue a jeer based on what my opinion of what a company policy should be rather than how they adhere to what their policy actually is.

I promise to ship the same or next business day from when an order is received. I can do that. There is a company that says if they get the order by a certain time they will ship same day. I wouldn't want to be dissed because someone else promises faster shipping.

 

[Smitty37]

Not sure I agree

You have no valid cause to "tell the world" that you do not like company A because company B has a better service [for instance] policy

I don't have the right to "tell the world"? Says who... you?

/sigh

I give up Smitty.. Every post should have to be approved by a committee of 10'000 members before it goes up in public.

I think we're straying off course here. The thread is about jeers.

You can certainly tell the world that you don't like company B because their policies are not as good as company A. That sort of thing is perfectly welcome at IAP. It's your opinion and you're free to state it. Casual conversation is the place for that.

However, the rules as written for Cheers & Jeers say; "...you must be commenting about products or services ordered within the previous 30 days."

If you buy from company A with the policies you don't like, that tells us that you decided to accept whatever substandard policies they have. If they met their obligation to you, to then jeer them because they are not as good as the other company seems a little unfair. If they didn't meet their obligations to you, expressed and implied (like not delivering broken stuff with no refunds!), and would not work it out, then that's a great time to play the jeer card.

While I would have no objection to someone saying in casual coversation that they don't like something about my company - I think I would protest if they compared my company to a competitor. I can only respond to comments about me and don't want to comment (good or bad) about my competitors except where I think they've done something they deserve kudo's for.

 

[Chatham PenWorks]

The C & J forum would be worthless, if it is moderated much beyond vulgarity and hearsay. If your jeer is based on first hand experience, then it should be allowed, and the readers should be responsible for weeding out the nonsense, whatever that means to them individually.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

And in the paragraph before the one you quoted, I told you that you can freely state your opinion and have a free exchange about vendor policies in Casual Conversation.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

Somehow I missed that, my apologies.

While I would have no objection to someone saying in casual coversation that they don't like something about my company - I think I would protest if they compared my company to a competitor. I can only respond to comments about me and don't want to comment (good or bad) about my competitors except where I think they've done something they deserve kudo's for.

And here comes the policing when this subject gets mentioned in casual conversation, not that anyone would complain about next day shipping.... now you are the one reducing to the absurd.

As for your argument about "Cause" vs. "Right". There is no basis for differentiating between the two in this case. What it boils down to is you telling me what I can and can't say... We just used different wording to use to express that.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

The C & J forum would be worthless, if it is moderated much beyond vulgarity and hearsay. If your jeer is based on first hand experience, then it should be allowed, and the readers should be responsible for weeding out the nonsense, whatever that means to them individually.

+1

How would I know that a certain company typically takes 5 days to ship (just using this for an example, not saying it's true about anybody) without having a few people saying that in the forum. I may have to order from them several time before I realize this is the norm and not a rare occurrence.

Now I think Jeff is saying this type of thing should be in causal conversation. This is just splitting hairs and personally think it should be with the rest of the vendor feedback in this section but whatever...

 

[alphageek]

And in the paragraph before the one you quoted, I told you that you can freely state your opinion and have a free exchange about vendor policies in Casual Conversation.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

Somehow I missed that, my apologies.

While I would have no objection to someone saying in casual coversation that they don't like something about my company - I think I would protest if they compared my company to a competitor. I can only respond to comments about me and don't want to comment (good or bad) about my competitors except where I think they've done something they deserve kudo's for.

And here comes the policing when this subject gets mentioned in casual conversation, not that anyone would complain about next day shipping.... now you are the one reducing to the absurd.

As for your argument about "Cause" vs. "Right". There is no basis for differentiating between the two in this case. What it boils down to is you telling me what I can and can't say... We just used different wording to use to express that.

There will NOT be "policing" on this topic in C&C. C&C like the rest of the site is moderated based on the rules in place. It doesn't matter is someone doesn't "want" it or not. Jeff's rules are written, and for the most part the only section with extra rules is The Marketplace. The rest of the site is rules by the AUP and ToS. If someone posts something, the moderators can only remove it if it breaks a rule.

Dean
Asst mod

 

[Smitty37]

Wrong

And in the paragraph before the one you quoted, I told you that you can freely state your opinion and have a free exchange about vendor policies in Casual Conversation.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

Somehow I missed that, my apologies.

While I would have no objection to someone saying in casual coversation that they don't like something about my company - I think I would protest if they compared my company to a competitor. I can only respond to comments about me and don't want to comment (good or bad) about my competitors except where I think they've done something they deserve kudo's for.

And here comes the policing when this subject gets mentioned in casual conversation, not that anyone would complain about next day shipping.... now you are the one reducing to the absurd.

As for your argument about "Cause" vs. "Right". There is no basis for differentiating between the two in this case. What it boils down to is you telling me what I can and can't say... We just used different wording to use to express that.

The point is made because vendors already have some rules others don't have when we respond to comments in other forums.

You are just wrong there - cause and right are not synonyms in any sense of the word, hence they are by definition differentiated. I could have used "reason" instead of "cause". Saying you have no reason to do something is NOT saying you can't do it.

 

[SCR0LL3R]

You are just wrong there - cause and right are not synonyms in any sense of the word, hence they are by definition differentiated. I could have used "reason" instead of "cause". Saying you have no reason to do something is NOT saying you can't do it.

I stand corrected, thank your for schooling me in the English language. What is the point in going back and forth on my choice of words... I explained to you my meaning. Give it up with the technicalities. This is my last comment on the matter.


Alphageek: I didn't mean to suggest that moderators would remove such comments from casual conversation. I was just stating back to Smitty that by his own admission he would want it to be policed in that forum as well.

 

[maxwell_smart007]

My apologies to the IAP for beginning this thread - I didn't expect it would turn into a shouting match. Just to recap - I wasn't saying you shouldn't post jeers - just that I don't like it when jeers are posted before every other avenue has been exhausted.

Since it has regressed into an angry back-and-forth between a handful of members, I'm going to close it.

Andrew
assistant mod