"Kitless" Kits

[IPD_Mr]

Mike - Thanks for the heads up on this and where it is/was heading. If George no longer wishes to do this, then I will get with him on his thoughts and try to proceed from there.

I fall into that category of tap and die impaired. I understand the concept and would look to a matched set like this as a jumping off point to get started with enough correct pieces to make a complete pen and then modify to my liking after I understand the mechanics and math around choosing the right drill bit and threading sizes.

Carl - This was what I though the whole idea was about. This can be done with basically two tap and die sets and a few drill bits to get peoples feet wet and understand and learn the basic priciples. Even the cap threads could be a single start to keep the cost down for those that want to try it. If they feel their endevours are worthwhile and want to switch to a triple start down the road then they would not be out a lot of money if they felt otherwise after trying.

As Mike mentioned we are at the Triangle pen show so it will be next week before we can get anything together if we go forward with this.

 

[Carl Fisher]

Yup, I was hoping that was the case and was partially addressing the feeling that making a kitless kit defeated the purpose. I think it actully kick starts the process without having to waste money on mis-matched parts to get started and even see if it's something that a turner wishes to continue with.

Thank you to those who are willing to help out like this!

 

[OKLAHOMAN]

George,Mike and Linda and I have been in contact with each other and it looks like one of us at least will be able to supply a TOOLING SET to you that will get you started on the road to component-less pens.

 

[Andrew_K99]

I think this is a great idea based on Georges vision of a sole source for kitless tooling.

The only problem I can see is figuring out where to stop. Supplying just the taps, dies and drill bits doesn't fit the bill IMO as owning these isn't enough. You also need a means to hold the taps (tap guide) and dies (die holder) both of which I've only found in MT2. Then you need a means to hold the pieces on the lathe, a collet chuck or maybe a regular chuck.

Bottom line? You need a lot of tooling to go 'kitless', a sole for all this tooling may not be practical.

A well thought out list of essentials, in one location, would be a FANTASTIC start!

AK

 

[Texatdurango]

OK, Here's the deal............ After receiving a reply from one tooling company on possible discounts, I found that they were not capable of supplying 20 ea of the bits, taps and dies I had envisioned so I decided this was not going to be an easy task, especially for one like me who is on the verge of flitting about the country for our summer trip.

It looks like others thought this is a good idea too and have stepped up to make it happen and actually, these guys have the experience and contacts to probably do a better job than I ever could so hold tight, the cavalry is on it's way!

In keeping with the theme and purpose of this thread, there are still a few things to be worked out. My original intent was to make it easy for one wanting to venture into kitless pen making by making some of the essentials available at one source, thus saving members from having to shop all over the web, paying WAY too much in shipping at half a dozen companies.

That said, some folks already have tap handles, some even have die holders and some have a decent assortment of drill bits BUT.... some don't have anything yet so the thinking is to create a few levels of tool sets like "just the basic stuff", "just about all you'll need" to "everything but the kitchen sink (which is an option by the way).

I'm sorta out of the loop now and will slip over on the sidelines but I want to say a few things that are bugging me.

The way I see it, if you like the idea of buying a handful of tools at one place knowing exactly how the tools will be used and how they interact with each other then speak up, which several already have BUT..... if you don't like the idea then just don't respond, this thread is to gather information and gauge interest from those interested in the idea.

If you have some radically different ideas of how we forum members should try to work together to help each other (or to NOT help each other) for some reason, then start your own thread and hash it out or bash whatever floats your boat rather than trash up this thread.

The notion that it takes a ton of money to "go kitless" is absurd and I don't understand why some are so intent on squashing the creativity of others by telling them they need a small fortune to make their own pens from scratch or that they are so difficult to make! I made my first kitless pens a year after starting to make pens, way before buying my metal lathe and still do 76.325813% of my pens on my Jet mini lathe with most of the same tools I used for kit pens!

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! :tongue:

 

[InvisibleMan]

OK, Here's the deal............ After receiving a reply from one tooling company on possible discounts, I found that they were not capable of supplying 20 ea of the bits, taps and dies I had envisioned so I decided this was not going to be an easy task, especially for one like me who is on the verge of flitting about the country for our summer trip.

It looks like others thought this is a good idea too and have stepped up to make it happen and actually, these guys have the experience and contacts to probably do a better job than I ever could so hold tight, the cavalry is on it's way!

In keeping with the theme and purpose of this thread, there are still a few things to be worked out. My original intent was to make it easy for one wanting to venture into kitless pen making by making some of the essentials available at one source, thus saving members from having to shop all over the web, paying WAY too much in shipping at half a dozen companies.

That said, some folks already have tap handles, some even have die holders and some have a decent assortment of drill bits BUT.... some don't have anything yet so the thinking is to create a few levels of tool sets like "just the basic stuff", "just about all you'll need" to "everything but the kitchen sink (which is an option by the way).

I'm sorta out of the loop now and will slip over on the sidelines but I want to say a few things that are bugging me.

The way I see it, if you like the idea of buying a handful of tools at one place knowing exactly how the tools will be used and how they interact with each other then speak up, which several already have BUT..... if you don't like the idea then just don't respond, this thread is to gather information and gauge interest from those interested in the idea.

If you have some radically different ideas of how we forum members should try to work together to help each other (or to NOT help each other) for some reason, then start your own thread and hash it out or bash whatever floats your boat rather than trash up this thread.

The notion that it takes a ton of money to "go kitless" is absurd and I don't understand why some are so intent on squashing the creativity of others by telling them they need a small fortune to make their own pens from scratch or that they are so difficult to make! I made my first kitless pens a year after starting to make pens, way before buying my metal lathe and still do 76.325813% of my pens on my Jet mini lathe with most of the same tools I used for kit pens!

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! :tongue:

George, kudos to you for starting this thing off! If a kitless kit of tools comes together, it will be of huge value to the community.

 

[TerryDowning]

I like the idea of just "the basic stuff" I don't have the metrics taps, dies and drill bits and really can't justify the cost of buying an entire set of metric drill bits.

I have the tap handles, die holders, etc. I just need to round out what I have to take my pen making to take it the next level.

Of course final interest would depend on the final prices determined for the sale. If too expensive, I'll just continue to "make do".

just my 2 pennies. Overall this is a fantastic idea and I'm glad to see some traction on it.

 

[lorbay]

OK, Here's the deal............ After receiving a reply from one tooling company on possible discounts, I found that they were not capable of supplying 20 ea of the bits, taps and dies I had envisioned so I decided this was not going to be an easy task, especially for one like me who is on the verge of flitting about the country for our summer trip.

It looks like others thought this is a good idea too and have stepped up to make it happen and actually, these guys have the experience and contacts to probably do a better job than I ever could so hold tight, the cavalry is on it's way!

In keeping with the theme and purpose of this thread, there are still a few things to be worked out. My original intent was to make it easy for one wanting to venture into kitless pen making by making some of the essentials available at one source, thus saving members from having to shop all over the web, paying WAY too much in shipping at half a dozen companies.

That said, some folks already have tap handles, some even have die holders and some have a decent assortment of drill bits BUT.... some don't have anything yet so the thinking is to create a few levels of tool sets like "just the basic stuff", "just about all you'll need" to "everything but the kitchen sink (which is an option by the way).

I'm sorta out of the loop now and will slip over on the sidelines but I want to say a few things that are bugging me.

The way I see it, if you like the idea of buying a handful of tools at one place knowing exactly how the tools will be used and how they interact with each other then speak up, which several already have BUT..... if you don't like the idea then just don't respond, this thread is to gather information and gauge interest from those interested in the idea.

If you have some radically different ideas of how we forum members should try to work together to help each other (or to NOT help each other) for some reason, then start your own thread and hash it out or bash whatever floats your boat rather than trash up this thread.

The notion that it takes a ton of money to "go kitless" is absurd and I don't understand why some are so intent on squashing the creativity of others by telling them they need a small fortune to make their own pens from scratch or that they are so difficult to make! I made my first kitless pens a year after starting to make pens, way before buying my metal lathe and still do 76.325813% of my pens on my Jet mini lathe with most of the same tools I used for kit pens!

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it! :tongue:

George, kudos to you for starting this thing off! If a kitless kit of tools comes together, it will be of huge value to the community.

I 2nd that.

Lin.

 

[mredburn]

It would be very easy to set up a beginers kit with different levels of hardware. As well as doing it ala cart for those that already have some of the items in the kit.

 

[Carl Fisher]

I'd be in for matched sets of taps/dies/drill bits and whatever is needed to actually hold them (die holder, tap handle)

 

[RetiredJake]

I'd be in for matched sets of taps/dies/drill bits and whatever is needed to actually hold them (die holder, tap handle)

Same for me.

 

[dbledsoe]

I'd be in for matched sets of taps/dies/drill bits and whatever is needed to actually hold them (die holder, tap handle)

Me, too.
Dave Bledsoe

 

[carbon1]

Count me in too ...

I really like the original idea of a 'kitless kit' which has now evolved to several levels, depending on need. I have been ready to begin the journey into kitless pens for about 6 months and am now ready to start and this would be a terrific place for me to begin! Guys with experience here: Please, put something together. And count me in.

Bill
Rochester, Minnesota

 

[bitshird]

George, I have a triple lead tap and Die12mm? and one feed tap I believe it's for the old Heritance feeds, but I'll be darned, I've wanted to do a pen and have had the taps for over a year, I do need the drills, and would be interested in getting the right drills and a tap for the Bach a 5 and 6 size nibs, so put me down since all I would have extra is a tap for Lou's size 5 (still don't have a drill for that) count me in.

 

[scoobiehome]

I'm interested. Would love to attempt kitless pens, but am a novice!

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I think the tool kit should be very basic to keep cost down. Just wondering what would most people be willing to pay for this? I'm working on round 2 of kitless pen it is amazing how little you really need to go kitless. It would be nice to not have to waste a lot of money buying a lot of tools that you won't need. I do think this is a good idea because it would save people money.

 

[alinc100]

I too would be interested in a "starter" set of tooling for kitless pens.in fact I found this thread while trying to find another of George's threads that began to layout some of the steps,sizes,parts to how he makes his kitless pens.
I don't have boatload of cash to throw at this but like the idea of a one stop shopping trip.
Like George had stated one can tie up a lot in shipping costs that could purchase tooling if it was done efficiently.
It appears I am on a construction project that should have a good run so I try to stock up for when the lean times hit and I actually have more time to make pens.
Thanks to All involved for this idea/project.I realize it is a lot of work.I know for sure I can benefit from your willingness to share.

 

[beck3906]

If the idea of a kit of parts is too expensive, what about creating a list with the various sizes of taps, dies, drill bits, etc that are needed for each piece? The list could include suggested suppliers for us to go after.

The list could be genereated and maintained much like the list for tube sizes/kit components.

I would just like to have a consolidated list of the things that work. I can order my own parts if I know what works.

I know I can research prior posts and find much of the onformation, but we ask the same questions numbers of times. Why not make it easy for those joining in the future?

 

[Timebandit]

If the idea of a kit of parts is too expensive, what about creating a list with the various sizes of taps, dies, drill bits, etc that are needed for each piece? The list could include suggested suppliers for us to go after.

The list could be genereated and maintained much like the list for tube sizes/kit components.

I would just like to have a consolidated list of the things that work. I can order my own parts if I know what works.

I know I can research prior posts and find much of the onformation, but we ask the same questions numbers of times. Why not make it easy for those joining in the future?

It has already been done. Not sure who did it, but there is already a list out there, might even be in the library already. The problem is that no one knows where to look for it or no one wants to look for this stuff, so they just post a new thread asking. Maybe there could be a sticky in the Advanced Pen forum with a link to it.

Edit: Here you go http://www.penturners.org/forum/f56/tap-die-threading-sizes-etc-91861/

It needs a little work, but here is a beginning. Just need some more input in it.

 

[Texatdurango]

If the idea of a kit of parts is too expensive, what about creating a list with the various sizes of taps, dies, drill bits, etc that are needed for each piece? The list could include suggested suppliers for us to go after.

The list could be genereated and maintained much like the list for tube sizes/kit components.

I would just like to have a consolidated list of the things that work. I can order my own parts if I know what works.

I know I can research prior posts and find much of the onformation, but we ask the same questions numbers of times. Why not make it easy for those joining in the future?

Rick, I'll give my replies to a few of your comments. Don't get upset over the answers, they are general in nature, meant for all those folks asking the questions and not directed at you.

"I know I can research prior posts, but" I see the word "Research" all the time and think it sounds like a LOT of work, when it really isn't. Just spend an hour reading through some of the posts in the advanced pen making forum on threading and kitless construction. Also, recently when members put up a "kitless" pen in the SOYP forum several are starting to add a few details like taps and drills used as well as other dimensions. Read these posts and jot down notes. I'm all about helping others and Lord knows I do my share but look at my side as an example. I spend hours a week answering PM's, many of which are asking the same questions over and over. I don't know about others but if I can spend several hours a week answering PM's, then y'all (the ones with the questions) can invest an hour or two yourselves of easy reading!

"we ask the same questions numbers of times" That's just it, the SAME questions are being asked over and over and over, which tells me no one is taking the time to read through any of the threads. I don't know about others but I've come to the point where if I read a thread that starts out ...... "What drill do I use for the 9mm x .75mm tap", I click out of the thread when I reach that far because that question has been answered hundreds of times in the past few months.

If you are interested in advancing your penmaking adventure, then spend some time reading what others are doing. In my tutorials I deliberately leave out some detailed measurements and sizes. My thinking was that it gets the pen maker to stop and think and teach himself as he goes along thus learning, and YES, there WILL be som trial and error but that's part of the adventure. But, based on the number of PM's I get starting out like... "I just read one of your tutorials, But...", I am beginning to think that hardly anyone wants to invest any time whatsoever.

"Why not make it easy for those joining in the future?" May I read into that.... why not make it easy for us? :biggrin: You think you have it bad, I started making these things four years ago and believe me, other than Bruce Robbins, Bruce Boone and a couple others there was no one to ask anything.

Anything worthwhile is worth putting some effort into.

Just my opinion...........

 

[beck3906]

I have no problems with the responses to my questions.

I often play "dumb" and ask questions probably thought by dozens of folks who are afraid to ask. These questions linger in many different forms in people's minds.

Sure, I can research the questions and find what I need to know. But I also get frustrated when the search results show dozens of threads that have some form of the search word with no bearing on what I want to know. I experience this same frustration on my permanent job when told to search our on-line help for the problem before asking help from a programmer. I learned something in Boy Scout Leader training about using your resources. There are thousands of resources here to pulll from.

Can I spend hours reviewing previous threads for the help? Yes, I can. Would those hours be better spent if I can get you to search for me? Yes, they would. :biggrin:

BTW....
Thanks Timebandit for the message link. I had forgotten that thread. Sometimes it helps getting things in front of folks again. You're right in that the thread could be a sticky.

 

[MrWright]

Put me down on your first list of "Kitless Kits"

 

[Bowl Slinger]

Im interested.

 

[InvisibleMan]

deleted - sorry!

 

[Dalecamino]

Did I miss something? I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I KNOW it started out as a Market Research by George, then I saw Gilrock posted a list of tools he uses, then, Mike & Linda were going to take over upon there return home from a pen show. And now there's a link to InvisibleMans thread, showing what tools he uses for kitless pens.

I think I'll wait to see what Mike & Linda come up with, if George has decided to hand it over. It just makes sense to me, to get everything in one place.

 

[Texatdurango]

Did I miss something? I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I KNOW it started out as a Market Research by George, then I saw Gilrock posted a list of tools he uses, then, Mike & Linda were going to take over upon there return home from a pen show. And now there's a link to InvisibleMans thread, showing what tools he uses for kitless pens.

I think I'll wait to see what Mike & Linda come up with, if George has decided to hand it over. It just makes sense to me, to get everything in one place.

George has already decided to see what Mike and Linda can come up with to satisfy the needs of those venturing into designing and making their own pens.

I've noticed that several have posted saying something similar to...."here is what I used to make THIS pen" and while I can appreciate the thought, I think they are missing part of the point to offering a tool set.

Having the four or five bits and two or three taps required to make one pen is fine if you want to make that same pen over and over again just changing the blank material but......... What happens when you decide to make a little larger pen or try a different size nib and section or try your hand at a nice bulb filler, button filler or lever filler for a change, then what? You'll start searching all over again for the one or two different taps you'll need at the time then hope you have the proper drill bits for those taps then you get to start ordering bits and pieces all over again paying $11.95 postage here and $15 postage there and before you know it, you're out another $50 in postage alone just buying small tools!

There is a lot more involved than just having the tools to do just one pen! When a friend wanted to start turning pens did you show him the smashing Jr Gent rollerball you made and tell hem that all he needed to turn pens was two drill bits and one set of bushings? Going kitless is similar, there will be different tools required, similar to having a collection of bushings, one for each kit you make.

 

[trapper]

I agree with ll that Texatdurango says. I have just begun doing kitless pens ranging from those based on cross refils and twists to rollerballs incorporating throwingdart bodies and rollerball and fountain pens. I have now started doing my own nib carriers etc in aluminium........ its along learning curve.......... first lesson is the tooling needed varies infinitely with infinite designs when i get good enough i'll post some pics

 

[Gilrock]

Well I know when I started it took a lot of research on here to figure out what to get just to make one. If you can supply a starter kit that can make more than one and keep the entry cost down then go for it. At least someone else starting out can look at my earlier post and already be further ahead of the game than I was.

 

[crabcreekind]

remember for dies, people need to get a die holder.

 

[dogcatcher]

One stop shopping is worth it, the shipping charges for all of the places can be a killer.

 

[Katya]

Count me in too! I'd love to go kitless but don't know exactly where to start. Don't have any tap or die experience. I'd be interested in the whole kit with some instructions, but I don't see that as stifling my creativity.. just helping me to get started.
Cheers
Catherine

 

[earl smith]

Yes, I am very interested and also would like to have a ballpark of the costs

 

[mredburn]

Cost? As Carl Sagan would say "Billions and Billions"

 

[keithbyrd]

this thread was started almost a month ago and has 4 pages of comments - I for one (second post) am very interested in this starter package that George described. George is this still something you are doing or has it been handed off? Are Mike and Linda doing it? Don't mean to be too pushy but I am anxious to jump into this area and don't want to waste a lot of money and time on a learning curve if I can avoid it!!

 

[Timebandit]

this thread was started almost a month ago and has 4 pages of comments - I for one (second post) am very interested in this starter package that George described. George is this still something you are doing or has it been handed off? Are Mike and Linda doing it? Don't mean to be too pushy but I am anxious to jump into this area and don't want to waste a lot of money and time on a learning curve if I can avoid it!!

Keith, i dont think this thread was intended to lessen the learning curve. I beleive the purpose of this thread was just to save a few bucks on shipping charges. This wont tell you how to make a pen or what to do and what not to do.......if your ready now, you can get started now.....only gonna lose a few bucks on shipping charges....

 

[SteveG]

I too am about to plunge into the "subvortex" of kitless. If there is anyone about to grab the reins on this project, I (and a good number of others, as shown by interest in this thread) would be most appreciative. Either way, I am in, as I have just thrown away my vast collection of kits. (Well, maybe not on that throw away thing...)
Steve

 

[Marker]

I would buy a kitless kit.

 

[leehljp]

IF it is not too late, I would be interested in purchasing a basic set of what ever most decide upon. I have a couple of tap and die sets already but not die holder. I have purchased over the years just waiting to get back home and get started in this very thing. I am home now but I am still a year away from getting started with kitless. Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

I missed this thread somehow, but I was traveling quite a bit in late May and early June.

 

[jzerger]

I'm interested in attempting kitless so would be very interested in a "starter set". Until 15 months ago I didn't know what a lathe was or that you could make a pen. If it hadn't been for PSI having a "starter set" including lathe, tools, kits, sandpaper, finish, everything I needed to start I would've never attempted to try to piece together from reading what others say I need and getting them one piece at a time all over the place and hope I have it all. Lazy? maybe... starting from zero knowledge (i.e. zero confidence in a new venture) and not willing to invest much money in a possible failed venture is not an easy thing for me to do. Since then, I've evolved into a believer in CA finishing wood and made numerous pens from numerous materials and spent a few thousand dollars on additional (pricier...up to $30 kits) and tools from numerous vendors mostly based on advice here. Until I felt like I achieved some success (my standards) with the (for a lot of you) basics I then and only then started thinking about what ELSE can I do..."knots", inlay, modified kits, segmented, other materials, etc. that I have gleaned from this group.

Is all the information already out there? ...of course.
Euclid, Newton, Gauss, Leibniz, Galois, etc. wrote down hundreds (even thousands) of years ago most of what I teach students. I made most every mistake when I was learning and try to shorten the learning curve for my students so they can spend time thinking about what ELSE can we do.

Those of us who haven't been here for very long don't KNOW what's already been tried, done, perfected and so often ask seemingly stupid questions that have been asked (and answered) dozens of times before.
Believe it or not, it isn't always laziness that causes people to ask questions already been discussed ad nauseum previously. And we all DO appreciate very much the kind (non-condescending) answers, links, references, given to us. PSI still gets a lot of business (I'm guessing) due to "starter sets". The first "kitless kit" will be a seller...can't wait.

 

[IPD_Mr]

I have looked this over from several different angles. The idea is for a starter tool set to get the average turner the tools needed to go kitless.

Here in lies the problem: What kind of kitless. Some have no desire to make fountain pens but would like to make rollerballs. This requires a major change in drill bits. The other part is going to be the cap threads. To keep things cheap you would want to start with single start threading. The closest size to the thriple start standard size cap threads is the M12 x .75. The other issue is drill bits. If I do this the bits will be Norseman if I can get the right size. Norseman are not cheap bits. So now I am at a crossroads. Do we want to do this right or are we just trying to do this cheap and dirty? One other issue is getting the popular M9 x .75 tap and die sets. I run through four sources and buy everything they have in stock every thirty days or so. That generally gets me about 4 sets a month to work with for the cheaper sets.

So what does everyone want to do, Cheap and Dirty, The Right way or Something Different?