Craft Coat (CC) - A new water-based finishing product

[Crashmph]

I thought I saw that call coat was an oil base while craft coat was a water base. Maybe I misread somewhere?

Hi Carl,

Craft Coat and Call Coat are exactly same product. When Rick, the owner, created the name Call Coat, he was only thinking of game calls. He never was exposed to the possibilities of its uses with other products like the pens and things we make on lathes. Rick has since re-branded Call Coat to Craft Coat and Call Coat will phase out over time.

If you do find a reference to show Call Coat is an oil based product, please forward me the linking information so that we may get it corrected.

Thank you,
Michael

EDIT: To be technically correct, Call Coat and Craft Coat are "an oil-modified water-based urethane".

 

[Nellieteach]

My CC just arrived in the last half hour too.
Thanks Michael. Will be using it over the next few days and posting my thoughts/results.
Nadine

 

[Carl Fisher]

Sorry, I think I was misreading this line from the product page:

"Call-Coat is a clear, self-leveling oil modified waterborne urethane"

My fault :biggrin:

I did receive mine today. I should be able to play with it some tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[Crashmph]

Look out folks!!! CC is in the wild! Have fun with it! :biggrin::biggrin:

I am pretty sure most of us on IAP are anxiously waiting to see your results.

 

[The Penguin]

Mine arrived today...hopefully have some time to use it this weekend!

 

[Crashmph]

Eco Advance has some customer pictures of duck calls finished with CC on Facebook. Here are some of the pictures from the duck calls. These calls were dipped rather than friction finishing like most of us pen turners do. And just for the record... these calls have the CC covering the Metal bands too!

 

[MarkD]

Mine arrived yesterday

 

[Crashmph]

Attempt to quell any confusion

Hi all,

There have been some questions about a water-based finish being used on pens and things. This post is only an attempt to quell any confusion about a water-based solvent.

You have to have a "solvent" or dispersing mechanism for the URETHANE and our "solvent" is water. Thinking that you're basically MIXING plain water with the Linseed Oil and putting it on the wood which could undoubtedly have negative effects. Our product contains a very small amount of water, furthermore, the process we use creates a molecular bond in which the oil molecules wrap themselves around the water-based URETHANE droplets (which are the delivery mechanism). The small amount of water is essentially evaporated when it dries. Our product actually does less to "swell" the wood than a solvent based product and no more than CA because of its quick dry and cure times. Wood coated with Craft Coat is 78% cured within the first 20 hours and there is no "outgasing" like with other finishes . . . including CA. Our product gives you the benefits of an oil-based (OMU) and water-based urethane.

Companies like Sherwin-Williams, Behr, and many others are using water-based coatings, primers, and paints for METAL and wood. As a matter of fact, water-based coatings will raise the grain of the wood giving you a much nicer finish. The notion that "Water-based" is inferior is shared among those who really aren't familiar with the modern advancements in coatings technologies and nano-technology.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

 

[Crashmph]

Money Back Guarantee

FYI... Eco Advance will offer a full money back guarantee (less shipping charges) for any customers dissatisfied with CC.

It looks like I failed to mention these details before, and I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of the guarantee policy of Eco Advance.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[Carl Fisher]

Itching to try it but it's been way too cold in the shop the last few nights. Supposed to warm up this weekend and I'll be able to get out there and do some testing.

 

[Crashmph]

I know the feeling. If it were not for my propane heater I would not even make it to the shop.

Itching to try it but it's been way too cold in the shop the last few nights. Supposed to warm up this weekend and I'll be able to get out there and do some testing.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Got mine yesterday and gave it a try. I had pretty much stopped using wood for pens because I wanted high gloss (with the superior grain detail / glow of an oil finish), a quick finish and I didn't want to deal with CA/BLO anymore. CC seems like it has potential, but I haven't been able to get the results I'm looking for yet (after only one afternoon's trial). Here's my thoughts after a couple of hours yesterday:

1) On closed grain wood it takes about 10 minutes to get a really high gloss finish on a pen blank sized piece of wood. Most of that time is waiting time, but not enough time to do other things while you wait. 10 seconds application followed by 50 seconds of waiting...repeat 8 to 10 times.

2) On open grain wood, CC will not fill open grain. I do not like high gloss finishes over unfilled grain where the unfilled grain (or other things that lead to a less than flawless gloss finish (e.g. tear out, tool marks, sanding marks...)) leave a "broken" plastic looking finish. With CA, it was easy to QUICKLY fill open grain in a number of different ways. While there are many ways to fill grain before application of CC, none of them are as quick as CA. Sanding in the first coat of CC is not a good way to fill grain (unless maybe you wait a whole lot longer than I did before the second coat). I intend to play around with this some more to see if I can find a way to speed up the grain filling process.

3) I like the way wood grain "pops" with the application of an oil finish (e.g. BLO / CA). I also like the ambering an oil finish gives to lighter colored woods. CC doesn't "pop" the grain. On light woods, it doesn't show anywhere near the ambering of a BLO/CA finish. CC on lighter woods look lifeless and pale to me. It looks pretty good on darker woods, especially those that usually really (over) darken up with oil.

Trying to get a better look on lighter wood, I gave a blank a quick friction application of BLO. Then applied the CC. The CC did not adhere well to the BLO treated blank (their instructions clearly state the blank must be clean with no oils or such, but I had to try anyway). CC did adhere well to oily wood (teak and rosewoods) that were wiped with DNA before application.

Application of shellac as a base coat is pretty common with water based finishes. I did a few trials with shellac, and it seems like it might be able to significantly improve the look of CC with lighter woods (in my opinion anyway). I also have some "ambering" dyes that I used when I sprayed my turnings with water based lacquer. I plan to test those with the CC as well to see if I can get closer to the look I want in lighter woods. I'm optimistic.

4) I didn't detect any smell with CC. I didn't have any noticeable reaction after working with it for a couple of hours. I did read the MSDS which sounded dire in places, but no worse than most of the other finishing products (and resins) that I work with every day.

I wasn't happy enough with any of the test blanks to spend time taking pictures. I turned off the finishes to get them ready for the next round of testing.

More results later....

Ed

 

[Crashmph]

2) On open grain wood, CC will not fill open grain. I do not like high gloss finishes over unfilled grain where the unfilled grain (or other things that lead to a less than flawless gloss finish (e.g. tear out, tool marks, sanding marks...)) leave a "broken" plastic looking finish. With CA, it was easy to QUICKLY fill open grain in a number of different ways. While there are many ways to fill grain before application of CC, none of them are as quick as CA. Sanding in the first coat of CC is not a good way to fill grain (unless maybe you wait a whole lot longer than I did before the second coat). I intend to play around with this some more to see if I can find a way to speed up the grain filling process.

Hi Ed,

Thank you very much for the information. My experience has been much the same with regard to your second point. I have mitigated the "broken" plastic effect by wet-sanding with Mylands Friction Polish at the 220-grit stage of sanding.

I have been using this method of sanding on all of my open grained woods and any burls that could use some pit hole filling. I then just sand the blank like I normally do for a smooth finish. My process is then followed up with the CC finish. YMMV, but this has worked well for me.

 

[Nellieteach]

Try #1
Note: I had to smile when I looked at parklandturner's comments and here I had just come from my shop having tried an open grained, light colored wood and he had posted his thoughts which were my findings too.

Update on my first attempt at using CC…I worked on a white oak modified slim line today. I never, in 15 years of turning, used white or red oak of any kind for a pen but I am being asked to make pens for a nearby university and they need to be out of white oak because their school song has "white oak" in the song and there are white oaks on campus. I am supposed to use wood from the trees they cut down on campus. So I thought I would try out the CC. Definitely agree with parklandturner, without some dye or stain, and grain filling CC isn't going to be my choice of finish for white oak. White oak, as we know, is very light colored and the grain needs to pop, CC didn't do that by itself.

I will be removing the CC from the oak, using some BLO on the oak, then CA and then buffing it to show the university.

My CC trial is continuing…I have an elm burl and a resin/banksia pod waiting for me…will report on them next as far as my finishing with CC.

I noticed very little odor with the CC and applying it is very easy. No problems. I have used Enduro (now a General finish) over the years and this reminds me of using it in a lot of ways.

No picture of the oak…not taking a photo of something that needs tweaking and really nothing good or bad to see…just white oak, very unimpressive white oak.
Off to my shop to try again with CC.

Nadine

 

[edstreet]

To all those who are testing this product it would help greatly if someone gave it the washing machine test and perhaps dryer test as well. No that was not a joke, sarcasm or the like and I am dead serious.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

To all those who are testing this product it would help greatly if someone gave it the washing machine test and perhaps dryer test as well. No that was not a joke, sarcasm or the like and I am dead serious.

I'll do it Ed.

 

[William Menard]

Black Alligator Jawbone with Copper flakes, used craft coat, 3 coats...... Im satisfied. 3 coats 5 minutes apart and let dry 2 hours, then polished up with acrylic polish.

 

[Crashmph]

Eco Advance has some customer pictures of duck calls finished with CC on Facebook. Here are some of the pictures from the duck calls. These calls were dipped rather than friction finishing like most of us pen turners do. And just for the record... these calls have the CC covering the Metal bands too!

View attachment 108405 View attachment 108406

Hi All,

I was just informed this morning that this Call had been thrown in the air and allowed to impact the concrete, was submerged in water for 24 hours, and was doused with insect repellent. This was done all in an effort to simulate a duck hunting expedition.



Michael

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Presumably that's the "after" picture? :biggrin:


Ed

 

[Crashmph]

Presumably that's the "after" picture? :biggrin:

Ed

You are correct Ed. Thanks for clearing that up as I neglected to even mention it. Blaming lack of coffee this morning.

Additionally, in all fairness and full disclosure, that call was dipped rather than friction polished with CC.

Michael

 

[edstreet]

have a before image because I am having a hard time finding the scuff mark where it impacted the concrete.

 

[Crashmph]

have a before image because I am having a hard time finding the scuff mark where it impacted the concrete.

Hi Ed,

I have no other images as this was the only one sent in by a customer. I agree about the not seeing a scuff mark comment for sure, but I do not have any other images to compare for before and after, only the after.

Michael

 

[edstreet]

I was actually thinking the photo's were before shots for some reason.

 

[Crashmph]

I was actually thinking the photo's were before shots for some reason.

We thought the same until the customer informed us that it had been under water for 24 hours and then he sprayed denatured alcohol on it. The finish looks to have held up its end of the bargain for sure.

Michael

 

[Crashmph]

Here is the actual review for the cocobolo call tested with CC

Here is the actual review mentioned in earlier posts. These comments and pictures were provided by a customer of ours. I was able to find a second "after pic" to add to the collection. I corrected an earlier post referring to insect repellent. I was confusing reviews from customers.

"Ok Guys here are 2 more pics of some cocobolo. This call doesn't have any sanding sealer on it at all. The finish is complete solid and is not gummy.

I have also done a drop test from eye level (= 5'6") on the concrete floor in my shop and it didnt chip or crack. I then tossed it up in the aid and let it drop on the concrete. This time it dented the flared part on the call below the band and he a very small chip that you couldn't hardly notice.

2nd test was I wiped denatured alcohol on it. it took the shinny look off the call and was a little gummy for about 10 seconds and then it hardened right back up. I was able to take the call and put it on the lathe and applied Novus #2 and it polished right back up."

 

[Carl Fisher]

For the open grain issue, I don't have any on hand to test but what about using a paste grain filler (Bartley, Constantines, etc...)

You could even follow a standard flat stock process of shelac, grain filler, top coat which in this case would be CC. It might be an extra step, but it would level out the wood to allow CC to give you a smooth even coating like CA would.

 

[Crashmph]

For the open grain issue, I don't have any on hand to test but what about using a paste grain filler (Bartley, Constantines, etc...)

You could even follow a standard flat stock process of shelac, grain filler, top coat which in this case would be CC. It might be an extra step, but it would level out the wood to allow CC to give you a smooth even coating like CA would.

I don't see why that would not work. Excellent idea.

For me, on open grain wood, I wet sand with 220 and Mylands friction polish to fill in the grain with a sand dust and wax polish slurry. Then sand and finish as normal. This process gives me a glass shine with out the "broken" plastic look that some have reported.

Michael

 

[Carl Fisher]

I haven't seen the sheet on Mylands, but most friction polishes are shellac based. Essentially you're making a slurry of shellac and sanding dust which becomes a grain filler so it sounds like both concepts are similar.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Hi Carl - Grain fillers (water and solvent based, fiber and clear) have worked fine with the CC for me in my recent testing. But they do take extra time to allow the grain filler to fully cure before moving on to the CC. As compared to most finishes, the extra time waiting is nothing unusual. But in comparing CC to CA, spending extra time waiting for the grain filling step is not going to be a big selling point to a production pen turner who wants an alternative to a CA finish.

I don't have any friction polish around, but I had tried sanding with shellac to fill the grain before CC. My first attempt didn't quite get it, but I suspect user error on my part. I tried to sand in dust from a different kind of wood (I like the contrast I can get with this) and I goofed somwhere along the way.

I haven't had time to try shellac again, but I think it will work and it will be quick. I don't think I would rely on friction polish under the CC because of the wax, but I may just be overly cautious about that.

Ed

 

[MarkD]

I finally got a change to give this product a try. I turned some nice Red Cedar. I applied 5-6 coats of CC waiting about a minute between coats. I experienced no oder when using the product. The first thing I noticed is that the colors in the Red Cedar did not POP as they typically do with CA. I let the blank sit for an hour or so and then used micro mesh followed by plastic polish and buffing. The product provided a nice soft finish but not the high gloss of CA.

Hope to try more in the near future.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

I gave it a quick try the other day. Application is very easy.

I need to keep experimenting though. I want more shine than I got on the first try.

 

[LanceD]

I've just started turning a rod (fishing) handle out of BOW today and will try to have it completed in a day or two. Been feeling a little feverish and achy today and hope it's just a cold and not something worse. Can't wait to give the stuff a try.

 

[lorbay]

Well I finally got my CC and have now given it a try. 1st impressions not good.
I was OK to apply not as fast as CA, I liked the low or hardly any odor.
But as others have said it does not pop the grain like CA as with most if not all water bourn finishes it does not have the richness of the non water bourn products.
The 1st two pictures are CA 8 coats and the 2nd two pictures are CC 12 coats.
I could not start my finishing on the CC after the 12 coats as it was too soft and had to wait overnight.
I am now doing a dipping method but this will take a little more time to get the coats on.
Oh just another FYI don't try to use plastic polish on it.DAMHIKT.

Lin.

 

[alankulwicki7]

I used CC on a few pens last week. Here's my review on CC:

I applied it very similar to my CA method with the exception of using BLO to pop the grain some.
I used 10-12 coats while turning on the lathe, waiting about a minute between coats. Once dry, I lightly sanded with 600 to smooth it out. After that I did 9 steps of Micromesh and a final polish with Novus 2.
Some of the pluses were easy clean-up, no fumes and no sticky fingers.

Since I just finished the pens, I can't comment on the durability.

The one thing I couldn't achieve was a super glossy finish. While the finish seemed to be clear of defects, I couldn't get the shine like CA. That won't stop my from using it but I'll just have to decide whether I want a semi gloss finish or a shiny finish.
I do plan on using CC on some stoppers and ornaments in the near future so I'm excited to see how it works on those items....

 

[Crashmph]

I do plan on using CC on some stoppers and ornaments in the near future so I'm excited to see how it works on those items....

Thank you for your review. Past experience with stoppers and ornaments have shown me that the dipping method worked very well.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

I've only done a few with cc so far but hope do do several more and write some more in depth.

I suspect that we will come up with some consensus on the product.

Everyone seems to agree that the product is very easy to apply.

It feels great.

Getting the high shine is the question mark. I'm wondering if buffing wheels may be the factor there.

I haven't broken mine out yet, but will this week in the testing process.

I found plastic polish to dull the finish.

I used eee paste wax on the last one and got a good satin / slight gloss.

By the way, I used the suggestion of using some mylands while sanding on open grain wood. Works good. I'll share more on this later.

Have any of the other testers used buffing wheels yet?

 

[Crashmph]

Since it has been rather cold in my shop recently... stupid winter... I have been experimenting with alternative methods of finishing with CC.

Here is what I have tried and seems to work out well for me, but takes a tad longer to do...

• With the blank on the lathe or off, does not matter. Using a paper towel or small piece of cotton cloth (I usually have 3" squares stacked up of the stuff) wipe on a thin layer of CC lengthwise of the blank. (I have been doing it off the lathe and in side the house since it has been cold) If you are doing this off the lathe, I cannot stress enough THIN layers.
• Allow it to dry. Drying times vary depending on temperature. In the winter, I have been doing this in the house since there is almost no smell, and the drying times are faster inside the house too. I usually do this when I have several pens to do, and it is less time outside in the much colder shop. I have usually done this with 20-30 or more pen single sections, (30 wall street II, 15 cigar pens, etc...). I line them all up and start on one side; by the time I get to the last tube I go back to the first tube to repeat the process for about 5-8 coats.
• After wiping on the finish and setting it to the side to move to the next blank, I stand them up on end to keep them from laying flat. I flip the blank on each coat so that the same end of the blank is not always down.
• I put the blank back on the lathe and lightly hit it with 2000 grit dry and then finish normally, with my finishing steps.

I only recently started doing this as it was really too cold to muck around in the shop longer than I really needed to. In the last six weeks or so, I have finished about 80 pens with this method. So far, it seems to work out well for me.

 

[Ed McDonnell]

Now that I've wrapped up my bash activities I should have a chance to play around with the cc some more. There are a lot of things I want to try with it.

Ed

 

[Crashmph]

I'm wondering if buffing wheels may be the factor there.

Dan,

I use buffing wheels on all my finishes. That may be where I am getting the higher gloss shine others are not seeing. I am only do in a light buffing on the blanks too.

Michael

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Dan, I use buffing wheels on all my finishes. That may be where I am getting the higher gloss shine others are not seeing. I am only do in a light buffing on the blanks too. Michael

This is my hypothesis. I will test it.