Wood stabilizing

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woodspinner

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I tried a new idea, to me anyway, today. I bought wood hardner from Home Depot, Put it in a Qt. jar with an attachment to my vacuum pump.
Put in the blanks, Calif. Buckeye, and pulled the vacuum to about 24. It took about 4 or 5 minutes to stop boiling and I took them out to dry. An hour later I turned a couple of the pieces and it worked great. My humidity is about 7% here.

Good turning and be safe
Bill
 
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William Young

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Eaglesc;
Are you saying that the HD hardner is non other than acetone and plexiglass? If so, what are the proportions seeing as one is a a solid and one is a liquid. I have some odds and ends of plexiglass left over from making pen display cases and I have a quart of acetone. .
I don't have a vacuum pump system. Would the same thing work without a vacuum if just left blanks in the liquid for a longer time? (with the holes pre-drilled?) I have some sumac and butterfly bush blanks that I may want to try it on.
W.Y.
 

tipusnr

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I missed the point of your reply Eagle. Are you saying that the wood hardener contains acetone and will ruin the vacuum pump or what? I'm awaiting a vacuum gauge and will be making a vacuum chamber from a pickle jar so am curious as I will be using a Harbor Freight vacuum pump to create the vacuum.
 

DCBluesman

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This system will work quite well either with or without a vaccuum pump...just leave the blanks in overnight if you can't pull a vaccuum. As for making a vaccuum pump, just don't use poly glue. In my experience it will soften and you may lose your vaccuum. I did until I changed to all metal.
 

Darley

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This is a very interesting subject, can someone tell me a site or a link to see this vacuum pump, you're are talking about a pickling jar (?) how do you fix the vacuum pump on a pickling jar? I read some where on this site that mixing plexi + aceton is a good things to do but to be carefull with the acetone as is highly flammable. I must try that one day as I got some spalted Mango in my wood fire pile .

Serge
 
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http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=203&SearchTerms=Stabilizing
 

Doghouse

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Darley, If you want to do something other than burn the mango, I can find uses for it...

OH $%#@ You can't ship live plants out of the country. Fungus being a live plant.[:(]
 

Docsmith45

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I first used this technique to stabilize some knife scales. I use a Mason canning jar with the two piece lid, not a mayonaise jar. I pour my wood hardener in along with my blanks. Put the lid on loosely. I then put the jar in hot water for a few minutes. tighten the lid, remove it to cool, and it will draw a low vacuum just like when you can pickles. The blanks or scales will bubble. I leave it for a day or two and then let the scales or blanks dry. It works well for me.

Doc
 

Doghouse

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Doc, Nothing like having finding a simple solution. Fantastic. I had forgotten all about canning and drawing a vacuum that way. Thanks for reminding us all.
 

penhead

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Thanks Doc for the info, sounds like something (safe) that I might try. Couple of questions I don't quite understand: Does the water need to be just HOT, or does it have to be at the boiling point?

And I don't think I quite understand about the lid after you put it on loosely in the hot water. When do I tighten the lid and then when do I remove it to cool? To draw a vacuum, doesn't the lid need to be back on tight..??

Thanks,
JohnPayton
 

woodspinner

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John The lid needs to be loose to relieve the pressure created in the heating. By tightening after removal it will seal and a vacuum will be created as the jar cools. Just like in canning food.

I do use a filter on my vacuum pump inlet.

Good turning and be safe
Bill
 

C_Ludwigsen

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A canning jar and hot water. Whodathunkit. I see a couple canning jars in my shopping list.

You using the Minwax wood hardener available at the big box stores?
 

Docsmith45

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I just use the water as it comes out of the hot tap. I would not care to boil the wood hardener. I suspect it would give of a lot of "not nice" fumes. I'm sure using a vacuum pump is much quicker but for a low tech operation my old mason jar works. [8D]

Doc
 

C_Ludwigsen

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What about one of those "Seal-a-meal" machines? Seal 1 end, drop in the hardener and blanks, put the other end in the sealer and let it rip.

Does this sound like it would work?
 

ryannmphs

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Chuck,
That's what I was thinking. Just have to be careful with the sealer, don't want to blow the budget and have to get a new one. And they do have an attachment that allows you to use the canning lids (the metal lids with the rubber seal on them) to create the vacuum. They should be reusable and I think I have a handfull laying around, just need to get the attachment, maybe I'll look tonight when DW and I go shopping.

Ryan
 

jkirkb94

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I turned my first pen last pm (spalted tamarind) after stabilizing it with Minwax Wood Hardener from Home Depot. About $7 for a can. I used a pickle jar (about $2) and a vacuum test kit from the local auto supply store (about $25; I found a wide range of prices at different auto stores for basically the same tester). I drilled a hole in the lid and epoxied a plastic 3-way valve to the lid. Used about 20lb of vacuum. Predrilled the blanks. No blowouts. Turned very well and very fast. I have bought some water based polyurethane(gloss), Olympic brand from local Lowe's, that I hope to try this week to stablize some other wood. I'll report my findings later. Will post the spalted tamarind pen later when I scan it. Kirk[8D]
 

William Young

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Doc.
That sounds like a wonderfull idea. My wife was canning a bunch of pickled beets this summer and I was amazed at how those thin lids suck inwards after they cool. I wonder if anyone knows exactly (or approximatly) how much vacuum is actually developed in that process.

Also, will it work as good with the oil base poly. ? ? Does the poly have to be thinned or is it used straight from the can.
I will probably trying that simple vacuum system with both poly and with the acetone/plexiglass.
I have some blanks of sumac that I could try it on first and if it didn't work right , it would be no loss because the wood is from my yard right outside my shop.
Thanks for what seems to be a great tip.
W.Y.
 

penhead

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OK, this is gonna hurt I have a feeling, but I gotta ask...are you referring to just a jar that had pickles in 'em...or is that in reference to something I never heard of..?

Thanks,
JohnPayton
 
G

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I'm not saying it won't work, but I don't think it will work as well as a vac.pump.
The solution is going to replace the air pockets in the material you are trying to stabilize.
Once you've pulled some of the air out the pressure equalizes.
When I run my vac pump and pull 24"(hg) there is no "boiling" after a while.
Bump-it up to 25" and the "boiling" resumes.This has happened after I left the blanks in solution overnight.Remeber,air pressure at sea level is 14.7 lbs per square inch.All you need is negative pressure to stop the beets from spoiling.
These "bubbles" came from somewhere,meaning that the solution did not penetrate all the way through.
As long as the blank doesn't blow apart it works.
If the blank blows apart you should leave it in a little longer.
 

William Young

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John;
That is commical[:)] [:D]
It has nothing to do with pickles. It is mason jars that are used for any type of canning. They come in various sizes and have a very thin metal disc (lid) with a rubber ring that sits on the edge (lip) of the jar. And a screw on lid that goes over top of that. When the liquid is first heated and then the lid tightened on, a vacuum is developed inside the jar and you can actually see a depression in the thin metal lid caused by the vacuum after it cools .
W.Y.
 

penhead

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Does anyone know just how vacuum one of those mason/pickle jars can sustain without cracking or anything else just as not good..?

Thanks,
JohnPayton
 

DCBluesman

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According to the folks at Ball, their Mason jars will handle 29" of mercury without a problem, even though normal canning does not go that far. They will NOT warrant that, however.
 

darbytee

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I can vouch for them handling up to 26" without a problem, but I haven't gone any farther than that. While we're on the topic though, I use oil base poly to stabilize. After several uses of the same batch I've noticed that the blanks don't fully saturate to the point where they will sink to the bottom of the poly. Am I missing some very basic rule of chemistry here, or is there something else going on?
 

DCBluesman

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Part of what is happening in your stabilization is that the water in your wood and the oil in your poly are migrating, water into the poly/oil and poly/oil into the wood, according to the fundamental principles of osmosis. Your mixture is becoming less purely poly and more of a poly/water mix which means that the osmosis process stops prematurely as soon as an equilibrium is reached. The more wood that you stabilize with the same batch of poly, the less effective it will be. Also, the greener the wood, the quicker the poly will water down and less effective for the required osmatic process.
 

bnosie

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For those of you who do not have a vacuum pump, I found this and tried it, and it actually works very well. Setup is super easy, poke a hole in the lid of a canning jar and put a little check valve over it - it actually looks like a really small band-aid. Fill the jar with material of your choice and place the blanks in the jar. I've found that it works best to put a piece of screen mesh or something like that on the blanks and then a weight on top of that to keep the blanks submerged. Otherwise, if the blank is not completely submerged, air will be sucked back into the wood when the vacuum is released. It has also worked better to NOT drill them prior to stabilizing. Otherwise air will get released and stay in the hole, and also get sucked back into the wood when the vacuum is released. I will usually pump the pump until the wood starts to bubble, and then pump some more. When the bubbling stops, I pump some more and more bubbles come out. I keep doing this until I can't get it to bubble much. My latest material I tried was the Bondo wood hardener from Lowes. It worked very well. I've also used polyurethane, Minwax Polycrylic, and I've also tried mixing dyes and oil paints in polyurethane. That worked OK, but I think a much thinner dye than what I had would work better.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm rambling, hope someone can use this info.
 
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Bill, Please elaborate about not drilling the blanks and the air staying in the hole. Are the blanks standing vertical and the air doesn't rise to the top of the liquid or are the blanks horizontal and the air is getting trapped that way.
Mac
 

bnosie

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The blanks are horizontal. I use just enough stabilizing material to cover the blanks and allow for some to be absorbed. I've tried them standing vertical, but it's harder to keep them submerged.
 

penhead

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Bill,
Checked out the link for that pump, nice price, but is there any way to add some type of gauge to that...or do you think it creates enough of a vacuum to worry about.

JohnPayton
 

bnosie

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I rigged it up on a jar that also had another vacuum pump ( a Mityvac hand pump) with a gauge and it drew around 26" Hg, but that was all I could get with the other pump, so I don't know if I was getting bleed back through the other pump. I suppose you could mount a gauge through the lid, but my use showed it did as good as, if not better than the Mityvac. The pump-n-seal claims to draw 29" Hg, but I think that is the ideal.
 
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Don't know what kind of wood you are stabilizing,but if you try something dense like maple burl you will find that pentration is better if you drill.
DAMHIKT
 

DCBluesman

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Just a little bit of my personal experience. I drill and mount the tubes, then rough the blanks down a bit. Pull them off the mandrel and soak them. The vacuum will make it happen quicker, but those thin blanks will saturate pretty quickly by themselves.
 

Chips n dust

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I have read with great interest about the wood stabilizing process,acetone, vacuum pump, etc. Being new at this my question is: What is the purpose of stabilizing wood?
Trevor

A day without sawdust is like a day without sunshine.
 

Doghouse

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If you have a very soft wood, or one that is spalted and punky in spots, or a burl that is prone to tear out...

Using any of the processes here insert a chemical into the gaps and cells of the wood which hardens it. This makes the cutting of the wood more uniform. (Note I did not say easier!) Depending on the chemical, it may make the entire piece extremely hard.
 

Fred in NC

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Has anybody tried this on maple burl? I have several pieces that are very hard to turn. I always lose small pieces no matter how sharp the tools are.
 
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