Where does Bethlehem Olive Wood Come From?

[robutacion]

I've been there and I know other IAP members have as well. I'm tellin' ya', it all can't be genuine BOW/JOW.

Chip,

How much is "it all"??

What is the amount imported and sold in the USA per year?

I just received several hundred blanks--less than 2 cubic feet. Or, relating it to the many trees in my yard, one 6" apple "arm" cut off or broken off in a wind storm is about 10-15 feet long. This is about 9.5 cubic feet. I lose dozens every year. So how much are we really using??

Did my 600 blanks make a dent?? I doubt it. But how many sources in the USA order 600 per year?? I'm guessing at most a dozen.

Just a little food for thought. Recognize we are ALL guessing here--what I know for certain is the box came from Israel---seems likely the wood IN the box also came from Israel.

Yes, I COULD be wrong. I consider it more likely that the amount of wood we are using is MUCH SMALLER than you all are Guessing.

How many BOW pens have been posted this year?? That would be a starting point.

Hi Ed,

I was writing a specific answer to your last post but then I realise that I would be jumping over what I'm putting together for the continuation of my attempt to educated some people about the Olive trees, which I already started. The answer to your comment highlight above will be answered soon.

On the other hand, and from what I read you say before, and correct me if I got it wrong, you are not much of a timber guy, or have had much experience with wood apart from maybe cutting a few branches and buying pen wood blanks blanks...???:wink::biggrin: No offend intended if this is the case, after all not everyone has the same life experiences and tendencies...!:biggrin: but your observation on the example you gave as a wood yield from a branch that size, really demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge about the Olive Tree characteristics, things that distinguish ojne wood species from the others...!:wink:

You may game something from listening to what I say about Olive wood and many other wood species I have had and still work with...!:wink: If you are becoming one of our members preferred supplier, helping you will help them...!

So stay tune..!

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

Well which is it , The Truth or Not necessary . I for one would like to know !!! I don't like selling something that I can't feel 100% sure of the authenticity of the claims . I'm hoping that George has some facts to back up his claims , although through logic I must say that if all the BOW I see being sold came from trees planted in the Holy land , there wouldn't be any trees left to prune .

Butch,

Thank you for having the decency to refer to me by my real/personal name, and while I agree the "frog" joke was directed to me, and of bad taste, I prefer to ignore such comments.

Some people expects/wants me to provide a sort of proof that themselves could never offer, is no different for me to prove that my claim is true, than would be for them to prove that I'm not...! In fact, a lot of the reasons I have been giving to assist people to start making questions, have been either ignored and some are not able to read between the lines, either way, these some facts and information will continued to be stated and demonstrated until those interested get the full message.

Don't worry about me not having facts (evidence) to back up my claim, I will respect requests made to keep that information private as I have for a few years now but, if I'm put in a situation that I have the legally share it, or my back end will get burnt, at that moment I will go down but, I will take a hell of many others with me, that's a promise...!:wink::biggrin:

If someone think that I'm telling a story or that I imagined, dreamed of it, and I'm spending my time and energy just for the fun of it, think twice, you don't know me at all...!

Cheers
George

 

[workinforwood]

I think your passion is a little too heavy George, and please don't see it as a personal attack of any kind. I completely agree about the entire BOW situation, But I also think it's not the type of thing to get overly worked up about. There are far more stressing issues in the world that a person could focus on changing, rather than a piece of wood that may or may not be what it is advertised. In the case of the BOW, it will always come down to the customers to decide what they believe and none of us will be able to change that belief.

 

[DCBluesman]

I appreciate the willingness of each member to share their knowledge and experience. It certainly helps me make a better informed decision. (My OW comes from trees...if it really is BOW or JOW or ROW or COW or AOW of GWOW...)

 

[rjwolfe3]

The simple truth of the matter is that I can't prove that all BOW comes from Bethlehem and you can't prove that it doesn't. It goes back to trusting our suppliers. I only buy from people that I trust and until you can prove that the people I buy from are ripping me off, I will believe them at face value. I agree that their are people out there ripping people off with fake BOW especially on Ebay.

However for you to make a blanket statement that all or most BOW comes from Italy and still not backing it up is wrong in my opinion. I did not take the time to read every word you posted because most of it was way too wordy for me but I still just haven't seen this proof that you speak of. I would just like to see your proof in English without all of the mumbo jumbo to read through. I mean no disrespect but get to point of all this without going around in circles please.

 

[TellicoTurning]

I've read through 98% of the posts in this thread... Olive trees are in abundance all around the Mediterranean, as well as California, Australia and I'm sure many other places.

I understand George's argument that things move around the world at an amazing volume and are touted as being from the last country to sell the items as a product of that country. Rightly or wrongly, this is a fact of life. I spent 40 years in the international traffic and transportation industry and part of my job was to coordinate shipments from country A to country B then from country B to countries C, D, E, F, and on to infinitude... by most countries laws, especially the U.S., if a product is produced in country A and then travels to country B for repackaging to country C, then the documentation is supposed to read country of origin is country A.... reality is, either through ignorance or deceit, often the country of origin will read Country B.

I've included a chart from Wikipedia (which I know to be only partially reliable...) that shows the world olive production...these 11 countries account for 95% of the world production of Olives... therefore by a simplistic reasoning, 95% of the world's olive wood.... Israel only figures as one country in the remaining 5%.

in the end, does it really matter... there will be a few that think it has some religious significance, but I believe most just like the wood. I sell olive wood pens, game calls, bottle stoppers and if I can get it large enough, I'll do pepper mills - although since you can smell the olive odor in the raw wood, it might influence the pepper corns, so will have to experiment with that... but I only sell it as olive wood. I throw the COA's away as I don't believe them. I don't believe my sales have been affected... most people that buy the olive woods do so because they like the beauty of the woods...

 

[Jgrden]

Way to go Padre. Good question.

 

[rjwolfe3]

The only reason it matters to me comes down to price. The rest I could care less about. I can buy olivewood all day long at around a $1 or so but BOW/JOW is somewhere around $5. That is quite a difference if the wood is really not what it says it is. That is my only reason for following this whole thread.

 

[DCBluesman]

Some of you may find post 7 in this thread interesting. Bill Jacobs is a good friend of many on this site. I've seen pictures of his trip to Bethlehem and his visit with the supplier. I was also the recipient of some of the wood, directly from Bill.

BTW, I don't offer this as proof of anything, but simply first hand evidence from a member and friend.

 

[penhead]

I agree totally and in whole with what DCBluesman has said in post#91...
I have dealt with Diane and Ghasen for a number of years, and though I have never personally met them or traveled to Israel, but I have trust in what they say.

 

[robutacion]

Some of you may find post 7 in this thread interesting. Bill Jacobs is a good friend of many on this site. I've seen pictures of his trip to Bethlehem and his visit with the supplier. I was also the recipient of some of the wood, directly from Bill.

BTW, I don't offer this as proof of anything, but simply first hand evidence from a member and friend.

Hi DCBluesman,

I appreciate your information and is good to know that some of those buying/using true BOW have experienced a trip to such tribulated part of the world, and meet with one of the most known suppliers of Olive wood..!

However, my claim is;
I've got evidence from the source where the wood was purchased from that, Italian Olive wood has been bought by people from Israel buy the container full (22' containers) for years, and sold as BOW/JOW and possibly other, all over the world, particularly as BOW as it is the most known/sourced and provides the most value/return/profit...!

Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, "someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it. Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!

Who is buying from whom...??? I don't really care nor I want to know, or helps to clear the situation up. If you don't care, fine, no problem but if you thing and believe that The Holy Land could not possible produce what was has been sold around the world as BOW, particularly from trimmings/pruning's, as I have demonstrated many times before and I will do it again here soon, then ask yourself, where is all this Olive wood is coming from...???

I'm simply "alerting/letting you know/advise" that this has been going on for some years, and is only increasing...! Who is involved...??? I don't know, I'm not the one buying this product but if you do, and if you don't thing that you should be taken as a fool, ask questions, take some particular steps to make sure you get the "real" deal, after all it would be difficult to give the excuse that you didn't know, from now on...!

I have absolutely nothing against Diane and Ghasen, and I would be pretty p!$$d-off if I was a "genuine" and well established BOW distributor and would see/find out, everyone else selling every piece of Olive wood they can get their hands on as BOW...! even possible copying/printing his original certificates to sell with the false BOW.

I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and for that, is only one thing that can clear the situation or at least make those that are selling false BOW, to think twice before they decided to continue, would be, to have some samples tested for originality/authenticity, not by any Israeli supplier but by some of the biggest importers of this product into their recipient countries, making sure that they would know that would be a condition of purchase/secure the deal...!

It is very tempting to get a product that resembles the original, for less money, isn't it...??? after all they are all Olive wood from the Olive Tree (the symbol of Peace) and a wood that "most" of us like and enjoy working with, some of them are even of great quality and grain BUT, they are not all BOW aren't they...???

Please, don't tell me/us if you are a BOW supplier or not, it doesn't help me or anyone else in this case. You would help yourself much better by removing any doubts you may have by having a couple of your blanks tested...!

There are great benefits with the clarification of this issue, some others may thing not, particularly if "they" are directly or indirectly involve, is not for me to decide, I've told you what I know and believe...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[sbell111]

Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, "someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it. Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!

The bolded bit doesn't make sense, to me. You see, if a person doesn't know about the problem, how could they care about it?

Last year, I bought a couple hundred BOW blanks. The guy that I made my deal with lived in Israel. My payment was wired to his bank in Israel. My blanks were shipped from Israel. I have no problem telling my customers that the pens that I sell them are made from BOW. Why wouldn't I? Because you say so? I'm afraid that I'm going to need alot more than that to call my supplier a liar.

 

[rjwolfe3]

+1!

Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, "someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it. Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!

The bolded bit doesn't make sense, to me. You see, if a person doesn't know about the problem, how could they care about it?

Last year, I bought a couple hundred BOW blanks. The guy that I made my deal with lived in Israel. My payment was wired to his bank in Israel. My blanks were shipped from Israel. I have no problem telling my customers that the pens that I sell them are made from BOW. Why wouldn't I? Because you say so? I'm afraid that I'm going to need alot more than that to call my supplier a liar.

 

[penhead]

"...I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and..."

Actually, you are the one who needs to prove it. You have said repeatedly, over and over, that you have proof...so, in my poker playing days, it was stated:

"..Put up or shut up..."

 

[robutacion]

Now, who is selling and who is buying it, is near impossible for me to tell and is not the point, the point is, is everyone (suppliers and buyers) getting what they are paying for...??? no, not everyone, "someone" is getting a raw deal and they know nothing about it. Do they care...??? some won't, some do, big time...!

The bolded bit doesn't make sense, to me. You see, if a person doesn't know about the problem, how could they care about it?

Last year, I bought a couple hundred BOW blanks. The guy that I made my deal with lived in Israel. My payment was wired to his bank in Israel. My blanks were shipped from Israel. I have no problem telling my customers that the pens that I sell them are made from BOW. Why wouldn't I? Because you say so? I'm afraid that I'm going to need alot more than that to call my supplier a liar.

Hi sbell,

OK, lets see what the "bolded bit" means...!

You see, some could have claimed that they really din't know about the scam, BUT, I have been telling loud enough for some time that, I have proof that Italian Olive wood has been exported to Israel to be sold as BOW...! now, if those same people express the opinion as not to care about it, then they have no problems BUT if they do care, and want to make absolutely sure that what they are getting is what it should be, speak to your suppliers and express your concerns (there is, if this bother you...!), you don't have to call anyone a liar nor I'm asking you to, I'm simply advising people that the scam is increasing with a presence of a lot of new "BOW" sellers out there...!

If this is a new concern to you, because you didn't know, you now do, and if you are one of many that has had this suspicion a long time ago (you only have to look at the number of threads and people involved in this discussion in the pass, here and elsewhere...!), is maybe time to get your regular/trusted/friend Israeli BOW/JOW supplier to do a better job at proving the authenticity of their Olive wood.

If I was a Israeli BOW/JOW established, original, regulated and truthful/honest supplier, aware of the false Bow being sold all around me, compromising my own business and integrity, and being "bombarded" with questions on my product authenticity, myself becoming aware that is a lot of people out there that no longer believe that most of the BOW now on sale everywhere is really authentic, I would be the first one to change whatever needed to be changed to provide that extra evidence that what I'm selling is the real deal...!

This is what I would do if I was a genuine BOW/JOW Israeli supplier, and if I was a importer of this product, I would be asking for that extra security/proof of the Olive wood origin, and I would certainly have at least one sample sent to a lab for testing and use that same results certificate to cover my @$$ and give to all my customers the piece of mind they deserve. If my reputation was on the line, this is what I would do, before I would wait to get additional proof or a change in the way the product is presented to the public as authentic.

You do that and I will guarantee that those that care about this whole issue, will be looking for your business, before anyone else's...!:wink:

BTW, we all know that the Olive wood is sold from Israel so, bank accounts, addresses and shipping are all from there, that was never a doubt or the issue...!

Unfortunately, I don't have the power (but someone may...!) to request documentation from the Italian or Israeli Customs to find out about shipments (22' containers) of Olive wood "to" and "from".
Pics of the wood being processed for these shipments and written evidence from the Olive wood mill owner in Italy that the wood is going to Israel purchased by a Israeli name that maybe or maybe not has been heard before, is not going to resolve the issue. What it means is that, if there was a doubt that this could be happening, just because, and many of us agree with the fact that, Israel particularly Bethlehem, simply doesn't have any more enough Olive trees to provide the world with enough BOW wood from its trimmings/prunings.

Now, and like anything else in life, there is the right way and the wrong way to go about it, which one is the most effective...??? I let you make your own judgment, I have made mine...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

"...I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and..."

Actually, you are the one who needs to prove it. You have said repeatedly, over and over, that you have proof...so, in my poker playing days, it was stated:

"..Put up or shut up..."

Hi penhead,

I respect your opinion BUT, I couldn't possible agree with you for obvious reasons...!

Well, in my poker playing days, if someone would give me a good deck of cards, that wouldn't make me a winner, in fact, is how you would use them, that would get you the results, right...??? well..., I'm giving you and everyone else a good deck of cards (information!), how good or not you are with it/them, or how you are going to use it/them is all up to you, huh...???:wink::biggrin:

The "..Put up or shut up..." thing, isn't really a good example to use, in fact I have seen that used a lot when, someone has something to hide, and want everyone to keep it quite...! I'm certain that you meant something else, reason why I thing that was probably not the best thing to say/write...!, we all make mistakes sometimes, huh...:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[PenMan1]

My lawyers can beat up your lawyers....

 

[robutacion]

Hi everyone,

I would like to continue with my "Olive wood story" and I will be in the position to demonstrate how little usable wood is in trimmings by using pictures that I had prepared for this same purpose a few years back. Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago when I lost approx 6.000 pictures from a major failure in one of my PC hard-drives. I had some backed up and that's what I've been looking at but, I reckon after the amount of looking I've done on my backup, they were one lot of many lost forever...!

Fortunately, I have plenty of Olive wood to do it all again, is just taking me a little longer than I would like but, don't worry, is almost all done again...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[DurocShark]

This thread has started slipping into arguing over semantics, a typical "Internet Fight".

George, thank you for raising the issue. I'm afraid that much of this debate is happening in a vacuum. We don't have any way for us as pen makers to test the wood. And even if we did, what would we compare it to? Until we can have a piece of wood we're certain is from Israel to test alongside, it would be inconclusive. And even then...

What do we do to confirm the origin of the wood? How can we do anything other than trust the proofs we *do* have: Assurances of the supplier, customs forms, etc.

I'd like to see this thread grow into a discussion of those ways to determine proof, not uneducated guesses.

 

[rjwolfe3]

I'm still waiting to see any kind of proof period!

 

[penhead]

Nope..what i said pretty much sums up the way that i personally feel about your hot air conspiracy theory...the fact that you have posted many many times in this thread alone that 'you have proof'...the fact that whenever someone won't agree to buy into your conspiracy theory you start putting them down and making excuses why 'they don't really understand..or 'that's not what you really mean'....that you will be showing us all proof 'very soon'...

...with the amount of money that would be involved if such a conspiracy theory were true, then you don't need proof (I say that because now it seems your proof has vanished in the haze from your HDD)...call any of the big news media...let them investigate...I am betting there are a 'lot' of investigative reporters out there that would jump at the chance to look into something like that.

And the worse part is, I am on the thin line of whether to actually believe you or not..I can almost envision some unscrupilous entity buying a container of OW, moving it ground transportation across Italy to the coast, putting it on a ship in a container, shipping it who knows how many miles across the water, takiing the container off the ship and ground transporting it all the way to Bethlehem, just to take the time to cut it up into penblanks, and then ship those blanks all the way back to the USA...I am sure there must be profit in there..???if you could produce a shred of undeniable evidence that such a thing was happening it sure would be more convincing, instead of just posting over and over that you have proof and want everyone to believe you.

"...I'm not the one that has to prove their BOW is authentic, "they" (all Israeli suppliers) are...! and..."

Actually, you are the one who needs to prove it. You have said repeatedly, over and over, that you have proof...so, in my poker playing days, it was stated:

"..Put up or shut up..."

Hi penhead,

I respect your opinion BUT, I couldn't possible agree with you for obvious reasons...!

Well, in my poker playing days, if someone would give me a good deck of cards, that wouldn't make me a winner, in fact, is how you would use them, that would get you the results, right...??? well..., I'm giving you and everyone else a good deck of cards (information!), how good or not you are with it/them, or how you are going to use it/them is all up to you, huh...???:wink::biggrin:

The "..Put up or shut up..." thing, isn't really a good example to use, in fact I have seen that used a lot when, someone has something to hide, and want everyone to keep it quite...! I'm certain that you meant something else, reason why I thing that was probably not the best thing to say/write...!, we all make mistakes sometimes, huh...:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

My lawyers can beat up your lawyers....

Now, what purpose does your comment serve...??? and why, did you had the need to make it...???

I'm trying to have a "civilised" conversation here, those things don't help much...!

Cheers
George

 

[devowoodworking]

My lawyers can beat up your lawyers....

Now, what purpose does your comment serve...???

Cheers
George

I thought it was funny! :biggrin:

 

[dexter0606]

Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago

Convenient :wink:
Perhaps a conspiracy by the BOW suppliers!!!

 

[robutacion]

This thread has started slipping into arguing over semantics, a typical "Internet Fight".

George, thank you for raising the issue. I'm afraid that much of this debate is happening in a vacuum. We don't have any way for us as pen makers to test the wood. And even if we did, what would we compare it to? Until we can have a piece of wood we're certain is from Israel to test alongside, it would be inconclusive. And even then...

What do we do to confirm the origin of the wood? How can we do anything other than trust the proofs we *do* have: Assurances of the supplier, customs forms, etc.

I'd like to see this thread grow into a discussion of those ways to determine proof, not uneducated guesses.

Hi DurocShark,

I wish that I could reply to all these posts in a easier way and not having to quote each individual post, to reach the right person whit my answer...! A little more work but its fine...!:biggrin:

Yes you're right, semantics seem to be the tool of choice when someone hasn't much to say...! I certainly hope that this thread is not going to turn into such fight, I would prefer to believe that people here have the decency to void such low representation of what I believe IAP is not...! It may have been requiring some extra attention from our moderator(s), that could only be expected due to such controversial issue. Sorry Curtis...!

Off-course that, I wouldn't expect the average pen maker that buy a few BOW blanks to be the ones to send blanks to the Lab. That wouldn't only be unnecessary as many people get their blanks from the same local supplier so would result in various blanks being tested from the same batch.

The test(s) I'm talking about could not possibly done by us, I've though that has been made clear, previously. This tests are done everyday by and for people trying to identify a certain wood species. Total wood identification is a difficult, time consuming and expensive procedure, I know when I sent my first wood sample for complete identification testing, and received the results and the bill...! This time, the objective of the testing is exclusively to determine soil, nutrients, minerals, general conditions, etc., etc. where the tree that produced that sample could have come from. This test would be further facilitated as the wood species is known and the geographic possibilities would be reduced/concentrated on only 2 origins/regions, both a world apart, not only in distance...!

I particularly like your comment and suggestion made on your last paragraph,
"I'd like to see this thread grow into a discussion of those ways to determine proof, not uneducated guesses"

I would also like to know/hear what other people would like to see done to get the truth out, and what other ways would be possible/achievable to determine the wood authenticity...! if you have a suggestion, please let is know.

My suggestion (sample test) has been explained with the most detail I can and for many people out there that have been involved with timbers identification by these means, will verify that, would be probably the simplest, quickest and economical answer to the problem...!:wink::biggrin:

Ed, you've got 600 blanks, you could lose a couple and take the first step...!:biggrin: Sorry mate, I've though of you as you just recently told us that you just got them, this doesn't really mean much and you have the right to do with them what you think is right but as an example if you would decide to remove any doubts from your head and possibly identical doubts from people that would like to buy these blanks from you, with that new, unique and extra guarantee that, what you have is the real thing (note that, I'm not saying that is not...!) the couple of hundred bucks or so, the test would cost, the small cost added to each blank would, In my opinion, be a small price your customers would be more than willing to pay...!

Just my opinion...!

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago

Convenient :wink:
Perhaps a conspiracy by the BOW suppliers!!!

NO, NO, NO my friend...!, you got it all wrong, what I've lost were pictures from a demonstration that I done some years back (2006-7 I think...!) about the Olive tree pruning/trimming branches and the various cuts to demonstrate what comes out of them as usable timber for figured pen blanks, and how that figure/texture looks like...!.

I have not lost any of my claimed evidence, in fact, when I first made my claim at a certain location (2006-2007), I received a couple of anonymous threats to shut up or else...! so, and after being reported to the respective authorities, I made 2 CD's sealed and a letter went with them with instructions, send to 2 different "individuals", one interstate, the other in this state, both have nothing to do with timbers and no one knows who they are, they know what to do if something happens to me...! So don't worry, all the claimed evidence is a live and well thank you very much.

Very sorry if I disappointed you...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[rjwolfe3]

George,
I think you might want to start hiding, I heard a rumor that the BOW/JOW organization is looking for you and your evidence. I think they may try to silence you. A friend of a friend told me this, so it has to be true. You might want to post your evidence here so that if they silence you the truth will still be out there.

Unfortunately, the folder where these pics were stored were all lost about 6 months ago

Convenient :wink:
Perhaps a conspiracy by the BOW suppliers!!!

NO, NO, NO my friend...!, you got it all wrong, what I've lost were pictures from a demonstration that I done some years back (2006-7 I think...!) about the Olive tree pruning/trimming branches and the various cuts to demonstrate what comes out of them as usable timber for figured pen blanks, and how that figure/texture looks like...!.

I have not lost any of my claimed evidence, in fact, when I first made my claim at a certain location (2006-2007), I received a couple of anonymous threats to shut up or else...! so, and after being reported to the respective authorities, I made 2 CD's sealed and a letter went with them with instructions, send to 2 different "individuals", one interstate, the other in this state, both have nothing to do with timbers and no one knows who they are, they know what to do if something happens to me...! So don't worry, all the claimed evidence is a live and well thank you very much.

Very sorry if I disappointed you...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

I think your passion is a little too heavy George, and please don't see it as a personal attack of any kind. I completely agree about the entire BOW situation, But I also think it's not the type of thing to get overly worked up about. There are far more stressing issues in the world that a person could focus on changing, rather than a piece of wood that may or may not be what it is advertised. In the case of the BOW, it will always come down to the customers to decide what they believe and none of us will be able to change that belief.

Hi Jeff,

I apologise to only now reply to your post but, your comments were greatly appreciated and I could not ignore that..! thank you.

I also appreciate the fact that you feel that I'm a passionate person, this is the same passion that got me out of a wheel-chair once before and what allowed me to survive this far...! I'm particular passionate about subjects that I know well, and things I believe in.

As much as some will hate it, my passion for things I involve myself with are often taken to extremes, this result in an interesting mixed results, does that don't like it and does that wouldn't do without, after all, we are what we are...!

If only could be possible to please everyone...!!! each one of us have a unique way to express ourselves, and I like self discipline and I'm very detailed in everything I do or say, and despite of some describing my writings as "mumbo jumbo", many have learn a great deal from it, for some time...!:wink:

You are also very right when you say that, there are many more stressing issues in the world that need desperate changing and focus on, I totally agree and while I'm powerless and unable to focus and change them all, is one that I can make a difference, reason why it has become so important to me...!

Yes, people only believe in what they want to believe, and why...??? well, that would be another very "interesting" subject to write many pages about but, some other time...!:wink::biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[penhead]

You may not be able to please everyone, George, but I am betting you could please a huge percentage of people here, the one's that you are so passionate about helping, the people who have read pages and pages of your posts...if you really care about the people, and as you say "reason why it has become so important to me", if this issue is so vitally important to save the world from the faux BOW dealers...then give us some answers, give us something to work with here George, we want to believe...just give us a trivial piece of undeniable evidence..!

If only could be possible to please everyone...!!! each one of us have a unique way to express ourselves, and I like self discipline and I'm very detailed in everything I do or say, and despite of some describing my writings as "mumbo jumbo", many have learn a great deal from it, for some time...!:wink:

You are also very right when you say that, there are many more stressing issues in the world that need desperate changing and focus on, I totally agree and while I'm powerless and unable to focus and change them all, is one that I can make a difference, reason why it has become so important to me...!

Cheers
George

 

[robutacion]

George,
I think you might want to start hiding, I heard a rumor that the BOW/JOW organization is looking for you and your evidence. I think they may try to silence you. A friend of a friend told me this, so it has to be true. You might want to post your evidence here so that if they silence you the truth will still be out there.

I'm so glad that some of you can can make jokes out of serious matters, well if comedians can make jokes about the Queen, P'Ministers and who ever they wish, why not, this is a free world, huh...???:wink:

I bet, all those people involved with the pen watch's issue, should be relieved that the attention went elsewhere, and that we have jokers and comedians to help along...!:biggrin: What would we do without a laugh every so often...???:wink:arty:

PS: While I'm getting some work done on the series of pics I've lost about the trimming's issue, here is something that I probably shouldn't have been able to have accessed, I did so have a little read on some of what was said on this forum, http://www.woodworkforums.com/f69/importing-pen-blanks-overseas-92620/

Cheers
George

 

[maxwell_smart007]

This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste. Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.

If there's solid proof of wrongdoing or ethical impropriety from a vendor, then perhaps we should hear about it. Otherwise, it's just a fight that will continue until said proof is offered.

I'd just like to point out a few points in passing:

Olive wood from Israel is more valuable as a wood commodity than as an olive-producing commodity. Therefore, Israel's lack of olive-production does not prove that the olive tree does not exhist in numbers there.

Second, there are olive trees in Israel, seemingly in abundance.
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2725864630077355298PBmwGS

Third: even the branches that would be pruned seem to be gnarled, indicating that they would, indeed, be figured. The arid life of a tree in that part of the world likely makes the prunings more figured than in sunny, wet California.

Finally, to roughly quote Tommy Boy - "I can get a good look at a Tbone by sticking my head up a cow's backside, but I'd rather take my butcher's word for it"...

I for one have never doubted that the wood I receive as 'genuine' is not genuine. I have to trust the ethics and business practices of my vendors for that.

 

[penhead]

So your last post on that forum was to 'threaten' a large landowner and religious leader...threaten..and you wonder why you were banned there..??

I agree...this discussion should be dead/done/and over.

George,
I think you might want to start hiding, I heard a rumor that the BOW/JOW organization is looking for you and your evidence. I think they may try to silence you. A friend of a friend told me this, so it has to be true. You might want to post your evidence here so that if they silence you the truth will still be out there.

I'm so glad that some of you can can make jokes out of serious matters, well if comedians can make jokes about the Queen, P'Ministers and who ever they wish, why not, this is a free world, huh...???:wink:

I bet, all those people involved with the pen watch's issue, should be relieved that the attention went elsewhere, and that we have jokers and comedians to help along...!:biggrin: What would we do without a laugh every so often...???:wink:arty:

PS: While I'm getting some work done on the series of pics I've lost about the trimming's issue, here is something that I probably shouldn't have been able to have accessed, I did so have a little read on some of what was said on this forum, http://www.woodworkforums.com/f69/importing-pen-blanks-overseas-92620/

Cheers
George

 

[Padre]

This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste. Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.

If there's solid proof of wrongdoing or ethical impropriety from a vendor, then perhaps we should hear about it. Otherwise, it's just a fight that will continue until said proof is offered.

I'd just like to point out a few points in passing:

Olive wood from Israel is more valuable as a wood commodity than as an olive-producing commodity. Therefore, Israel's lack of olive-production does not prove that the olive tree does not exhist in numbers there.

Second, there are olive trees in Israel, seemingly in abundance.
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2725864630077355298PBmwGS

Third: even the branches that would be pruned seem to be gnarled, indicating that they would, indeed, be figured. The arid life of a tree in that part of the world likely makes the prunings more figured than in sunny, wet California.

Finally, to roughly quote Tommy Boy - "I can get a good look at a Tbone by sticking my head up a cow's backside, but I'd rather take my butcher's word for it"...

I for one have never doubted that the wood I receive as 'genuine' is not genuine. I have to trust the ethics and business practices of my vendors for that.

Yes, there are olive trees in Israel, especially in the Galilee area, which that picture was taken from. Those orchards are beautiful, peaceful and full of great big olive trees. I have seen them.

The first picture I have attached is of the style of orchards in the Bethlehem region. The second is some of the olive trees outside Jerusalem.

I truly believe that is this thread has been polarized so far that further dicussion isn't fruitful. No pun intended. There is not a definitive answer either way. All we can do is make an educated decision. Should we trust our vendors? Yes, until proven otherwise.

No one can say that ALL BOW/JOW/NOW is from Bethlehem, Jerusalem or Nazareth. Conversely, no one can say that NO BOW/JOW/NOW is really from Bethlehem, Jerusalem or Nazareth.

We step out in faith and trust. That's all we can ask for.

T-bone steak from the inside? ROTFL!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[arioux]

This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste. Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.

.

Agree. Out of topics post deleted and apologies to those that lost their time reading it.

 

[robutacion]

This thread is already in danger of getting pushed over the line of good taste. Conspiracy jokes and the like are not productive to the discussion - on the other hand, neither are accusations without evidence.

.

Agree. Out of topics post deleted and apologies to those that lost their time reading it.

I'm sorry if you and others feel that way, and that you feel that you wasted your precious time reading this long thread (well, I've told you from the very beginning that this was going to be a long one...!:wink however, I'm not finished yet, and I would suggest people to not start making final conclusions yet.

I have not yet provided some additional information to complement and justify my claim, you may want to have all the answers right know, I for starters don't have all the answers (do you...???), and I will determine what should be shared on my own time. Rushing me, doesn't going to work, and until I'm satisfied that I provided all the information I want to share, be patient, bare with me a little longer, you "MAY" get what you want and maybe not...!

Is important to me to know what others think of the issue and how that may affect them, is important to give them sufficient time to digest all the information, agreeing or disagreeing is beyond the point and is totally expected. I have no problems in doing my own "dirty laundry" BUT I refuse to do others...!:wink::biggrin:

I have already asked and explained why I needed a little extra time to continue with my "Olive wood story", I had work done that I needed here and I lost it (together with a lot more) as explained, I'm trying to reproduce some of the pics that I had and I'm having troubles with the weather. I require to reach some of the small wood (branches from trimmings) I have stored in my open storage paddock, not far from home and need to drive to the Olive grove where the trees are to take some pics but we have had rain for days and damn cold, I'm not going to go out in the cold and rain and get even sicker than what I am already so, if you thing this is a excuse, is nothing I can do, after all you believe in what you want to believe, right...???

I will put it all here as soon as I can, knowing perfectly well that, won't make any difference to those that already made their mind about the issue, nevertheless it may make a different to many others, to help them to make theirs...!:wink:

In the mean time, be respectful, please...!:biggrin:

Cheers
George

 

[leestoresund]

I've enjoyed reading all 12 pages.

Now, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[sbell111]

You see, some could have claimed that they really din't know about the scam, BUT, I have been telling loud enough for some time that, I have proof that Italian Olive wood has been exported to Israel to be sold as BOW...! now, if those same people express the opinion as not to care about it, then they have no problems BUT if they do care, and want to make absolutely sure that what they are getting is what it should be, speak to your suppliers and express your concerns (there is, if this bother you...!), you don't have to call anyone a liar nor I'm asking you to, I'm simply advising people that the scam is increasing with a presence of a lot of new "BOW" sellers out there...!

If this is a new concern to you, because you didn't know, you now do, and if you are one of many that has had this suspicion a long time ago (you only have to look at the number of threads and people involved in this discussion in the pass, here and elsewhere...!), is maybe time to get your regular/trusted/friend Israeli BOW/JOW supplier to do a better job at proving the authenticity of their Olive wood.

If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.

This is what I would do if I was a genuine BOW/JOW Israeli supplier, and if I was a importer of this product, I would be asking for that extra security/proof of the Olive wood origin, and I would certainly have at least one sample sent to a lab for testing and use that same results certificate to cover my @$$ and give to all my customers the piece of mind they deserve. If my reputation was on the line, this is what I would do, before I would wait to get additional proof or a change in the way the product is presented to the public as authentic.

I am not convinced that such lab testing would be as conclusive as you think it would be. Nor am I convinced that such a lab would be easily accessible to our suppliers. Further, I don't know that our suppliers would be able to afford the testing that you recommend, even if it were conclusive for this use and available to them.

 

[robutacion]

I've enjoyed reading all 12 pages.

Now, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Thanks leestoresund, I'm glad to know that someone has enjoyed reading all these pages until now, more coming...!:wink::biggrin:

I don't think that I can help you with your questions but, I've been told that all angels in Haven only healthy stuff so they should all be skinny = don't take much room = fit a few extra in it (pin's head)...!:wink::biggrin:

No doubt that, between my "normal" long posts, others opinions a few goes at me and other things that aren't worth mentioning, a thread can quickly grow.

In fact, should be something about threads about this same issue, here, elsewhere, in the present and in the recent pass that, attracts always a very large number of viewers. This thread is a week old and so far, we had 36 posters and 3.201 viewers, that makes it nearly 500 viewers every day...!

I don't believe, all these many people would view/follow a thread/subject unless would mean something to them...! I can be wrong, that wouldn't be the first nor the last time...!:wink:

Still working on "things", I will get it done soon...!

Cheers
George

 

[DurocShark]

I've enjoyed reading all 12 pages.

Now, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

As many as want to. Or 42, depending on your geek score. :wink:

 

[robutacion]

If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.

You are not the first one to come up this "personal assumption/line of though" that DOES NOT reflect what I've been saying and will continue to do. I have never asked anyone to start to call "liars" to anyone including their suppliers only because I'm (and have been for a quite a while) making known publicly what I know and from what I have/was given (probably by mistake/not intend to be used as evidence as such) to support my believe and suspicions that Olive wood from Italy (and probably other European countries rich in Olive trees has been exported in 22' containers to Israel to be sold as BOW from Israel to the world...!

Now, what part of my claim, do you have problems with understanding...???

I have been, am and I will soon provide some more information that supports my believes and, as I'm aware the believes of many others here and everywhere that, not all the BOW on sale is authentic nor it could be...!

I have also repeatedly said/advised strongly that those that buy BOW or want to buy it because of what it represents (what makes it authentic) to be aware that is a good possibility that what they have been/are/will be buying "could be" some of the false BOW (imported Olive wood) circulating everywhere. I have also suggested that you make your suppliers aware that this is/could be a worry/concern to you and many others, to ask questions and make sure they check also their sources in a way that could dismiss clearly, the possibility that they are involved directly or indirectly with the scam. (I would use other word if I could find one other, that could describe/signify the same meaning...!).

Now, where did I ever suggested/asked you or anyone to start to call a "liar" to anyone...??? Putting words in my mouth doesn't work, even tough I understand and totally disagree why people has the necessity to do it to take things to the level they want and not to what was said/intended by me. What part of this do you have problems in understanding...?

I have also suggested (and I was hoping that others could come up with other possibilities) a simple and efficient way to get some "real" answers and maybe allow all of us to find out who is right or not and who's "BOW" blanks should be voided at all costs, if not totally refused, regardless of price offered. This suggestion refers to the lab test that I have been repeatedly mentioning, and this test is not as difficult to obtain in any major centres of any country, as you may think. When it comes to the test cost, sure will not be free but, how much does "ones" reputation and name worth...???

Has become obvious that, a sticker or a small piece of badly printed paper as a certificate of authenticity, is not good enough, has also become obvious that having the blanks received from Israel (money sent to a Israeli bank account, etc.,) doesn't dismiss the possibility that I could be right, doesn't it...???

We have had a few members here, and I know that the same would apply all over the world, that clearly indicated that this BOW issue doesn't mean much if anything at all to them, in fact some have also indicated that, they disregard/discard the pieces of paper (certificates and stickers) that come with the blanks and sell their pens (and other) as Olive wood, Holy wood (all Olive wood is Holly, regardless of its origin...), made from the "Tree of Peace wood", etc. One of the things that really puzzle me is, why would anyone want to buy and pay a premium price product (Olive wood with a BOW tag) when, they can get equal and in most cases superior quality (figure) Olive wood from either local sources or from other locations at their disposal, for half or less of the price...???

And this brings me to that question that has been asked a few times before, does everyone know/are aware that BOW and Olive wood are the same thing...??? that good quality Olive wood can be sourced from so many other places, apart from Israel...??? are new people coming to the world of pen making/turning, being brain washed about this BOW issue, making them believe that if isn't BOW is not good enough...???

This BOW issue is a lot more "cloudy" for pen turners than to any other type of wood turning, particularly those that perform medium to large scale turned items. They know that if they want Olive wood for their turnings that, the last place they would consider would be Olive wood from Israel, they are smart enough to know that, BOW is not an option for all possible obvious reasons.:wink:

It saddens me to see young generations and people of all ages starting this great art of wood turning, getting the wrong information for profitability and unscrupulous reasons, instead of providing the simple and real facts such as, Olive trees from all over the world are special, Olive wood provided by your local suppliers as local, deserves some respect and consideration also, in fact, that same local Olive wood will allow you to experience size creations items (pic attached) never possible with BOW/JOW or any other Olive wood from Israel...!

I have a great respect for the Olive trees is Israel, particularly the few left ancient ones which have survived a great deal of tribulations for centuries. I have exactly the same respect and admiration for ancient Olive trees still in existence all over the world, younger trees have my most respect also, but they have a long way to go before they reach maturity and give me something to work with, very much as the old times where a aged person was fully respected by any younger person, age/maturity did mean something, then...!:frown: Those times are long gone, huh...???

I have been accused here, a few times of sounding like a "broken record", if this is the case and I admit it is, there are a few others that would certainly belong to the same "category", while I get asked the "same" questions I will continue to give the "same" answers...!:wink::biggrin:

PS: As many would agree, one of the bigger mistakes we all do is to "react" in the spur of the moment (I'm as guilty as most of you...!). Things are said that shouldn't be, things are said that can not be taken back, things are said without proper evaluation and things are said for a reason, in the middle of all this, consider the things that you could have said if you either, have gave if a bit of a though or taken the time the digest/dissect the information. I'm deliberately taken my time, for a reason...!

Try to apply those principals here, we all will a lot better served in the end...!:wink:

Cheers
George