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Old 09-18-2010, 09:07 AM   #121 (permalink)
 
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Wow another book written with nothing being said. George, you would make an awesome politician! Normally I enjoy reading your long posts on other topics. I think you are a very smart person and I have learned a lot from you. But on this subject I just can't see your point. You keep speaking of some kind of evidence and that you will get to it eventually but the more you post the less I see. I am beginning to wonder if all of these posts on this topic are a way to get some attention and not a way to educate us on this topic. Like I said I respect your opinion on most things but this one you are driving me crazy on.
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:47 AM   #122 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by rjwolfe3 View Post
Wow another book written with nothing being said. George, you would make an awesome politician! Normally I enjoy reading your long posts on other topics. I think you are a very smart person and I have learned a lot from you. But on this subject I just can't see your point. You keep speaking of some kind of evidence and that you will get to it eventually but the more you post the less I see. I am beginning to wonder if all of these posts on this topic are a way to get some attention and not a way to educate us on this topic. Like I said I respect your opinion on most things but this one you are driving me crazy on.
Jeezz Rob, you've got me surprised...!

I'm not sure how to answer mate, somewhere in there, is maybe a complement, if that is the case, thank you very much but, I shall use one of the OZ (Aussie) "old bush sayings" to express my thoughts and it goes like this..., "Ain't sure if I wanta kiss or punch ya...!"

Attention...??? not really, I run away from the spotlight as much as Devil runs from the Cross (and I'm not even religious...!) but, if I get caught in it for whatever reason, I've learnt to stand my head up and confront the bull by its horns...!

Haven't you notice that, is very "strange" to see me posting (write) so much, without adding any pics...??? after all, wouldn't be robutacion's posts without being long and very colourful with pics, right...??? well, don't dispair, they are coming...!!!

PS: The "old bush saying" I used, is not intended to offend or defame Rob (rjwolfe3) or anyone else...!

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Last edited by robutacion; 09-19-2010 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:07 AM   #123 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.
<snipped lots and lots of verbiage that had little or nothing to do with my prior post>
Other than the fact that you quoted part of my post, I can find no evidence that you read any of it.

Instead, you wrote a long treatise which basically repested what you have already posted over and over. Perhaps, you could go back and take a look at my post and actually reply to my points.

In case you don't feel like scrolling up and see the post again, try this:
  1. On one hand, you suggest that we all go to our suppliers and insist on proof that the BOW that we purchased is actual BOW. On the other hand, you take the position that we needn't accuse our suppliers of lying. Do you not see that by insisting on further evidence (whatever that might be) we would be, in fact, calling our suppliers liars.
  2. You state that you have proof of a widespread deception whereas olive wood is being shipped into Israel to be shipped out as BOW. You have not shared any of this so-called evidence with us. Therefore, you expect us to act on faith that some unknown guy on the internet is correct about this scam even though he refuses to provide any evidence. How can we take this on faith in the face of the fact that the expenses incurred in such a con would likely negate most of the expected profits of same? Why should we accuse our suppliers of lying if you are not willing to produce whatever evidence of the scam that you state that you have?
  3. You argue that lab testing should be done by the sellers of BOW to prove that it is, indeed, BOW. However, you don't consider the fact that such lab testing would likely be inconclusive, cost prohibitive, and not readily available to our suppliers.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:35 AM   #124 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by sbell111 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by robutacion View Post
Quote:
If I advertise an old Camaro as an authentic SS and you feel the need to ask me if I put the SS badging on to make a non-SS appear to be an SS, then you are calling me a liar. I am simply unwilling to call my supplier a liar without you first providing proof that such lying actually exists. Given that you have repeatedly stated that you have that very proof, let's see it. If your proof convinces us that this type of fraud is rampant among BOW suppliers, I will consider asking my guy more questions as I am sure others will do also.
<snipped lots and lots of verbiage that had little or nothing to do with my prior post>
Other than the fact that you quoted part of my post, I can find no evidence that you read any of it.

Instead, you wrote a long treatise which basically repested what you have already posted over and over. Perhaps, you could go back and take a look at my post and actually reply to my points.

Yes Sir, and here I am responding directly to you or should I say in a way hopefully you understand, as I have already answer those question a few times before. With all due respect, you may be the one that need to read my posts with a little more care to actually read and interpret what I'm saying but, in any case and to be respectful to your wish/request, the following are my anwers...!

In case you don't feel like scrolling up and see the post again, try this:
  1. On one hand, you suggest that we all go to our suppliers and insist on proof that the BOW that we purchased is actual BOW. On the other hand, you take the position that we needn't accuse our suppliers of lying. Do you not see that by insisting on further evidence (whatever that might be) we would be, in fact, calling our suppliers liars.

    No I don't see, nor I agree for a second, with your philosophy. There are many ways to approach your supplier in this matter, starting calling him/her a liar, doesn't serve anyone's purpose, at least until your supplier has the chance/opportunity to access the situation and take the steps he/she feel appropriate. If you have concerns that I may be right and what I'm saying and shortly "demonstrated" in a more colourful way, makes real sense then, your approach/speaking to your supplier should be done with the benefit of the doubt. Someone is involved, that's no question, who...??? is not for me to decided or to find out, but those buying the product with the believe that they are getting the authentic product. If you supplier has nothing to hide, then he/she has nothing to be concerned about and agreeing or not with my claim, they should do whatever is necessary to put them in the clear, and provide the extra assurance that their product is authentic, after all we all agree what is in place at the moment is no longer satisfactory, according to opinions referred here by BOW buyers...!

  2. You state that you have proof of a widespread deception whereas olive wood is being shipped into Israel to be shipped out as BOW. You have not shared any of this so-called evidence with us. Therefore, you expect us to act on faith that some unknown guy on the internet is correct about this scam even though he refuses to provide any evidence. How can we take this on faith in the face of the fact that the expenses incurred in such a con would likely negate most of the expected profits of same? Why should we accuse our suppliers of lying if you are not willing to produce whatever evidence of the scam that you state that you have?

    My claim is composed of various facts, one of which, is the evidence I was given/provided/passed-on that, Olive wood from Italy has been processed and bought by Israeli persons in a volume of 20' containers and shipped to Israel at regular bases...! The other aspects/parts of my claim will be shared very soon, same have been already but, I will concentrate (on my next "demonstration/illustration") all then to make easier to follow.
    My intentions are to "alert" THOSE INTERESTED that, the situation has been well hidden for some time but recently the influx of BOW sellers has increased in such way that, will make a lot easier to demonstrate that Israel can not possibly supply such volume of authentic BOW/JOW, etc...! to the world.
    When it comes to the profits, it varies but the last calculations made, 1 cubic meter of already cut pens blanks from this Italian supplier, would cost approx. 2.300 Euros (the bigger the size the lower the price per cubic meter or Quintals as they call it), a container fits at least 24x1 cubic meter pallets, (1 pallet would contain approx. 2.100 pen blanks) the container use cost is about 1.500 Euros, fumigation is not require as the wood is clean (for logs it would be required), + some other costs but it worked out at about USD$2 per blank landed in Israel approx. How much do you pay for them...???

  3. You argue that lab testing should be done by the sellers of BOW to prove that it is, indeed, BOW. However, you don't consider the fact that such lab testing would likely be inconclusive, cost prohibitive, and not readily available to our suppliers.

    How many times have you had such type testes done/performed...???
    Due to my search for anything growing locally, I have found species that are of interest to a lot of other people, including biologists and wood collectors, I have been providing a considerable number of "official" wood samples (cut to a specific size) of these less common wood species, to some of theses people that in turn have them tested in specialized labs for this nature tests. All the search, study and communications exchanged with these biologists and wood collectors, I've learn a considerable amount of information, and how things are done in these tests. Some of those tests are subsidized by Government or Universities if this is a case study to their students, other are paid by private people, including some of the more serious wood collectors. In between all the wood samples others requested and some that I needed identification myself, were shared (costs) between those interested, only once I went on my own with a sample that of a unknown tree species and nothing else to assist with the tests, and that cost me a very "hurtful" amount of money for someone that never had much of it...! The BOW test is a lot simpler as the tree species is known and only one location (soils, minerals, etc.,) that the lab people have to concentrate on, and that is Israel conditions, just by being proved that it could not have come from a olive tree growing there, would be sufficient, right...???. It would make it a lot simpler, quicker and cheaper to have a soil sample from Bethlehem and that wouldn't be that difficult to acquire from the Israeli sources, huh...???
    I've sent many wood samples thousands of miles away to be tested, not much of a difficult thing if you spend the time to search, study and enquire about it...!


Are these going to be enough/sufficient answers to you..??? I will doubt, as I will doubt that regardless of what I say and or give you, will never be sufficient. You (and others) may want me to name your supplier's name (who ever that is) as one of those involved, I have repeatedly said that I don't know nor I want to know who your and others suppliers are, nor is the reason why I'm maintaining my claim as a fact. Some of you will never accept it, even if I would be to mention names, the very first thing that I would be asked for, would be the "integrity/validity/authenticity" of my documents and so on, so on, so on...!

Make your own mind and decisions, based on many other facts, the sale of Olive wood to Israel is only one of them...!

Yours respectfully,
George V.
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Last edited by robutacion; 09-24-2010 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 09-22-2010, 10:31 AM   #125 (permalink)
 
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it worked out at about USD$2 per blank landed in Israel approx. How much do you pay for them...???
I paid $2.10 per blank landed in the US. That tells me that my wood probably originated in Israel.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:12 AM   #126 (permalink)
 
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Well my take on everything is, talk to your suppliers of BOW and ask them if indeed that is the product they are selling. This is not to call them liars but mearly ask if they indeed in good concience are certain that is what it is. Now testing that would be dependent on the supplier and his/her credibility. I myself If I were a reseller would test some then go from there. I could either rip the head off and expose my supplier if he were wrong or sell with confidence and provide proof of the real deal.
It just seems to me the sheer number of availabile BOW blanks would raise suspicion but that is just me besides anyone can print a paper saying it is authentic. I think George has some very valid points but by the same token the origin to me is non important at this time I just love the wood and its smell.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:17 AM   #127 (permalink)
 
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I think you guys just have too much patient reading all this book writings. Whethere you prove the point or not does it make any different for your customers? they buy the beauty of your pen and the art wen into making it. I f the issue of he religious part of BOW was the point for them to buy they would have bought it form a christian religious suppliers like booka and other things they sell.
God knows what else we buy that is not true, so this is another one or may not be.
That's my $.02.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:19 AM   #128 (permalink)
 
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Default The Olive wood story...! part 2

Right people, the time has come to get the show on the road...!

I apologise for those with a genuine interest in the truth, for the slightly delay in providing the second part of the "Olive wood story..." (2). I have repeatable requested some extra time as I only realised that my first and original "Presentation" complete files, on this very same issue were lost from a unexpected major failure in one of my main computer hard-drives, a few months ago. I actually only realise that this large folder was gone after I started looking for it, at the beginning of this thread.

While some though that was a joke or a convenient way to get out of the "heat", I was in fact at loss to me with nearly 4 weeks of work gone...! This Presentation is not as complex as my previous one, that was made to be published but "they" decided not to publish it and nor pay me for my work but, that's another story...! ( A good sign of the powers "people in some places" and money behind the whole thing...!)

Anyway, I've spent most of the week searching my pics folders (many thousands of pics) for replacement pics and I endup finding some of the originals, others taken on other times and some new ones that I have to prepare for this Demonstration/Presentation.

I attempted to put it all in a slide-show type display but the maximum times allowed between pics was still too fast for pics with large legends so I decided to use my Photobucket account to create a dedicated Album for this Presentation, containing 72 pictures...!

The only thing you have to do to see it, is start from Picture #1 and click on its thumbnail added to this post (bellow). After opening/taken to my Photobucket Album, you simple click next when you are done with the pic showing, and so forth...! Be aware that 98% of the pics are mine, and all have a legend with some text written on it. Have a good read but have particularly a good look, is important that you can connect what you are seeing with what I'm saying, this allow you to have a better understanding of thoughts, experience and message.

Click "next" every time you want to go to the next pic, they are all numbered and in numerical order, their order as significance for the flow of the message I'm trying to share. Believe it, don't believe it, is all up to you, if what I'm sharing isn't enough and clear enough, nothing will...!

Why would I want to put myself constantly in this "difficult" situation some may ask, is evident that I have some unfinished business with this issue and unless a see some changes to correct my claim, I will continue to make this same claim over and over again. In a perfect world, people would be tanking me for exposing such scam, and to put myself in front of the "bull" all the time, instead I have made more enemies than what I would like but, in the end of the day, I know that I will doing a big favour to a lot of people, while others thing the opposite is true.

The fact that I have some Olive wood and I share most of it with anyone that is willing to pay a fair amount for it, has nothing to do with the claim I'm making. In reality, is the simple fact that I have had in my pass an extensive working experience with all aspects of the Olive Tree, as explained on part (I), and a continued passion for all woods including the one that was always very special to me, the Olive Tree that, I feel very strongly about this very wrong scam and those particularly target. Is BOW the only Olive wood in the world...??? absolutely not, does people know that there are many other places on hearth where one can get Olive wood...??? have you checked what is available in your own country...??? Can one get Olive wood with identical or even superior qualities/figure, etc..., locally or elsewhere...??? absolutely yes..! any reason why one wants to pay twice or more, for a piece of Olive wood, and continue "feeding" the scam...??? you tell me...!
What would happen if someone would start to flood the market with $1 high grade Olive wood pen blanks...??? would you care then, if wasn't tagged as BOW and be supplied with a "certificate of authenticity"...??? would you buy them...???

I have tried to demonstrate here, for those that didn't know already by following my work for some years, in wood related forums, I'm very honourable to my word and I don't take kindly insinuations of dishonesty and misrepresentation of my actions, however I've learnt that the best way to keep safe is to have my friends close and my enemies closer...!

I have promised that, I would give you something and that is exactly what I'm doing. For those that feel that nothing of this have any value to them or that is not giving the answers they want, I'm sorry, this is all you are going to get.

According to some legal advice I requested, in regards to a couple of emails copies I added in this final Presentation, the value of the originals are not compromised or less valued in a Court of Law. Names and any other information omitted on those documents, will NOT be revealed to anyone here regardless, the only place where those and any other original evidence will ever be revealed to, will be to a judge in a Court case situation.

This will end my contribution to this thread, I've spent enough of my time with it for now, is time for you all to digest it and do with the information whatever you feel right, that will be yours and only decision...!

Thank you for your patience...!

PS: Don't forget to have another look at those video links I gave you a few post back, in it you will see what the situation in Bethlehem is in regards to the olive trees, all larger trees being bulldozed and burnt in most cases and all the pics from the trees that have had all its tops cut off as a the most hurtful thing anyone could ever do to those people. You see the size of those trees and you can see also perfectly that they are so young that they have almost non-existent heartwood in them.

Another thing that has been playing with my head/mind is the possibility that some of the best Olive trees have been ripped off the ground and taken somewhere, you see actually some large trees without any branches chained to a building somewhere. I wonder what sort of deals where made with those that ripped them out, to keep all the wood and sell it as "blessed" "symbol of Peace" "sacred tree" and off-course BOW. I wonder what religious people would thing if they found out that the wood they are buying has come from these trees that represent everything the Olive tree shouldn't, revenge, cruelty, punishment, religious sacrilege, terror, and all the worse reasons/motives a human has created and justified to impose their race superiority among others...! I really wonder...!

Maybe something that I will look into, in the near future...!

Here is the Presentation starting point...! (double click on it!)

Pic1



Geezz....look at that "viewers" count go...!!!!

Cheers
George
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Last edited by robutacion; 09-24-2010 at 01:16 AM. Reason: add text
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:25 PM   #129 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for the pics George. I enjoyed your analysis and pictures. However, I don't think this presentation proves anything (except that you have some awesome olive wood in Australia).
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