Where does Bethlehem Olive Wood Come From?

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Padre

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I am starting this thread because of this thread. I made a comment in that thread that started a whole discussion of where BOW really comes from. This comment hijacked the original posters question. So, I have started this thread to continue the discussion:

WHERE DOES BOW COME FROM?

This is my original statement:
I have been to Israel 4 times now, hoping to go back again soon. Made friends with the Nissan brothers in Bethlehem. Efram and George are both good folks and they have quite the factory in their store basement. I used to get bulk wood from them, but they don't sell it anymore.

I have resorted to buying mine from Ebay, and it comes directly from Israel. However, another pen turner told me that some, if not most, of the time the wood comes from California, is shipped to Bethlehem and just re-posted in Bethlehem and shipped back. Sigh.

George (Robutacion) added some information here and here , here ,here and here about how most BOW is from Italy.

Now here are some more questions for us to ponder:

1. When I order my olivewood from Ebay, it comes to me in a box from either Bethlehem or Jerusalem. Since it is "FROM" there, does that make it BOW, or JOW?

2. See attached thumbnails. When my wood comes in these boxes it come with a bunch of "Authenticity Certificates." Picture 1. Does this make it authentic? It simply states the wood is "from Bethlehem, Jerusalem/The Holy Land." Being imported to Israel, unboxed, sent to Jerusalem, Bethlehem, etc., reboxed, and then shipped, does this not make it "FROM" these places? For instance, if I buy a gift at JC Penney's, give it to my wife, I say it is FROM me. But I didn't make it/grow it or do anything other than buy it. Can't the same reasoning apply to BOW/JOW?

3. In the same box I get stickers that say "MADE IN BETHLEHEM HOLY LAND OLIVE WOOD" Wow. Am I supposed to put these stickers on my pens even though they are MADE in Manchester, Connecticut? See Picture 2.

I guess is could be a matter of semantics (what does the word FROM really imply?).

It could be a matter of trust.

It could be much todo about nothing!!
 

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mredburn

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Would your client, who is buying a pen with that particular wood because of the significance of its place of origin to them, be upset if they knew it had been processed like that? It comes down to what is technically correct and what is morally responsible. Technically you received it as stated. You can justify it anyway you like but if you disclosed that it originated elsewhere would that affect the sale.
Mike
 

ToddMR

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As for the stickers I would think they mean your item "pen" is made FROM that specific material. That is how I read it. And I am with you, I so would not put it on a pen, maybe on the box on the bottom, a pen tube, something like that. Its like putting a sticker on the bumper of my car, it just makes it look cheap imo.
 

KenV

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The market and puffery in relics and such has a history of centuries. There have been a number of cases where a summation of body parts from Saints claimed in multiple locations exceeded those of several bodies.

Why is this the case with pen blanks -- there are about 26 blanks to a board foot of lumber. At 2 bucks a blanks -- over $50 a board foot At 4 bucks a blank, that is over $100 a board foot -- pretty fancy wood price.

And the european olive is being grown all over the world from California to Libia. (note that this is not the same species as the winter hardy shelter belt tree known as Russian Olive).
 

broitblat

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Regardless of the source, it is still beautiful wood and I enjoy working with it. However, I would expect it to be from trees that were growing in Israel. If that is not the case, I would not be comfortable representing anything I made from the wood as BOW/JOW.

-Barry
 

ed4copies

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Recently, I decided Exotics was going to handle Olive Wood. So, I sent a number of emails to various sources, located in Israel. The answers to those emails were numerous. My "mind's picture" is a "touristy area" where every little family makes trinkets from local olive wood, then sell the cut offs. If you picture "old town" in Chicago in the 70's or St. Augustine Fl--to this day--you have the same "mind picture" I have.

Each of the people who replied to me (looking for wholesale--500 or more) was in the same price range and most did not know anything about shipping to the USA. I selected one who had been recommended by an American customer of Exotics. This was two months ago.

The wood arrived today. From Israel, shipped by boat.

So I am reasonably certain the wood is local to the Holy Land. Most important, to me, it IS nicely figured and will make REALLY NICE pens. I paid a premium, but got wood that is worth the money.

It was definitely shipped from Israel--I asked for Jerusalem Olive wood, because we have a number of BOW suppliers already. I ended up getting some of each, because I was told that hand-picking for high figure was easier if I allowed them to use both types.

TO ME!!!! It is important not to call a man a liar unless you have strong evidence that what he is saying is not true--usually FOR ME, that means I have nearly indisputable PROOF he is saying something that is not factual. It is only a LIE, if he KNEW it was not factual. So, for me, this is Holy Land Olive. From Jerusalem and Bethlehem. I will sell it as such and, if you choose to purchase, you may sell it with great confidence that what you are saying is true.

Unless you are IN Israel and watch the wood harvested, there will be no certitude!! But I can live with a 2% uncertainty!!

FWIW
 

mredburn

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It seems you have a couple of choices. Take your supplier at his word until he is proved wrong, or try and verify his supply chain. Or do as Ed did control the supply chain yourself by ordering direct from Isrial..
 

PenMan1

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If the product SHIPS from Israel, it is an Israeli product. At least that is how the Government of the United States and the Government of Isarel see it.

If that definition is good enough for these two world power Governments, then who am I to question?

When my BOW comes in with postage from Bethleham, Isarel, WITH a certificate of authenticity, why would I question its origin? Olive wood is plentiful in Israel AND by getting the wood from Italy, Israel would have to pay duties coming into the country and leaving the country.

The reason BOW is hard to get right now has nothing to do with the availability of wood, but instead, the hassle of getting shipments out of Israel. When the country blockaids its port to keep weapons out of Gaza, it also slows the shipments in and out of Israel. Italy (or Greece, for that matter) are not fondly regarded by the Israelis. If Israel can produce their own export products without involving Greece or Italy, you can bet that they will.
 

Padre

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Ed, I can assure you Israel is NOTHING like 70's Chicago or St. Augustine of today.

It is a combination of Old World/New World. Take Jerusalem for instance. When you mention that city, most people's "mind's eye" thinks of the "Old City." You know, the walled part. But today Jerusalem is a bustling metropolis that the "Old City" is in the middle of. Large, beautiful new hotels, businesses, etc.

Yet, go immediately outside Jerusalem, and you have what most people would see as "Afghanistan" or some other poor third world country. Even Nazareth, Bethlehem, etc. are not comparable to Jerusalem or some of the other modern cities in Israel.

The "countryside" is very barren, south from Jerusalem is the 'wilderness' consisting of desert, rocks, mountains of rocks, etc. To the north lies lush territory around the Sea of Galilee (Lake of Gennesaret).

I have spent time in Israel traveling the various byways and highways, and very much going off the beaten path.

Are there olive trees in Israel? Absolutely! Are there lots of olive trees in Israel? No.

Can you still get olive wood from Israel? Absolutely, and I think your due diligence is more than exemplary. I have now found my supplier. :)
 
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PenMan1

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I guess is could be a matter of semantics (what does the word FROM really imply?).


That sounds like something Bill Clinton would say:). What iIS is?:))).
 

spnemo

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All the COA says is that the wood is authentic olive wood and that wood is from the Holy Land. So if they ship any olive wood from Jerusalem then the COA is accurate (even though it could be misleading).
 

ed4copies

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Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.

But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Sounds like an "existence" not a "life".:confused::confused: I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.
 

Andrew Arndts

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So this begs the question...

What American Governing overseer of such imported items. Who would be the office to see if this is actual BOW/JOW or not? I would assume the Federal Trade Commission. We are concerned citizens and if we are in agreement that perhaps we need to get a handle on this. Since the price warrants a Billions of our dollars being spent... Other woodworking forums might want to get involved with us.
 

PenMan1

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Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.

But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Sounds like an "existence" not a "life".:confused::confused: I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.


Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
 

Smitty37

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Bethlehem or Jerusalem....well guys, there really isn't much difference is there. Bethlehem is a very short distance from Jerusalem no more than about 7 miles. It makes perfect sense that the wood would ship from Jerusalem especially if coming by plane.
 

Smitty37

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Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.

But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Sounds like an "existence" not a "life".:confused::confused: I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.


Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Wouldn't that be a Uzi???
 

Padre

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Bethlehem or Jerusalem....well guys, there really isn't much difference is there. Bethlehem is a very short distance from Jerusalem no more than about 7 miles. It makes perfect sense that the wood would ship from Jerusalem especially if coming by plane.

You are right Smitty, Bethlehem is just about 7 miles, a little less, from Jerusalem. But it might as well be in another country at this point.
 

Padre

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Not saying where the wood comes from or how it got there, I have no idea.
But on a similar vein:

I took a trip to an old marble quarry in Vermont. I had been there years ago and I
remember having a great time at the marble museum/gift shop and seeing the tour.
But now this old Vermont quarry is no longer a local company. It was purchased by
a large Canadian conglomerate. They, in turn, lease the underground rights to another
company who removes the marble and sends it to Italy where it is cut and polished.
Then it is shipped back to the US as "Italian Marble" There is a monument company
right up the street who buys this same marble he's been using for decades, only now
it comes from Italy, even though it still comes from just up the street where they had
been buying it since the 50's.

I'm just sayin..

Well now, that is interesting! I guess the "FROM," as long as it is not modified, like in "originates from" is what all that matters. I wonder how this applies to a lot of other goods we get.
 

Smitty37

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Shipping to and from

Since the shipping both ways .... to the Holy Land and then from the Holy Land would be a bulky heavy kind of thing I would almost think that shipping from CA to Israel than from Israel after cutting into blanks would put a pretty good squeeze on profits, Unless you can really get a big mark up.

BTW...as near as I can tell as an international shipper neither the US, nor any other government assumes that if it ships from Israel it is Israeli....there is a place on every customs declaration form to insert the "Country of Origin" So even though the source is my store all of my international shipments list China or Taiwan as the country of origin.
 

PenMan1

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The Country of Origin on Customs manifest is Israel. If that is good enough for Uncle Sam and the Israeli Government, it's good enough for me.
 

PenMan1

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Chip (Padre), "due diligence" sounds very good. But, in good conscience, let's call it "cheap". I wanted to find a source that would eliminate the "middlemen" and put the money in someone's hands that could USE it. So, I went through a little more work than "taking the guy everyone knows" in Israel--he's already got enough business.

But I still like my mental picture better than the reality you paint---can I keep mine and add a few random military weapons???:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Sounds like an "existence" not a "life".:confused::confused: I hope the money I spent makes this family's life a little brighter.


Yeah, the "real" truth comes out. Ed wants a supplier that can ship BOW wrapped around an Israeli AK47:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Wouldn't that be a Uzi???

Potato... poTATo:biggrin::biggrin:
 

Dudley Young

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I like olive wood, but personally don't care if it comes from the so called "holy land". In my option the Israelis can take the olive wood and jam it and in that case i guess Greece would help.
 

Seer

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If we think about it the original BOW came from Italy and according to everything I read the trees are from that era and had been planted by the romans so who is to say where they originally came from. 6 of one half dozen of another. I saw plain olivewood and bow at rockler and you could not tell the difference except the price was double for the bow. I bought some off ebay and it is a very plain wood nothing exceptional about it except where it came from. Just my 2 cents worht.
 
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Rmartin

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The cards and stickers you picture are the same as the ones I have received. Several years ago, I asked the same question you are asking. Someone whom I respected posted on a Yahoo group that these were from the real deal. He had personally visited the family which harvests the olive wood during the yearly pruning (it's illegal to cut down an olive tree in Israel).
 

Seer

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The only thing keeping California or any Olivewood from becoming BOW is the seller's integrity. Anyone can make stuckers and such and stick it on anythin and the unsuspecting buyer would never know now would they. Integrity is the only difference.
 
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Bethlehem or Jerusalem....well guys, there really isn't much difference is there. Bethlehem is a very short distance from Jerusalem no more than about 7 miles. It makes perfect sense that the wood would ship from Jerusalem especially if coming by plane.

Actually it would probably come from Tel Aviv if by plane... that the the primary airport out of Israel.
 
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What American Governing overseer of such imported items. Who would be the office to see if this is actual BOW/JOW or not? I would assume the Federal Trade Commission. We are concerned citizens and if we are in agreement that perhaps we need to get a handle on this. Since the price warrants a Billions of our dollars being spent... Other woodworking forums might want to get involved with us.

The FTC probably would not be involved.. U.S. Customs would verify the origin and legality of the export to the U.S., and the legality of the import into the U.S., plus they would collect any duties due.... and since it is a wood product, would also have to be cleared by the Department of Agriculture with all the pertinent phyto certificates.
 
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The only thing keeping California or any Olivewood from becoming BOW is the seller's integrity. Anyone can make stuckers and such and stick it on anythin and the unsuspecting buyer would never know now would they. Integrity is the only difference.

My opinion also... I have several pieces of Olivewood with cute little certificates... I don't use the certificates and tell my customers that the wood is Olivewood and some of it MAY be from the holy land, but I can't verify nor confirm. If they like it, they buy, otherwise they don't.
 
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The Country of Origin on Customs manifest is Israel. If that is good enough for Uncle Sam and the Israeli Government, it's good enough for me.


The Certificate of Origin is a rather nebulous document... depending on how you word things as to what you can claim as the country of origin. A commercial invoice that originated in Israel, would likely show the country of origin as Israel... by U.S. customs interpretation, if a product has been significantly modified in one country, that can become the country of origin... the wood shipped in log form and imported into one country, then processed, dried, cut and repackaged so that it no longer resembles it's original form in another country, could then claim that country of origin from the country processing the wood, even though it actually grew in another country....

I sell olivewood products as Olivewood... I don't use the COA's I have received because from the looks of them, they have been reprinted many times and aren't significantly believable... just my take on the issue.
And so far, I don't think it has made a significant difference in my sales.
 

mwenman

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I don't use the certificates nor the stickers and like others, just state that it is Olive wood that may or may not have come from the Holy Land.

One would almost have to wonder if all olive trees in the world are clones from trees that were originally from Bethlehem. If so, then technically all olive blanks are BOW, but I'm sure that none of has enough time or beer available to be able to sufficiently research this for a difinitive answer.
 

robutacion

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This same subject had me banned from 2 forums already, the Australian wood workers forum and the Canadian Paradise forum, with the later removing any and all, "signs" that I have had been a member, and I was there nearly 18 months. There where lots of people in high places there selling BOW and they didn't like me, exposing the issue and loose sales, as people started to ask questions, they couldn't or din't want to answer. Lets see where this will take me here...!
I'm not going to be surprised if someone from their side will come here, screaming that was something else that got me banned...! Off-course it was...!

The truth, I tell you the truth and I will be clear and direct as always, maybe this time a little more direct as seems some people can't read between the lines, I have been telling the truth from day one, the problem as been that, the issue as been segmented in so many threads and posts that is nearly impossible to follow the full story. It is happening at the moment here, from some of the comments I've read, some people have not seen or read some of the information that I had shared in the pass and very recently so, they are indeed asking questions that have already been answered by myself.

Someone mention recently that, "was funny that no one has come to support my claim...!" so I ask, why is that...???
The answer has a few turns and directions but it comes to this, we have the fellows buying the Olive from Italy and process it at home (Israel) and sell all over the world as BOW (with all the stickers and printed certificates) as this has become a very profitable business, particularly among the religious groups which are the ones that made the situation in the first place. Was their faith and believes that put the high price that BOW has today, they were the ones prepare to pay any money to have a piece of Olive wood from the Holy Land.
They were the ones to travel to Bethlehem (Israel) to get that small piece of Holy Olive wood from the source. This all started long, long ago and for some time the existent Olive wood was sufficient to the religious peregrines mostly Christians but not only.

Leaving Israel, we have those (particularly in countries like ours, but not only) that are buying local Olive wood or even cut it themselves and sell it as BOW with the respective printed certificates, after all it makes the whole thing believable, huh...??? remember that the word BOW represents double, triple or even more of its value in raw form, right...???

Then, we have those that know that it couldn't be BOW but they join the gang and make a good buck out of it, by continuing the scam, as they are buying it cheap with certificates that they know aren't real/authentic but hey, its all business, huh...? so who cares...? You buy and don't ask questions so, its working, right...???

And about those pen maker fellows that are either buying any of the Olive pen blanks that come with the certificate only for the certificate as they know that they can get, in most cases, better figured Olive wood than those that came with the certificates, from local sources cheap, swap the blanks, make the pen and mark it as authentic BOW (with the respective certificate, stickers and whatever they can come up with, to ask for a premium price...!)

I saw some of these fellows actually making pens from both of these type (origin...???) woods and display them together so that they can claim that the $200 (as an example only, gets much higher than this, sometimes...!) pretty pen, with the certificate, is the true BOW and no other Olive wood (and they point/show the $30-$40 pen made of the less figured Olive wood) could ever produce such quality and figure. Some go even further saying that the wood is from trees 2.000 year old, blessed and use as shade from Jesus himself...!:eek: If you are a serious religious person, and if all this is said with some well rehearsed act and face expressions to match, some people will believe it without question and those $200 will come out of the wallets quick as a flash.

That's enough as examples (realities) even tough, is no question that not everyone either selling Olive wood or making pens out of Olive, will be in these groups so, lets ask the question, which answers the question made by this member on another post/thread, why would these people be interested in come forwards and say anything...??? "they" really hate my guts because I keep bringing the subject up to the open, hoping that one day someone with enough money and drive, decides to have blanks tested for DNA and have the origin of all these BOW blanks sources, sorted once and for all, stopping this very profitable black market and scam that has made already a lot of people very rich for too long, at the cost of peoples sincere and honest religious believes...!

I'm just starting..., this is going to be a long thread and listen to my words, someone will try to have this all thread closed down, before it gets deeper into the issue/problem, there will be a number of possible claims/reasons/excuses why the administration, particularly Curtis, should have this thread removed, lets see how long will take...!

Why is this such a issue for me, some will ask...???, bare with me, you will have your answer and much more, in times to come, and off-course if someone decides to accuse me of having a commercial interest or a conflict of interest because I also sell Olive wood, one of my 44 local wood species I collect and work with since I retired,(for those that didn't know so, I suggest you to read a little about what I do and have been doing for some time, before you jump in...!:wink:), keep tuned, I will show you how wrong you are...!:wink::biggrin:

I'm going to recharge now and regroup, this issue has been tormenting me for long enough and I've used and unimaginable amount of time and energy on it so, stay tuned...!

Cheers
George
 
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workinforwood

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Ed's comments make sense to me. And when Padre tells me there's Olive tree's in Israel but not tons of them, I really start to wonder what's up myself. In my mind, Bethlehem Olive wood is from Bethlehem Israel, not just from Israel. The historical significance would be that you are getting wood that is very old, like a couple thousand years old, and if it is not old, perhaps the significance is that it is simply from Bethlehem, birthplace of Jesus. But, the sales of BOW are huge throughout the world and the world is a huge place. The only way I can imagine sales of wood from the historic place to have a chance would be to wipe out the hole city and plant groves of Olive trees. So my belief is that much of the wood is imported and simply called BOW and tagged and mailed from Israel. I believe the whole thing has become a scam...possibly started as legit but I can't see how it could be any more.

In Hawaii there's hardly any sea shells. There's not many sea creatures with shells there. 99.9 % of any creatures there that do have shells on them get picked up by the waves and smashed with incredible force against all the lava rocks on shore and in the ocean, turning the shells into course sand. Yet, the sales of Hawaiian sea shells are huge. Everywhere you go, there are Sea shells and necklaces and other jewelry items. I bet the shells are all imported from Florida. Is this off topic? No..it completely relates. You want Bethlehem Olivewood because it has religious significance. You want Hawaiian sea shells because the land is mystical and you have never been there before, thus you want to take back a memorabilia of the island that reminds you of your time there. But...you most likely scammed.
 

randyrls

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If you picture "old town" in Chicago in the 70's or St. Augustine Fl--to this day--you have the same "mind picture" I have.


GOD Ed! That comment brings back memories. I spent an entire afternoon watching a glass blower making a spun glass sailing ship. must have been 2 feet high!
 

rjwolfe3

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Still waiting for proof that our suppliers are knowingly doing this. Until then I am willing to take my suppliers at their word. I am not naive, I know that this possibility exists. But I prefer proof over someone's opinion.
 

randyrls

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But ...but ... according to the Photos section of IAP, 99% of
all olive wood must come from Bethlehem!
must be a rilly rilly big forest, that Bethlehem.. :rolleyes:

The Olive wood for pens comes from trimmings. Just as grape vines need to be trimmed to keep them producing grapes, the olive trees need to be trimmed to keep them producing olives.

Ghassan Darveesh (sp?) the proprietor of BOW appeared one day on the YAHOO Penturners group and offered some wood for pens. I took him up on the offer and I love getting BOW from him.
 
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Here is the customs paperwork of the BOW I am getting.
I have to take the seller word on this and it is what I am doing for a while until proved otherwise. I have a couple of thousand of these blanks in stock and mainly using it for myself/kits.

Sure it only proofs of where it comes from but that puts me in the clear.

The problem is not only the BOW and where BOW comes from but there are so many ways that sellers here and all over the Internet deceive people by using lingo like ( Handpicked, Private Stash, Private source, Best I Have ever seen, the list goes on and on) just to triple the price and make people believe it is the best or better than what it really is.
That to me is just as bad


Since we talk about Jerusalem , Shall those with no sins throw the stones.
 

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Smitty37

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Olivewood market

I question that the market for Bethlehem olive wood is actually that big...It has special meaning to some Christians, but certainly not to all.

Nearly all of the items I've seen made from "BOW" are quite small using far less wood than needed for a Pen Blank and to be honest, I think there would be as big or bigger market in the US for finished pens with cross or fish clips made from olivewood than for pen blanks. Even those, I suspect would sell better (as momentos of the trip) in Israel than in the USA.

Maybe someone here can educate me but I just don't see a market for millions of BOW blanks or even all olivewood blanks from any source in the USA. Let's let our ego's go for a second or two and recognize, that in the overall scheme of things pen turners are pretty small potatoes in the market for wood. In addition, with the hundreds of species of wood and all of the plastics and other materials available BOW is pretty small potatoes in the pen blank market.

The price doesn't even seem that high to me, at PSI (at $13.95 for 4 blanks) it is less than half the price of most of the dyed burls and not all that much more than some of the other exotic woods

It almost seems to me that getting upset about this subject is much ado over nothing....but it has been an interesting thread.
 
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Skye

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Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
3,487
Location
Rock Hill, SC
I didnt read the 5 pages because the answer is simple to me. If the tree the branch was harvested from was sitting in the soil of The Holy Land, then it's where the blank is from.
 
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