What is high end

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Smitty37

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I see a lot of discussion about "high-end" component sets. Tell me, just what price level is high end? Do you all think in the same terms when you say high end....I'm asking about kit prices not finished product.
 
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Smitty37

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Not looking for names

Jr.'s, and their full size versions,Majestic Jr and full size,Lotus,Emperor and Imperial.
What I'm looking for is the price levels $$$ not models or names...most of them don't mean anything to me because I have no idea of their price.
 

nativewooder

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I think it depends on your perspective and your wallet! You guys who are professional and run a business are very different from old fa#%s like me who live off Social Security and have to watch every penny. Plus this is a hobby that I do for the fun of it. If I should sell any pens at the few shows our club participates in, the proceeds will go to the club. I will only recover my cost so I can do it again. But be advised that very little has sold for the last three years despite the availability of many wealthy people. That includes pens, bowls, museum pieces, vases, boxes, jewelry, and everything else.
 

OKLAHOMAN

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From low to high $18 for Jr Gent to $64 for Gold/Rhodium Imperial F/P, my biggest seller is the Jr. Statesman accourding to plating and rollerbal or F/p $26.50-$38.50
so you can see there's a large spread of what some call high end.
 

alphageek

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Smitty .. for me $25 for the kit or higher is what really seems to be the edge of "high end". I start getting to that point, then it really means premium blank too, and need to be sure its unique to deserve $$$ sales.
 

DCBluesman

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Ball park $15 for ballpoints, $20 for roller balls/fountain pens. Then there's the exclusive end. Roller balls and fountains at $30+.
 

ed4copies

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You fool yourself if you (all yous, not you-Smitty) believe that dollars dictate quality.

The recent statement that one kit from WoodCraft and Berea HAVE to be the same because their price is the same betrays a level of naivete that amazed me in this group.

Pen kits are priced by the distributors based on what they think they can GET for the kit. They evaluate where their kit "fits into" the market and stick a pricetag on it.

Then, if they can BS you into believing it's the same as another kit that uses a higher quality plating----AHA!!! they just improved their MARGIN!!!

Now, enter a new variable. The "time-honored" vendors are changing their suppliers. I believe this is an effort to reduce cost of components (you are welcome to disagree, if you choose). I'm sure they HOPE to maintain their quality---of both operation of the components and durability of the components. BUT no one KNOWS if these new "manufacturers" will be any good or not.

So, buying kits is a crapshoot.

Berea seems to stand alone in maintaining their stream of supply---they are continuing to have their kits made by the same manufacturing lines in Taiwan--their "partners". This means they will have a tighter control over quality, and their prices will probably go up.

What you don't seem to consider is the "semi-fixed cost" of transportation. When you ship a product half way around the world, it adds dollars to each pound of freight, not pennies. Additionally, the dollar is currently very weak on the international market and unlikely to get much better, any time soon---so there will be cost increases based on exchange rates---another cost completely uncontrollable and completely separate from the quality of the components you purchase.

So, if you try to equate price with quality, make sure you figure FOB point of origin, in local currency---THEN your question makes SOME sense.
 

OKLAHOMAN

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Ed, Leroy asked for pricing of what we consider high end, not quality (although I'd put the quality of the mentioned pens as good as any). I've sold a little over 1,000 pens and most CSUSA pens and have had less than a handfull that gave any problems most were customer related ie:fountain pen won't write, had the cap pulled off by a frind etc. Have had the threading issue and CSUSA took care of them no questions asked.
Now I'll wait to see if the Jr.'s change but so far they haven't....so far
 

ed4copies

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Roy,
I don't mean to demean anyone, least of all CSUSA. I have used their kits for years and have been VERY SATISFIED. I believe their customer service is unparalleled.

However, as the financial companies say, "Historical results are not meant as future guarantees".

As they change their supply source, they take a risk. YOU may want to take that risk with them and certainly you can. But you should get a lower cost, because they will be getting a lower cost---I doubt you will.

NO insult to CSUSA or any other supplier--again, that's MARGIN---A GOOD THING!!!!
 

DCBluesman

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What a bravo sierra post, Ed. I've made a few pens and I know what high end is. High end for $1.65? Heck no. High end for $4-5? Heck no. I've seen the rubbish that all of the distributors offer as a $6-10 fountain pen. Now if you ask what are the most durable or finest made or closest to spec or finest materials, then perhaps you have a leg to stand on. But I think more than a few of us know that high end kits cost more than $5-10 per fountain pen.
 

ed4copies

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I believe you are mixing apples and oranges, Lou.

I know of no sierra fountain. And, I don't BELIEVE I have alluded to any single style of pen--if so it was NOT my purpose.

Far as I know, both fountain pens and ballpoints all have to be transported to the USA. Fountain pens weigh a little more--again the freight haulers don't care WHAT it is, it's just dollars per pound of weight.

And, you certainly know the Dollar is weak, as I stated.
 

jttheclockman

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I read the question abit different too because we had this topic on what is quality and we all saw where that went.

I make the distiction in price of kits but also kits themselves. I do not call slimlines a highend kit and all the dirrivitives of this kit such as the apprentce and so forth. Yes adding better plating makes it more expensive but still is a run of the mill kit.

You get into the Elegant beauties and Sierra line is where I start calling these midrange kits.

I get into the kits with the more bling the high end kits. Kits that start costing $23 and up are highend in my book.
 

ed4copies

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What a bravo sierra post, Ed. I've made a few pens and I know what high end is. High end for $1.65? Heck no. High end for $4-5? Heck no. I've seen the rubbish that all of the distributors offer as a $6-10 fountain pen. Now if you ask what are the most durable or finest made or closest to spec or finest materials, then perhaps you have a leg to stand on. But I think more than a few of us know that high end kits cost more than $5-10 per fountain pen.

Quote inserted, just to maintain continuity should later editing occur.
 

DCBluesman

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Perhaps you should re-read the question. It dealt with the price mark for high end kits. As for the Sierra, it's not in my definition of high-end. And cost* was not part of the question.
 
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jttheclockman

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I see a lot of discussion about "high-end" component sets. Tell me, just what price level is high end? Do you all think in the same terms when you say high end....I'm asking about kit prices not finished product.


Cost was the question.:) OOPs maybe a symantics thing going on here.
 

ed4copies

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Based on the premise that high end is strictly dictated by high price, every successful forgery would be high end.

So, I differ with the premise.
 

greenmtnguy

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I agree with Chris. $20-$25 is my break point. The more shows I do, the higher the bar climbs. Nothing worse than talking to a customer and noticing a defect in the hardware, or demonstrating a pen and having something not operate correctly. That first impression is awfully important when you are selling an impulse item.
 

Andrew Arndts

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Wow Ed, with all that in mind I might as well get back on stage... :rolleyes:

To me a High End kit and a High Price Kit is not the same. A lot of what I see are High Priced kits are mostly the pretty ornate Fountain pens. A High End kit, has to be one that doesn't dent the wallet above $10 maybe $20. Goes together smooth and tight.
All in all, perhaps what makes a High End is the final completed pen with the artisan's style.

Now if I may say this. Lets take the Civil War Pen from PSI. That particular pen kit in all reality is for a narrow market of those that are either Civil War buff's, Reenactor's and Historians. So in my mind it is a High End kit. Yes it goes against what I have stated above. however I feel it still qualifies. Now again a pen kit that has a narrow market is the Teachers pen. Though it is a unique it's design is too simple to be High end. perhaps highly prized by Teachers. maybe an old school CPA who still uses paper worksheets.

I guess what is boils down to is the bling.
 

maxwell_smart007

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What apple is tasty?
Which shade of blue is best?
What car has pep?
What pen kit is high end...

These are all questions with various answers depending on your own perspectives and what constitutes 'apple-ness' or 'blue-ness'

More important questions are: which pen kits are the most durable?
which pen kits have the least inherent defects?
Which pen kits look best with which blanks?

I think the craftsmanship of the finished product, the durability of the finish and the durability of the hardware, and the overall quality of the pen makes it high end, rather than the cost of the hardware used to assemble the pen. A fifty dollar kit furnished with a Mesquiteman patented Cat Poo pen blank is a wasted fifty dollar pen kit! :)

By the same token, a chrome streamline can be made to look elegant as well. But for me, high-end pens are those that take a rollerball refill - ballpoint pens aren't 'different' enough from regular pens to demand high prices...
 

Russianwolf

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I don't think price defines "High-end". To me "high-end" is defined by sophistication.

Take Cigar kits. Most wouldn't consider them in and of themselves high end. but then you have the Ultra-cigars and people may start changing their tunes. I myself don't like the ultra even. But when I put together a Two-Tone Cigar from WoodPenPro, it just looks stylish and sophisticated. Something that stands out from the other cigars.

Now Cigar kits start at $4-$5 and go to about $10
The Ultras are $12 or so, and the new Cubano (the only other one I consider High-end) can be $14
The Two-tones I get for $6.75 before any discounts.

So to me, price doesn't mean squat when it comes to high-end. It's all about looks.
 
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lazyguy

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I don't think price defines "High-end". To me "high-end" is defined by sophistication.

Take Cigar kits. Most wouldn't consider them in and of themselves high end. but then you have the Ultra-cigars and people may start changing their tunes. I myself don't like the ultra even. But when I put together a Two-Tone Cigar from WoodPenPro, it just looks stylish and sophisticated. Something that stands out from the other cigars.

Now Cigar kits start at $4-$5 and go to about $10
The Ultras are $12 or so, and the new Cubano (the only other one I consider High-end) can be $14
The Two-tones I get for $6.75 before any discounts.

So to me, price doesn't mean squat when it comes to high-end. It's all about looks.


Well said
 

alphageek

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I don't think price defines "High-end". To me "high-end" is defined by sophistication.

Take Cigar kits. Most wouldn't consider them in and of themselves high end. but then you have the Ultra-cigars and people may start changing their tunes. I myself don't like the ultra even. But when I put together a Two-Tone Cigar from WoodPenPro, it just looks stylish and sophisticated. Something that stands out from the other cigars.

Now Cigar kits start at $4-$5 and go to about $10
The Ultras are $12 or so, and the new Cubano (the only other one I consider High-end) can be $14
The Two-tones I get for $6.75 before any discounts.

So to me, price doesn't mean squat when it comes to high-end. It's all about looks.

Thats interesting Mike. On one hand I agree with you on many aspects of this... I love some of the new cigars out there... And I agree that its all about looks...

Were I differ is that I have a hard time marketing something on any cigar as high end. For me one of the requirements for high end is that I can put a top refill (rollerball) in it or its a FP. That being said, the two tone (BT/platinum) cigar is really classy for what it is.

In regards to the OP's question about $$, the way I looked at was the reverse... Which kits do I look at and see as high end from a looks perspective and then see how much do they cost.

That being said.. my answer was still a "ballpark" and given my recent pen making, is more grey for me than ever. The range of kits seems to be growing and thus the middle ground is filling out too. The Triton kit is an example of that as its priced lower than similar looking products...
 

Smitty37

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Maybe

What apple is tasty?
Which shade of blue is best?
What car has pep?
What pen kit is high end...

These are all questions with various answers depending on your own perspectives and what constitutes 'apple-ness' or 'blue-ness'

More important questions are: which pen kits are the most durable?
which pen kits have the least inherent defects?
Which pen kits look best with which blanks?

I think the craftsmanship of the finished product, the durability of the finish and the durability of the hardware, and the overall quality of the pen makes it high end, rather than the cost of the hardware used to assemble the pen. A fifty dollar kit furnished with a Mesquiteman patented Cat Poo pen blank is a wasted fifty dollar pen kit! :)

By the same token, a chrome streamline can be made to look elegant as well. But for me, high-end pens are those that take a rollerball refill - ballpoint pens aren't 'different' enough from regular pens to demand high prices...

But they are not the question I asked. Assume that the asker is looking for the answer to the question he asked...All of those questions have been discussed. I see many discussions talking about high end kits and I wondered what price range people are thinking of, I am not asking about quality, or durability or anything else...PSI offers "High End Starter Packages" that include $6.75 Gatsby kits so obviously they think high end starts pretty low. That is the what I thought was a rather simple question I asked the members...what price do you think of when you think high end. Not what your taste in pen kits is, not what what vendors you prefer, not who you think makes the highest quality kits. If you don't have a price in mind when you say high end components then the answer is "I don't consider price when determining high-end"
 

maxwell_smart007

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But they are not the question I asked. Assume that the asker is looking for the answer to the question he asked...All of those questions have been discussed. I see many discussions talking about high end kits and I wondered what price range people are thinking of, I am not asking about quality, or durability or anything else...PSI offers "High End Starter Packages" that include $6.75 Gatsby kits so obviously they think high end starts pretty low. That is the what I thought was a rather simple question I asked the members...what price do you think of when you think high end. Not what your taste in pen kits is, not what what vendors you prefer, not who you think makes the highest quality kits. If you don't have a price in mind when you say high end components then the answer is "I don't consider price when determining high-end"

I disagree, Smitty - and I'll explain why.

So you know, I did read your post and all the responses to it - and thought about it for a while before responding. My post was just a reflection of the idea that asking 'what price makes a pen elegant or high-end' is a question that cannot be answered definitively without referring to the quality of a kit, or one's personal preference for looks and style.

There is so much involved in what makes a pen high end...many, many factors - but price is not one of them. I think that price has absolutely nothing to do with the equation, but rather one's personal preferences dictate the essence of high end 'pen-ness', and showing that was the intent in my post.

Is high-end the same as high quality? I think that it is. Is high quality dictated by price. No, it's not.
 

Smitty37

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never the less

Based on the premise that high end is strictly dictated by high price, every successful forgery would be high end.

So, I differ with the premise.

Then your answer would be that you don't associate kit price with "high end".....That would be an answer to the question asked.
 

Smitty37

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That's OK.

From low to high $18 for Jr Gent to $64 for Gold/Rhodium Imperial F/P, my biggest seller is the Jr. Statesman accourding to plating and rollerbal or F/p $26.50-$38.50
so you can see there's a large spread of what some call high end.
I expected a big range but what I was interested in is what the range is. I know that no one considers 3 dollar slimlines or comforts high end, even if they are plated in Black TN.
 

lazyguy

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Smitty, with your clarification in mind I think that generally kits that break the 18 dollar make are what I would consider the start of "high end" for me. Much of the conversation has been tangential to you original post because I think people have such a large variety of points that determine high end. For me it comes down to my scale of production. So when I spend 50-75 bucks on an order I want to get the most bangs for the buck while getting the styles I want. With that in mind the better plating in the RB & FP kits are in the "really high end" column. While the lesser plating's of the same kit general are on the mid range side. Just like that jewelry store ad so many years ago about the "3 C's." I consider high end based on for pens "Classy, Comfort and Cost" ratio. So I would say most kits that are 20ish or above are "high end" generally.
 

ed4copies

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Based on the premise that high end is strictly dictated by high price, every successful forgery would be high end.

So, I differ with the premise.

Then your answer would be that you don't associate kit price with "high end".....That would be an answer to the question asked.

No, Smitty, I typed MY answer, if you want to ask and answer the question yourself, just note that and I will stay out of the thread.

Otherwise, you seek my "Input"--which I gave you (and everyone else reading).
 

wolftat

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I have Gold Ti. slimlines that have a price tag of $200 on them, is that high end? The blank used and the finished product make a big difference in the end results. I sell some slimlines at the same or higher prices then the Jr. Gents and Jr. Statesman. The only thing I have found in selling a pen is that they are only worth what someone else is willing to pay for them.
 

Smitty37

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No

I have Gold Ti. slimlines that have a price tag of $200 on them, is that high end? The blank used and the finished product make a big difference in the end results. I sell some slimlines at the same or higher prices then the Jr. Gents and Jr. Statesman. The only thing I have found in selling a pen is that they are only worth what someone else is willing to pay for them.

But I didn't ask about the price of high end pens. Certainly I agree with what you say that it takes more than a kit to make a great pen and as near as I can tell high end on finished pens is whatever you'd like it to be. $100/$300/$500/$1500 and I suppose even higher.
 

Smitty37

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Hmmmm

But they are not the question I asked. Assume that the asker is looking for the answer to the question he asked...All of those questions have been discussed. I see many discussions talking about high end kits and I wondered what price range people are thinking of, I am not asking about quality, or durability or anything else...PSI offers "High End Starter Packages" that include $6.75 Gatsby kits so obviously they think high end starts pretty low. That is the what I thought was a rather simple question I asked the members...what price do you think of when you think high end. Not what your taste in pen kits is, not what what vendors you prefer, not who you think makes the highest quality kits. If you don't have a price in mind when you say high end components then the answer is "I don't consider price when determining high-end"

I disagree, Smitty - and I'll explain why.

So you know, I did read your post and all the responses to it - and thought about it for a while before responding. My post was just a reflection of the idea that asking 'what price makes a pen elegant or high-end' is a question that cannot be answered definitively without referring to the quality of a kit, or one's personal preference for looks and style.

There is so much involved in what makes a pen high end...many, many factors - but price is not one of them. I think that price has absolutely nothing to do with the equation, but rather one's personal preferences dictate the essence of high end 'pen-ness', and showing that was the intent in my post.

Is high-end the same as high quality? I think that it is. Is high quality dictated by price. No, it's not.

I didn't ask "what price makes a pen elegant or High-end" I asked about pen kit.
You realize you are telling me that I don't know what I asked? If you do not associate a price range in what you consider to be high end, then that is the answer. A couple of posts said that.

I'm not looking for what people think is high quality, or great durability, or will produce the "best selling" pen.
 
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Phunky_2003

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Smitty,

I've yet to answer any of your posts, due to the backlash each poster recieves. I'll give this a go. I think this post has alot of useful information if you would read it and put all the posts together with what your being told.

Problem with this post is there needs to be more clarification. For example ( I am using each person as an example ) I am no way trying to point out certain individuals.

What I consider high end is 15.00 due to that is the price which I can afford to put money in until it sells or I give away. Now others like Roy (Oklahoman) or Ed (Ed4copies) their price may be 25.00, they can buy in bulk which lowers the price more. The difference being the position we are in. I still consider myself fairly new and consider it a hobby while others do it for business. There is too broad of a spectrum for answers to your question. While you are looking for a simple answer...... the simple answer is the price of a high end kit is what YOU think it is. Each and every individual will have different answers.
 
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maxwell_smart007

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But they are not the question I asked. Assume that the asker is looking for the answer to the question he asked...All of those questions have been discussed. I see many discussions talking about high end kits and I wondered what price range people are thinking of, I am not asking about quality, or durability or anything else...PSI offers "High End Starter Packages" that include $6.75 Gatsby kits so obviously they think high end starts pretty low. That is the what I thought was a rather simple question I asked the members...what price do you think of when you think high end. Not what your taste in pen kits is, not what what vendors you prefer, not who you think makes the highest quality kits. If you don't have a price in mind when you say high end components then the answer is "I don't consider price when determining high-end"

I disagree, Smitty - and I'll explain why.

So you know, I did read your post and all the responses to it - and thought about it for a while before responding. My post was just a reflection of the idea that asking 'what price makes a pen elegant or high-end' is a question that cannot be answered definitively without referring to the quality of a kit, or one's personal preference for looks and style.

There is so much involved in what makes a pen high end...many, many factors - but price is not one of them. I think that price has absolutely nothing to do with the equation, but rather one's personal preferences dictate the essence of high end 'pen-ness', and showing that was the intent in my post.

Is high-end the same as high quality? I think that it is. Is high quality dictated by price. No, it's not.

I didn't ask "what price makes a pen elegant or High-end" I asked about pen kit.
You realize you are telling me that I don't know what I asked?
If you do not associate a price range in what you consider to be high end, then that is the answer. A couple of posts said that.

I'm not looking for what people think is high quality, or great durability, or will produce the "best selling" pen.

I'm rather fond of being spoken to like an adult, Smitty. I've been polite to you, so please return the favour.

Since you don't seem to like the way I answer, I'll refrain from trying to help further in this thread; but please don't put words into my mouth.

Best of luck with your endeavour! :)
 
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