What is the difference -

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DaveTTC

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Apr 18, 2013
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There are a number of kits out there I know.

What is the difference from one kit to the next?
What makes other kits better than a slimline?

I'm guessing the slimline is the poor mans kit.

Can you get quality inks for a slimline?
Does it pay to use more expensive kits?

Thanks to anyone who has the time to answer one or more of these questions.

Regards

Dave
 
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Crashmph

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There are better inks for the slims... Look for Private Reserve ink from a few of our venders.

More expensive kits? It depends on what you call expensive. The better the plating the better the overall product.

Just my opinion and I am sure several will voice theirs as well.

Michael
 

plano_harry

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Plano, TX 75093
Dave, welcome to IAP. There is a lifetime of information archived for you in the Library. Use the "search" function and you can find out pretty much anything you need to know about making pens.

Regarding quality, most kits seem to be correctly priced. The more expensive kits have higher quality plating, castings and hardware. Pick a style you like and start with that. For me, the Berea Hybrid Cigar was the natural quality progression from a Slimline. Love that pen, but it is not my best seller.

You can make great looking pens from the Slimline kit. Get a copy of Don Ward's book to grow your skills with that design. If quality writing is important to you, you might want to move beyond pens that use the "Cross style" ballpoint. Private Reserve Parker style refills, Schmidt rollerballs, and fountain pens give a better writing experience.

There is no "right" answer to your questions. Just start making pens and have fun. The more you pay, the more you get.:wink:

Harry
 

PenMan1

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Jul 8, 2009
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Eatonton, Georgia
Dave:
First of all, welcome to the heroin den! From today forward, you life's mission will focus on how to get more STUFF, so you can make more STUFF.

In a feeble attempt to answer your question, I must first make personal preference disclosures. I HATE ANYTHING that uses a 7mm twist transmission.

For me, those component sets have been a never ending source of frustration. YES, you CAN buy a slim set (in quantity, for UNDER $1). BUT, if you make pens for HIRE, you must change out the WORTHLESS transmission for one that will actually last a year (Price +/- $1). Secondly, the ink in those sets usually run DRY between the 1st and 3rd show (Price for a quality refill $2-3)....NO disrespect for the $1 Private Reserve Cross type refills, as I've sold THOUSANDS of them and they are good. BUT.....(depending on the season of the year, is all I can figure...THEY MAY OR MAY NOT LABEL their refills). THIS IS A LOGISTICAL NIGHTMARE, for creating a system to help you know if you have changed the refill or not. The REAL Cross refills (labeled A.T. Cross- made in Lincoln, RI don't exist anymore). AND after MUCH recent research, I can't help but believe that the Private Reserve refills are EXACTLY the same as the Genuine Cross refills that are made in China.....Not a bad refill, BUT NOT INK that (in Ed Brown's words) will sell a pen.

Now, LET'S TALK PLATING. The $1 pen set looks pretty bad after the first user touches it. I'VE TRIED "upgrading" to Rhodium, TN gold and Black TI (which start at wholesale at about $3.50 -buying by the thousands). AND THOSE SETS USE THE SAME CRAP TRANSMISSIONS! The only longevity success I've had with slim plating is "upgrade chrome" and Black TI".

Since I warranty my work, I figure buying the "best of the best" slim hardware costs me about $7 -because it STILL comes with the Schittty refill. THEN, WHEN they fail (NOT, if they fail), I have at least $5.15 MORE in postage to return the reworked product to the customer.

The wholesale distributors (NOT the IAP vendors) will tell those who by slim sets by the thousands that the "PLATING PROCESS FOR SLIMLINES IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS WITH ALL OTHER SETS"....This is a convenient "head dodge". While the PROCESS is EXACTLY the same, the small "footprint" of the slim means that to have the strength to withstand the pressing process, the brass, lead, or WHATEVER METAL is under the plating must be thicker.....therefore the plating OVER those metals is MUCH, MUCH less.

SO, since the ink refills for slims SUCK (even the Fisher pressurized -the best I've found), the transmissions SUCK (even many of the "upgrades"), AND the "coating" (VERY FEW pens are actually "plated" anymore) SUCK, WHY NOT JUST SPEND $1-$4 more and buy a set that uses a Parker style refill?

The "stock" Parker type refill is NOT terrible and the "upgrade" inks for Parker style pens WILL SELL THE PEN for you!

"Coatings" (TN, Black TI, et al) are MUCH cheaper than metal, so the bigger pens are made with just enough metal to "make them strong enough" and MUCH MORE FINISH COATING MATERIAL.

After YEARS of selling "Sierra type" pens ( I DON'T sell the black enamel), I've have ONE plating failure. The only "transmission" failures I've had were my OWN fault for NOT including in a "how to change your refill" instruction sheet.

This is just me, but I'D MUCH RATHER put a product that I KNOW will write well, WITHOUT failure that putz around with sets that i feel like i'm "backing up into the sale" pens.

I don't even give away slimes, because I feel it tarnishes my craftmanship.

Respectfully submitted,
 

DaveTTC

Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
95
Location
Jerilderie, NSW, Australia
There are better inks for the slims... Look for Private Reserve ink from a few of our venders.

More expensive kits? It depends on what you call expensive. The better the plating the better the overall product.

Just my opinion and I am sure several will voice theirs as well.

Michael

Thanks crash

You say from a 'a few of our vendors' - are they on the site here are they?
 

DaveTTC

Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
95
Location
Jerilderie, NSW, Australia
Dave, welcome to IAP. There is a lifetime of information archived for you in the Library. Use the "search" function and you can find out pretty much anything you need to know about making pens.

Regarding quality, most kits seem to be correctly priced. The more expensive kits have higher quality plating, castings and hardware. Pick a style you like and start with that. For me, the Berea Hybrid Cigar was the natural quality progression from a Slimline. Love that pen, but it is not my best seller.

You can make great looking pens from the Slimline kit. Get a copy of Don Ward's book to grow your skills with that design. If quality writing is important to you, you might want to move beyond pens that use the "Cross style" ballpoint. Private Reserve Parker style refills, Schmidt rollerballs, and fountain pens give a better writing experience.

There is no "right" answer to your questions. Just start making pens and have fun. The more you pay, the more you get.:wink:

Harry

Thanks for the info Harry. Yes the search function can be good bit it can also be like searching for something on the web where you get inundated with so much information it can be hard to narrow down what you are looking for.
 

ed4copies

Local Chapter Manager
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Mar 25, 2005
Messages
24,523
Location
Racine, WI, USA.
"What's the difference"?

Andy is specific, I will be more general. I sold thousands of pens at art and craft venues. Nearly every pen body that was available, I tried.

In ALL pens, consider the plating. Generally speaking, chrome, platinum, rhodium, gunmetal or black titanium, and gold titanium are all considered durable. Anything else is hit and miss. (Remember gold is soft, so if a pen truly is 24kt gold, you would not EXPECT it to last long in continuous handling. This is one reason jewelry is not 24kt.)


In ballpoint pens, the "important differences" are transmission quality and the rigidity of the "nib" part (some nibs will "crinkle" if put under pressure to assemble). Also the plating can be thick enough to cause trouble pressing into the tube, during assembly.

In Rollerball and Fountain pens, the main issues, apart from plating, come from the threading. Does the "nose" thread into the "body" easily and correctly? Does the cap screw on easily? And STAY ON!!

Final concern is consistency. Is your vendor purchasing from an established manufacturing facility that has done this for years? Or, is the vendor "experimenting" with new "factories" to enhance the profit? (This is not necessarily BAD, just adds more risk to the equation)

In short, stick with vendors you believe to be knowledgeable and reliable.

ESPECIALLY if you are selling your pens---your reputation can be severely damaged by one noisy complaint at a "show"!!

BTDT!!
Ed
 

sbell111

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Jan 16, 2008
Messages
3,465
Location
Franklin, TN
There are a number of kits out there I know.

What is the difference from one kit to the next?
There are loads of differences from kit to kit. These include style, ink/refill type, and ease of manufacture. Most people start with one type (historically slimlines) and branch into other styles as the juices flow.

What makes other kits better than a slimline?
It depends on what you mean by 'better'. The slimlines (and it's comfort and streamline cousins) are reasonably priced and yield fine pens.

My daily use pen is a gold bocote Comfort that my wife made for me sometime around 2007. I'm fairly sure that it is a PSA funline 'economy gold' kit. While I don't use the pens to hammer nails or anything, it has gotten heavy daily use for the last several years. The transmission still works smoothly and the finish is probably a eight or nine out of ten.

Some years later, she made me a Jr Gent. It is a fine pen, but since it is a capped pen, it simply isn't as convenient to use. Certainly, it writes smoother than the other, but it's far less convenient, so it lives in a drawer.

I'm guessing the slimline is the poor mans kit.
Slimline kits are certainly less expensive to make. They also sell for a smaller amount, all things being equal. We continue to sell them because many people prefer a thin pen (or a less expensive pen).

Can you get quality inks for a slimline?
Again, it depends on what you mean by 'quality'. For the most part, the ballpoint refills for the slimline will not be as smooth as a rollerball. On the plus side, they also won't be as 'wet'.

Does it pay to use more expensive kits?
It depends on your purpose. We sell pens and certainly our raw profit is larger with the more expensive kits. The individual profit margin tends to be larger for the slimlines, however.

Some customers skew towards the slims, while others go to the more exepensive pens. We wish to maximize our sales, so we sell pens throughout the range.
 

DaveTTC

Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
95
Location
Jerilderie, NSW, Australia
"What's the difference"?

Andy is specific, I will be more general........ BTDT!!
Ed

There are loads of differences from kit to kit.......
.

Thank you both for taking the time and effort to answer these questions. I read each post and weigh up the information. $$$ is a pressing issue for me with a young family and a tough local economical climate.

In the near future it will be time for me to branch out into other pens. I'm running out of slimlines but I'm also not selling anymore ATM.
 

Smitty37

Passed Away Mar 29, 2018
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Messages
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Location
Milford, Delaware 19963
Dave:
First of all, welcome to the heroin den! From today forward, you life's mission will focus on how to get more STUFF, so you can make more STUFF.

In a feeble attempt to answer your question, I must first make personal preference disclosures. I HATE ANYTHING that uses a 7mm twist transmission.

For me, those component sets have been a never ending source of frustration. YES, you CAN buy a slim set (in quantity, for UNDER $1). BUT, if you make pens for HIRE, you must change out the WORTHLESS transmission for one that will actually last a year (Price +/- $1). Secondly, the ink in those sets usually run DRY between the 1st and 3rd show (Price for a quality refill $2-3)....NO disrespect for the $1 Private Reserve Cross type refills, as I've sold THOUSANDS of them and they are good. BUT.....(depending on the season of the year, is all I can figure...THEY MAY OR MAY NOT LABEL their refills). THIS IS A LOGISTICAL NIGHTMARE, for creating a system to help you know if you have changed the refill or not. The REAL Cross refills (labeled A.T. Cross- made in Lincoln, RI don't exist anymore). AND after MUCH recent research, I can't help but believe that the Private Reserve refills are EXACTLY the same as the Genuine Cross refills that are made in China.....Not a bad refill, BUT NOT INK that (in Ed Brown's words) will sell a pen.

Now, LET'S TALK PLATING. The $1 pen set looks pretty bad after the first user touches it. I'VE TRIED "upgrading" to Rhodium, TN gold and Black TI (which start at wholesale at about $3.50 -buying by the thousands). AND THOSE SETS USE THE SAME CRAP TRANSMISSIONS! The only longevity success I've had with slim plating is "upgrade chrome" and Black TI".

Since I warranty my work, I figure buying the "best of the best" slim hardware costs me about $7 -because it STILL comes with the Schittty refill. THEN, WHEN they fail (NOT, if they fail), I have at least $5.15 MORE in postage to return the reworked product to the customer.

The wholesale distributors (NOT the IAP vendors) will tell those who by slim sets by the thousands that the "PLATING PROCESS FOR SLIMLINES IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS WITH ALL OTHER SETS"....This is a convenient "head dodge". While the PROCESS is EXACTLY the same, the small "footprint" of the slim means that to have the strength to withstand the pressing process, the brass, lead, or WHATEVER METAL is under the plating must be thicker.....therefore the plating OVER those metals is MUCH, MUCH less.

SO, since the ink refills for slims SUCK (even the Fisher pressurized -the best I've found), the transmissions SUCK (even many of the "upgrades"), AND the "coating" (VERY FEW pens are actually "plated" anymore) SUCK, WHY NOT JUST SPEND $1-$4 more and buy a set that uses a Parker style refill?

The "stock" Parker type refill is NOT terrible and the "upgrade" inks for Parker style pens WILL SELL THE PEN for you!

"Coatings" (TN, Black TI, et al) are MUCH cheaper than metal, so the bigger pens are made with just enough metal to "make them strong enough" and MUCH MORE FINISH COATING MATERIAL.

After YEARS of selling "Sierra type" pens ( I DON'T sell the black enamel), I've have ONE plating failure. The only "transmission" failures I've had were my OWN fault for NOT including in a "how to change your refill" instruction sheet.

This is just me, but I'D MUCH RATHER put a product that I KNOW will write well, WITHOUT failure that putz around with sets that i feel like i'm "backing up into the sale" pens.

I don't even give away slimes, because I feel it tarnishes my craftmanship.

Respectfully submitted,
Andy I have a lot of respect for your opinions and knowledge, but with coatings thicker is NOT always better Rhodium and the Titaniums are always coated very thin - the Titanium Nitrides are not metal they are a ceramic coat them even a little thick and you get cracks. Rhodium is coated thin as well. Too thick on black chrome will cause it to develop cracks and splits.
 

Jim Burr

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Reno, Nv
For those who don't know, Dave is an amazing turner in NSW...seem more of his cool stuff on WTU!

Answers in Red

There are a number of kits out there I know.

What is the difference from one kit to the next? Plating and bling!
What makes other kits better than a slimline? Size, bling, plating options, refills

I'm guessing the slimline is the poor mans kit. The Slim is the most modifiable kit made, you really can do almost anything with them!

Can you get quality inks for a slimline? yup...Lots of IAP guys sell them.
Does it pay to use more expensive kits? I does, Cigars, Gent's Sierra styles all have markets

Thanks to anyone who has the time to answer one or more of these questions. Probably not, but I though I'd give it a shot!

Regards

Dave
 
Last edited:

DaveTTC

Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
95
Location
Jerilderie, NSW, Australia
For those who don't know, Dave is an amazing turner in NSW...seem more of his cool stuff on WTU!

Answers in Red

Thanks Jim, you make me blush. I would like to be an amazing turner ... still got heaps to learn ;)

True guys there is some amazing stuff on WTU (woodturnersunlimited) - few pens but lots of other stuff.
 
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