!We need some Abuse testing!

[edstreet]

In the knife making community several years back we tested a good amount of epoxy's, put them in the dish washer, froze them, dropped them, hammered them, acid bath, oven. twisted and bent them. All in the name of testing the limits and what was better for: metal to metal, metal to wood, metal to synthetics, wood to synthetics, heat rating, cold rating, impact rating and rotational torque. When the testing was over we clearly and quickly saw the products that yielded the best results in that given situation.

I think we should do something similar to kit pens.

Pens in common use are subjected to abrasions going in and out of pockets, hand bags, heat from the car, cold from the car, left in the pockets and put in the washer/dryer. dirty, greasy, oily hands and a range of other abuse.

Here is what I propose. We get a small group of testers We do destructive testing on various pens and have a common standard procedure we follow. We post the results and at the end of the testing we make a spreadsheet showing grades for each of the kits.

I would love to hear what everyone has to say on this so please post any/all remarks. I don't car if it is positive or negative.

 

[seamus7227]

Ed,I really like this idea! It will prove invaluable when it comes time for people to build that custom pen for a specific scenario. I for one would like to be a tester.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

It's a great idea. Just need to make sure it doesn't turn into crazy ways to destroy a pen. I'll sign up for that.

 

[SteveJ]

I can test my ability to abuse you if you want. As long as you can take the heat without giving me the cold shoulder. I CAn finish it quickly as long as SWMBO doesn't give me to much friction, WTF, will do it and make it shine.

 

[jttheclockman]

Not sure at all what the good any of that would do. Plating ratings are pretty well known and those are given facts. As far as kits go you have good and bad in all kits. It has been stated here many times when asked what is a good click pen. It is also pretty much standard as to which twist kits stand up well. Everyone treats pens differently. I think you can pretty much sum up what things not to do with a pen and if you list those that might be of help. But a torture test is to me not useful at all. Just an opinion.

I think your flaw would come with the blank the pen was made from and who is going to say what is best. Nothing can be proven there. If you have followed this forum for years you will have read about the highs and lows of certain kits. If you have concerns of its durability maybe do a forum search and read the comments.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I would say this is more about the pen as a whole. I put a zebra pen through the washer and dryer. All I had to do was put in a new refill and I still use that same pen. Care to wash one of your s and see how it does?

 

[CHARLES STOPCZYNSKI]

Mechanism testing would be good

A bit of "real world" testing couldn't hurt.

Mechanism testing on the models that have them. Including pencil mechanisms might be good.

I'm sure there is a retired engineer or two that could quickly come up with some testing standards.

Charlie

 

[mikespenturningz]

I think it is a great idea but how are you going to do control? If all things are not equal then the tests are invalid. All pens need to get exactly the same treatment or you don't have any comparison at all. How would consumer reports do testing on 5 different washing machines if they were all in different locations being tested by completely different people. Maybe one persons water is 200 degrees and another is 130? That is not an equal test at all. What if one person put the pen in the same pocket as there keys accidentally for a few times and another is very careful and only puts in in the shirt pocket. What if one person sweats allot and another does not. What if one person has acid that excretes from there skin and another doesn't(this has been discussed here many times). Too many variables if they are not all tested in the same environment!

 

[LagniappeRob]

Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

Man: What?

A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

 

[walshjp17]

Good idea.

There are some considerations, however, that need to be taken into account. For instance, what specific tests will need to be done? How will uniformity of testing be controlled? Will video records be needed to certify tests? What will the vendor reaction be to non-professional testing? Do we care? Are there other tests on pen parts that can be used for reference or comparison? What kind of reporting will be needed to provide a useful result?

Please don't mistake my questions for negative comments. They are merely designed to challenge those who eventually undertake the project and those who actually do the testing.

 

[edstreet]

Good idea.

There are some considerations, however, that need to be taken into account. For instance, what specific tests will need to be done? How will uniformity of testing be controlled? Will video records be needed to certify tests? What will the vendor reaction be to non-professional testing? Do we care? Are there other tests on pen parts that can be used for reference or comparison? What kind of reporting will be needed to provide a useful result?

Please don't mistake my questions for negative comments. They are merely designed to challenge those who eventually undertake the project and those who actually do the testing.

Excellent questions, many of those I have been pondering myself.

type of test? I was thinking something to simulate abuse from normal day to day activity. I did mention a few now consider the extremes. Alaska left in the car you can get -80F and down here in the south east it can get 160F in the car. -80F to +160F is quite a spread. You have the washer/dryer thing. Tho I am not sure how you could test abrasion from the back pocket.

Video? No but I would likely think photo's should be good enough.

Vendor reactions? Do we care? Don't know, don't care Perhaps they already know the results of some things. Figure at best they update things to better quality.

Reporting, on the knife epoxy test it was a running thread for about a good month or so with the testers reporting in as they went. they also added in epoxy along the way. It was a very abusive test, included freezing, twisting, hammering, dropping, hot hot hot water etc. I should dig up the thread and post it to give an idea of how brutal

There are some things that I would like to see but not sure how best to go about it, i.e stylus tips I know is a common break item, bolt action pens already we are seeing high numbers of damage to them. Perhaps we could put abrasives like sand etc in the clickers and see how well they hold up over time. I know sierra's are prone to sheering on the lower nib. Platting in various forms like gold, paint etc is a weaker bond and comes off easy. We could also test blank material for abuse you have hard and soft material, trustone, stabilized wood, raw wood, clear casting, resin casting, softer things like pasta/coffee/peas, corn cob, etc.

Non-professional tester? I think it's more the public at large are very much professional field testers

This is the type of questions I wanted to see

 

[edstreet]

Testing for the ultimate adhesive - The Knife Network Forums : Knife Making Discussions

This is the epoxy testing thread I mentioned. Some very good results here to.

 

[BradG]

I would say this is more about the pen as a whole. I put a zebra pen through the washer and dryer. All I had to do was put in a new refill and I still use that same pen. Care to wash one of your s and see how it does?

No. While im confident the pen would come out Unscathed, I reckon it would trash the washing machine :biggrin: Mine double up as glass hammers, Kubotans, hell it would most probably make an effective tack hammer.

 

[edstreet]

I did have some ideas of taking pens to the range and see how well they bury into wood

 

[edstreet]

Ok so how about this.

The subject is super broad and likely should be narrowed down to something specific. There are a decent number of things that could be done easily, CA finish for starters, blank material, plating, among others.

 

[jimdude]

Don't forget drop testing them.

 

[BSea]

I do think there is some valuable information that we can get from this. I don't think this is a plating test, but more of a test for glues, blank material, and how it holds up under different conditions.

Real Life Test:
I know I cringed when my wife told me she ran my 1st kitless click through the washer & dryer. It was made from PR, and I really expected the worst. But it all came out fine. The ink got on some clothes, but the pen was ok. The pen was in a pair of jeans, so it wasn't the delicate cycle.

 

[Smitty37]

As a retired test/quality control engineer I will tell you this...ad hoc testing by a group of people with no controls will give you ad hoc results which are useless.

There isn't much point in testing unless you can, and intend to, do something with the results.

For instance if you find that twist mechanism usually fail in a certain way (and they probably do) after a certain number of operations - are you going to be able to fix it? Will you have the facilities to disect failed mechanisms and the expertise to determine what caused the failure?

Are you going to try to compare one kit supplier to another - you might have some difficulty there because more than one supplier could be using items coming off the same assembly line in which case your results would not be giving you an accurate picture of different manufacturers products. Where the mechanisms come from is not easily obtained information.

 

[Whaler]

Smitty nailed it.

 

[edstreet]

Smitty nailed it.

He may have nailed it and stated the obvious which I made reference to this in my first post but he also failed to list anything that could be helpful to fix those problems.

Hum testing suppliers? I'm not touching that one, if someone else wants to them by all means.

Controls will be in place as I stated already.

 

[Marc]

My curiosity has been piqued by some comments regarding well known facts. I can see I have some library and other research to do to ferret out those facts for myself.

As to the testing, I agree with the thought that we won't get statistically valid results without the rigourous controls and procedures. We can get the stories and opinions from those that performed various tests, then form our own opinions.

One area that I wanted to bring up is that different qualities workmanship might all by themselves invalidate certain results.

I have dis-assembled various customer made pens to determine what went wrong and why they were having a problem. In many cases, I found problems caused by the maker. As an example, lots of folks don't get their tubes glued properly in the pen blank. They will slather glue, whether epoxy or CA onto the tube and then insert and spin in the blank to spread evenly. Quite a few fail to consider that the glue on the leading edge of the insert all gets scraped off and quite a bit of glue is left as a glob at the end of the blank.

When one takes apart these pens one finds the leading edge is quite starved for glue and has little chance of holding the blank to that end of the tube. You can all imagine the variety of failure points this causes.

Others will not have a good fit of tube to blank and then resort to additional glue during the pen press process (say that three times fast!). This can lead to transmissions getting frozen, center bands getting stuck, etc, etc.

The point is, how do you separate poor workmanship form poor pen performance? Not saying that I have experienced these things with my pens (tongue in cheek).

 

[islandturner]

Seems like a good idea.

One thing that may be an interesting test subject -- how tough is a Wood Turners Finish (WTF) on a pen, versus CA?

 

[GaryMGg]

And, for those who don't know:
The Argument Sketch

Thanks Monty! :wink:

 

[John Pratt]

As far as testing one kit or manufacturer vs. another. I don't thinkthat is even possible without tremendous discrepiency in opinion and results. However, testing different adhesives and finishes (with methods of application) is possible for the purposes of the forum and the members who will use these methods as long as they understand it is not completely scientific. One thing to remember is the the blank material will play a big role in how some of the things perform. If I do a pen in PR and you do one in Ebony, we are not going to have the exactly same results in the hot/cold tests no matter what adhesives we use.

 

[Smitty37]

What controls? What do you intend to do that would make any testing valid?

I didn't make any suggestions because after 32 years in the testing/quality control field I can't think of anything you can do to make the tests anything other than ad hoc.

Pens consist of a lot of things hardware. moving mechanisms, barrels made from many materials, nibs, ink cartridges, rollerball and ballpoint refills, ink converters, etcc. Then along with that we have 10s of different finishing materials and methods....what are you suggesting that we test? Everything?

What do you want to find out? What platings will last longest (you can't do this outside a test lab with specialized equipment)? How well different barrel materials hold up to being struck with a 9 pound hammer?
What ink will be best after being left outside overnight when it's 40 below.
What glue works best for holding tube and blank together? What finishing method holds up best to normal wear. How well various woods resist shrinkage and cracking best.

Figure out what you want to do and I might be able to suggest something.

 

[edstreet]

What controls? What do you intend to do that would make any testing valid?

You could logically rationalize that any and all 'test' is null and void

I didn't make any suggestions because after 32 years in the testing/quality control field I can't think of anything you can do to make the tests anything other than ad hoc.

So this is a big waste of our time then.

Pens consist of a lot of things hardware. moving mechanisms, barrels made from many materials, nibs, ink cartridges, rollerball and ballpoint refills, ink converters, etcc. Then along with that we have 10s of different finishing materials and methods....what are you suggesting that we test? Everything?

I don't know the answer to that question, what would *YOU* like to see and how would *YOU* like to see it performed?

What do you want to find out? What platings will last longest (you can't do this outside a test lab with specialized equipment)? How well different barrel materials hold up to being struck with a 9 pound hammer?
What ink will be best after being left outside overnight when it's 40 below.
What glue works best for holding tube and blank together? What finishing method holds up best to normal wear. How well various woods resist shrinkage and cracking best.

Figure out what you want to do and I might be able to suggest something.

Seems to me that if you do have 32 years of experience then you could at least shed some light on this topic and give some helpful guidance and direction. As I first stated it was an idea and I wanted to pick it over with everyone here. It may go nowhere but something may come out of it.

The questions do remain however as to what areas that should/could be done.

 

[LL Woodworks]

I'm with Smitty here. I was a Six Sigma Black Belt and quality engineer and I see this as most likely a huge waste of time and materials. I'll use one variable as an example. Something as simple as drilling the blank to house the tube. Some use a drill press - every drill press has a level of run out. It may be .0001" or it may be .001" but it is there. Is the run out in tester's "A" drill press more or less than the run out in tester's "B" drill press? Are you drilling in 40 degree temperatures or 105 degree temperature - humidity is a variable - drill bit sharpness is a variable - drilling speed is a variable; I can list more possible drilling variables - but you get the drift.

Then take the same considerations into account for those that drill on their lathe. This is just drilling the hole. This could go on and on - and end up with an experiment with 16 variable at three or four levels; and still end up with very little useful information. IMHO

 

[mbroberg]

Just a quick observation ..................

We do have a Product Testing and Review Forum in place.

Product Testing & Review - International Association of Penturners

 

[Whaler]

Smitty nailed it.

He may have nailed it and stated the obvious which I made reference to this in my first post but he also failed to list anything that could be helpful to fix those problems.

Hum testing suppliers? I'm not touching that one, if someone else wants to them by all means.

Controls will be in place as I stated already.

It seems to me that it is a total waste of time and effort that will provide no firm and absolute results. Most answers that are needed for normal pen making are already available, as far as abuse is concerned any one that abuses a pen deserves to have it fail.

 

[jttheclockman]

As I stated I will go on record saying this is a big waste of time. I am sure the thought process can come up with something more acceptable than this. As many have stated the variables are enormous and any pen at any time will break down. Even a MontBlanc.

 

[walshjp17]

Nothing really ever is a complete waste of time, IMHO. Just the mere process of thinking through this idea of Ed's has provoked thought and thinking is never a waste of time.:biggrin:

 

[Displaced Canadian]

To me this wouldn't be about platings, that particular horse has been run into the ground. Also not about particular kits, there really isn't that much difference between them. To me this is about the parts of the finished product we can control. We already know that if you keep a pen in your pants pocket the clip will break and a woman's purse can destroy a pen fasted than an angry badger. Wouldn't it be nice to find out that if you do 3 coats of thin ca and wear argyle socks then switch to yellow and medium ca the finish is less likely to crack? If we can find ways to age a pen 5 years in a month or two so we can find out if a minor change in our process makes a much better product isn't it worth it? How long do we expect a pen to last? We can make this as simple or as complicated as we want. Make 3 of the same pens, use 3 different finishes and leave them on the dashboard of your car for 2 weeks and see how they look. As for a control, we all know what a pen looks like. The important thing would be the explanation of what was done and how it was tested. I just hope that when the results start coming in that we aren't too afraid of what they may be.
The big question is what questions do people want answered?

 

[Smitty37]

What controls? What do you intend to do that would make any testing valid?

You could logically rationalize that any and all 'test' is null and void

I didn't make any suggestions because after 32 years in the testing/quality control field I can't think of anything you can do to make the tests anything other than ad hoc.

So this is a big waste of our time then.

Pens consist of a lot of things hardware. moving mechanisms, barrels made from many materials, nibs, ink cartridges, rollerball and ballpoint refills, ink converters, etcc. Then along with that we have 10s of different finishing materials and methods....what are you suggesting that we test? Everything?

I don't know the answer to that question, what would *YOU* like to see and how would *YOU* like to see it performed?

What do you want to find out? What platings will last longest (you can't do this outside a test lab with specialized equipment)? How well different barrel materials hold up to being struck with a 9 pound hammer?
What ink will be best after being left outside overnight when it's 40 below.
What glue works best for holding tube and blank together? What finishing method holds up best to normal wear. How well various woods resist shrinkage and cracking best.

Figure out what you want to do and I might be able to suggest something.

Seems to me that if you do have 32 years of experience then you could at least shed some light on this topic and give some helpful guidance and direction. As I first stated it was an idea and I wanted to pick it over with everyone here. It may go nowhere but something may come out of it.

The questions do remain however as to what areas that should/could be done.

I don't think it's my place to try to decide what you would like to know.

As just one example of a simple sounding case: If you are talking about finding the best finish for wood barreled pens then you have to know enough about woods to decide at a minimum - stablized/unstablized, spalted/unspalted, burl/not burl, tight grained/loose grained, diagonal cut/cross cut/rip cut. And you have to begin by understanding that the answer might not be the same for all of the possibilities.

Comparing just two possible finishing materials would involve a great deal of testing to get any meaningful results even if a set of controls could be divised and a suitable test method(that includes tangible measurements) found.

I have many years of testing experience, true, but I am not a mind reader.
The first thing a test engineer must know is "What item do you want to test, and what do you want to learn by testing it."

 

[Nick]

IMHO there are forums now in place that covers all of the things mentioned, or they can be added. As Mr. Mbroberg pointed out. There is a forum " vendor Cheers and Jeers",
Product Testing and review, Market research, and finally Wolftat is our product reviews manager and doing a fine job. Mr. Wracinowski has put a lot of work organizing the lLibrary
As it's manager. Lets use the existing forums and tools for this and not start something new.
respectfully submitted
Nick

 

[hard hat]

well its apparent through reading all of these posts that opinions are abundant and that not all answers are constructive to the initial question answered.
yes, there are many variables that must be considered and eliminated so that just one factor can be tested at a time.

If one person makes four similar pens the same day with the only difference being the finish applied, two with WTF and two with CA, and one pair is used as the control and the other is used as the test group then we could be getting somewhere. Lets say that two of them are left on the dash of said persons car for two weeks and the other two were left in a pen case at home, what would the difference be at the end of the two weeks? did the CA finish on the pen in the car crack? did the excessive heat cause other problems? that pen maker then could show what the results are and tell what they learned from this.

The same could be done with a pocket from a pair of jeans and electric motor powering a contraption to move the pen in and out of the pocket several times a minute for weeks. this would show wear on both the finish of the blank material and the component parts and the same test could be applied to similar pens again with the only difference being applied finish.

If you want to know these things to make yourself a better turner, to make your products better, then each of you can take a little initiative and use your noggin sharing your findings with the others here. Or, you can keep on doing what you've been doing because that's the way you've always done it and it works for you.

 

[Smitty37]

well its apparent through reading all of these posts that opinions are abundant and that not all answers are constructive to the initial question answered.
yes, there are many variables that must be considered and eliminated so that just one factor can be tested at a time.

If one person makes four similar pens the same day with the only difference being the finish applied, two with WTF and two with CA, and one pair is used as the control and the other is used as the test group then we could be getting somewhere. Lets say that two of them are left on the dash of said persons car for two weeks and the other two were left in a pen case at home, what would the difference be at the end of the two weeks? did the CA finish on the pen in the car crack? did the excessive heat cause other problems? that pen maker then could show what the results are and tell what they learned from this.

The same could be done with a pocket from a pair of jeans and electric motor powering a contraption to move the pen in and out of the pocket several times a minute for weeks. this would show wear on both the finish of the blank material and the component parts and the same test could be applied to similar pens again with the only difference being applied finish.

If you want to know these things to make yourself a better turner, to make your products better, then each of you can take a little initiative and use your noggin sharing your findings with the others here. Or, you can keep on doing what you've been doing because that's the way you've always done it and it works for you.

What CA thick/thin/medium? What manufacturer? What WTF? What material blank? How was the CA applied? How many coats? How much pressure was used during application? What speed was the lathe running at? What was the temperature and humidity in the shop when it was applied? How was the WTF applied? How many Coats? Where was the car parked? What time of year was it? Was the car parked in the sun? Facing the direction of the sun? How long was it in the Sun? - Those are all things that have to be considered and there are probably a lot more.

What you would have there is some interesting ad hoc information that might or might not be useful to other turners---and that information would be welcomed right now in one of several places here on the forum. You would not have difinitive information that could be said to be a valid comparison of CA vs WTF as a finish.

No one is discouraging you from doing that kind of testing on your products if you feel like it and think it will help you make better pens.

Just don't think that you will have gotten information that will be consistent from turner-to-turner, location-to-location, season-to-season, wood-to-wood, plastic-to-plastic or even day-to-day by the same turner. That kind of information is very difficult to obtain.

Did anyone ever buy paint? Ever look at the samples? Ever see what went on the wall that looked exactly like the samples? My answers to those questions is Yes, Yes, No. There are a lot of good reasons for that most of which apply to any finish being applied to any materials.

 

[nativewooder]

edstreet,

one epoxy, two epoxies, three epoxies, four! Pick whatever epoxy you want to test, find out who the manufacturer is/was, and their chemical engineers and boards run more tests than you ever thought of and somewhere, will have all the info you desire. Too bad the NASA people I talked to are now all deceased.

 

[Smitty37]

edstreet,

one epoxy, two epoxies, three epoxies, four! Pick whatever epoxy you want to test, find out who the manufacturer is/was, and their chemical engineers and boards run more tests than you ever thought of and somewhere, will have all the info you desire. Too bad the NASA people I talked to are now all deceased.

True enough ... the most difficult thing will be to find the right person to talk to. I was in electronics testing at a large corporation and took calls on testing issues from ALMOST (there were a few competitors that we wouldn't do much for) anyone - but they had to know who they wanted to talk to because if they just called the company sales office, they'd never get to me or one of the other folks that could help them.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I do agree that it wouldn't be possible to get completely scientific about this and the info would be a little ad hoc. But I do think it would at least point to somethings that would bear more looking into. To understand the value of ones findings you would have to look at how the test was done. If I put 3 pens on the dashboard of my truck and one starts to have issues we could do more looking into the why. If somebody makes one pen and throws it in the front yard for a week it won't tell you anything.
Questions I would like to see answered are,
Some wood pens over time start to show a little of the brass tube on the ends. Is there a way to prevent this.
Segmented pens can come apart during the drilling process. What type of adhesive holds them together the best?
Is it better to drill a blank with the recommended drill bit and use a little glue or go larger and use a lot of glue?
If a pen made from different materiel wants to come apart while drilling how well is it holding together a year or so later?
Most of these questions have been brought up at different times and a few have been met with the sound of crickets chirping. This could be a way to start to come up with answers to some of these type of questions.

 

[jttheclockman]

well its apparent through reading all of these posts that opinions are abundant and that not all answers are constructive to the initial question answered.
yes, there are many variables that must be considered and eliminated so that just one factor can be tested at a time.

If one person makes four similar pens the same day with the only difference being the finish applied, two with WTF and two with CA, and one pair is used as the control and the other is used as the test group then we could be getting somewhere. Lets say that two of them are left on the dash of said persons car for two weeks and the other two were left in a pen case at home, what would the difference be at the end of the two weeks? did the CA finish on the pen in the car crack? did the excessive heat cause other problems? that pen maker then could show what the results are and tell what they learned from this.

The same could be done with a pocket from a pair of jeans and electric motor powering a contraption to move the pen in and out of the pocket several times a minute for weeks. this would show wear on both the finish of the blank material and the component parts and the same test could be applied to similar pens again with the only difference being applied finish.

If you want to know these things to make yourself a better turner, to make your products better, then each of you can take a little initiative and use your noggin sharing your findings with the others here. Or, you can keep on doing what you've been doing because that's the way you've always done it and it works for you.

OMG are we stretching for something or what?? You do not need a test to tell you it is a bad idea to leave any pen on a dash. What difference does it make if one lasts an hour longer than an other. Who cares how many times it takes to put a pen in and out of a pocket?? What kind of pocket?? Is it a denim or a slacks pocket??

I can not believe this is still going on. Lets get constructive and use our time wisely. Lets make some pens and forget this silly nonsense. Spend the time constructing some outstanding pens with your best work. Lets see them. That is my opinion.:biggrin: