Upgrade gold?

[WoodChucker]

Are the upgrade gold kits worth while or is it a better to get the titanium? Also, is the upgrade gold the same as 10k gold or is it between the 24 and 10? Hope that made sense.

R.T.

 

[Daniel]

This is my Rule of thumb. If I am using a blank that cost 6-8 times the cost of just a run of the mill piece of wood. I want a kit that reflects it. Even if the customer doesn't know the difference I do. I will use regular 24K gold for .50 blanks. But 6 dollar B.B. Burls need much better finishes.
This is simply what has developed in my thinking over the past couple of years as I have learned the differences for myself.
Tn is better as a Gold colored finish. and the Platinum finishes are very good. this was the reason it was selected as the finish of choice for the FPP. It has the best chance of standing up to the conditions the troops are in.

 

[WoodChucker]

Thanks Daniel, thats good logic. And how about the difference between the (upgrade gold) and the (24k), is the upgrade gold a step up from the 24k but not as good as the 10k? I'm a little confused by this. [:I]

R.T.

 

[Fred in NC]

10 K is more durable... it has other metals in it that wear longer.
Most durable gold finish is the titanium gold, where the gold plating is deposited over titanium plating of the same color. When the gold wears out, it is hard to notice, because the underlying color is the same. When regular or 10K gold wear out, you will see the chrome or nickel plating under it, which is of course a different color.

One of my early pens was made from a Ti (titanium, from PSI) kit, but with a 10K clip. I used this pen for over a year. The clip shows wear, which the rest of the fittings look ok.

Titanium gold, on the other hand, is expensive. The only cheaper kits in this finish are from PSI, and I think they have only 3 kinds.

 

[WoodChucker]

Thanks Fred, now is the gold wearing off of a pen something you would take care of for a customer and replace the part? Or is this just expected from normal use and explained to the customer? Thanks!

R.T.

 

[Fred in NC]

I just tell them they are '24k gold plated' and that with proper care they should last. For the Ti pens, I explain that they have a much better plating.

To this day, I have not had a single pen returned. If anybody should complain, I would take care of it.

I have an official tester! She will carry pens in her purse, and use them every day. Right now she carries 3 of them. I check them from time to time. The oldest pen, about 1 yr, is regular gold, and shows no signs of wear at all.

Finishes other than gold are longer lasting, even the regular chrome finished ones. Chrome on brass is a good combination for durability. Also, I have been carrying a black pen in my pocket for months now... looks good as new.

 

[its_virgil]

I sell only TiAu plated pens or other durable platings. I tell customers that the other gold platings will wear off and try to explain the difference. If a customer wants a pen in non-TiAu, I make it clear that the plating will wear and I do not guarantee these platings. Before the chrome platings became available, I would buff off the gold and have my own chrome/silver finish, although I think it is some kind of nickel alloy. i have clear powdercoated standard gold finish but find it easier to buy TiAu kits and pass the extra $$ into the price of the pen. for the pens I give away, I use the black enamel or chrome. Just my thoughts.
Do a good turn daily!
don

 

[Fred in NC]

Don, do you find that the clips show signs of wear faster than the rest of the fittings?

And I agree, that is why I am switching to Ti gold.

 

[Rudy Vey]

I also only use Ti-Gold coated pen kits or Platinum, only the best for my customers. When buying the pen kits in bulk the price difference is not so much anymore. I made some Gents jr last year for some colleagues in the 10K version and all the gold is worn off during daily use. I think the up grade gold lasts a bit longer than the standard gold and the 10K lasts a bit longer than then the upgrade. The upgrade gold is worn off within two months or so when the pen is daily used! Myself I carry a Ti-Au pen for two years now and do not see any sign of wear at all (daily use!!).

Rudy

 

[WoodChucker]

Hey I have one of them there testers, been married to it for 22 years and didn't even know she was useful. (looks over shoulder) []

Thanks guys, appreciate the help and I'll try not to ask any more stupid questions, today anyway. []

R.T.

 

[Fred in NC]

R.T., there is no such thing as a stupid question, except the ones we don't ask.

However, I think there is much danger in a stupid answer! To this, I must confess, and declare myself GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!

 

[WoodChucker]

Now don't start on this confession stuff, I wouldn't want everyone to know the real me. []

R.T.

 

[Fred in NC]

For a $20 pen, no way!

Titanium gold slimlines are available for about $3. from woodturninz and others. I find that feasible for a $25. min pen.

 

[wayneis]

Everybody says that "word of mouth is the advertising". Guess what is the best way to get bad advertising? Dis-satisfied customers who bought a pen that the gold wore off in two months, not gonna make em real happy. I make it a habbit to only sell what I would want for myself and I have pretty expensive tastes.

Wayne

 

[Fred in NC]

Besides "all that" I understand that at least one manufacturer is using a clear coat over the gold. This, while not a permanent solution, would make the plating last longer.

 

[DCBluesman]

Withdrawn with apologies to Drew. This was obviously a case of misunderstanding.

 

[jeff]

Sprited debate good. Personal attacks bad. 'Nuff said.

My every day pen is a Hut Titan in 10K. It's 6 months old and shows considerable wear, mostly on the clip.

Lou just posted something on Netiquette in the Suggestion Box forum.
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1519
I've seen it a number of times and it's always a good read.

 

[WoodChucker]

Originally posted by whatwoodido
<br />Decide how many opinions on this topic you want and ask 2 times that many people and you should just about get that number of opinions. I like have $20 to 45 pens and pencils and I can't do that with the kits that cost half that price. I think you need to determine where your demand is regarding price level then make a decision based on that and what kind of net revenue you want to make from each pen. For me that decision came to be the basic kits.

Drew

Drew, thanks for your input, it's appreciated. I wasn't asking questions to determine what I was going to charge my customers, because I don't have any. []

I'll be able to make up my own mind when the time comes and I feel I'm ready to go into business. Just because someone ask a question and gets an answer, it doesn't mean that's the way there going to do it. I couldn't tell you for sure who's giving the best advice about anything on this forum. But what I can tell you is any input is appreciated and I don't feel anyone has given me bad advice. We all do things different then one another and that's a good thing. What works for you and your customers may not work for someone else in a different location and there customers.

The only reason I'm telling you all this, is because you stated "what you need to do" I didn't feel it had anything to do with my question. I'm just trying learn how to make pens and see how you guys do it. Then I can sort it all out and decide how I'm going to do it. Because I'm a newbie, I know I can sound like an airhead with all the questions, but I just wanted to let you know that while I'm not the smartest person in the world, I'll be able to figure out what works for me.

Hope I didn't sound like I was upset with you, because I'm not. And like I said , I appreciate your input. Thanks!

R.T.

 

[DCBluesman]

Bill B of Arizona Silhouette has a description of the composition of most pen parts on his site. http://www.arizonasilhouette.com/Berea_Hardwoods_Images.htm

In my opinion, he has the experience and knowledge to comment...far more than I. [8D]

 

[WoodChucker]

Thanks Lou, I'll check it out.

R.T.

 

[its_virgil]

Fred,
Yes I do. The clips seem to be the first to go, and on the euros with the large CB, that seems to wear off quickly also.
do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by Fred in NC
<br />Don, do you find that the clips show signs of wear faster than the rest of the fittings?

And I agree, that is why I am switching to Ti gold.

 

[Daniel]

R.T.
I don't have all that much experience with the difference in 10k, and 24k. If it is Gold Plating I pretty much expect it to wear. The Titanium and Platinum I do not. Others have alrady given better reasoning behind this thinking, as well as more accurate expectations for the finishes. the Gold plating is not cheap in my mind, It's the fact I know there are more durable finishes. A pen I put alot of time into designing and making, working for that flawless finish etc, I want it on the best frame I know of. So I tend toward Ti and Platinum.
I have made some pretty nice pens on the plated kits as well. But it was with the full knowledge of what I was doing. or limitations of what was available at the time. Bottom line I really think that all the kits are good enough to have our best work applied to them. the lowest costing slimline is better than any cross pen I have ever used. and that is from a cross fan. they are just smoother and sturdier feeling. saying that some of the pens are cheap because the kit only cost a couple of dollars is like saying a painting is cheap because it was painted with lower cost oils. as you have already mentioned, or at least how I understand what you where saying. I also look at the finished pen and determin what it is worth. I do have a formula that is a base line for getting a price for it. but some times the formula just can't see what I see. and I adjust the price accordingly. other times I hold the pen and ask myself, self, just wat woudl you be willing to part with this for. and man can self be GRRRREEEDY!![]

Originally posted by WoodChucker
<br />Thanks Daniel, thats good logic. And how about the difference between the (upgrade gold) and the (24k), is the upgrade gold a step up from the 24k but not as good as the 10k? I'm a little confused by this. [:I]

R.T.

 

[its_virgil]

Drew,
We must have different definitions of trash talking. How do you know whick kits I;m talking about? I've mentioned no names. But I will say that I have purchased, made and carried all platings from all of the manufacturers (not all of the resellers, the manfg: there aren't many that manufacture...most of what we purchase is made by three or mabye four different mfgs.)) and none and I repeat none of the gold platings, EXCEPT THE TITANIUM OR EQUIVALENT, have lasted for more than two or three months.(This is no reflection on the resellers) Not even the ones with the clear coatings, except the ones I clear powdercoated, and clear PC never wears. PC is harder than woodpecker lips. I think most anyone who has been turning pens for very long and carrying the ones they make have seen the gold (NON TiAu or EQUIVALENT) turn to silver (color at least, it is actually a nickel alloy, I think). I have not intended to upset anyone, just stating facts I have observed ovet the last 2.5 years. Oh well, just my thoughts and the delete key can take care of anything I say....use it and use if often.
Do a good turn daily!]
Don

Originally posted by whatwoodido
<br />Wayne and others-
Instead of trash talking all basic pen kits, back you claims up with some facts. What specific kit were you using that had the finish wear off in 2 months? Who did you buy it from? If from one of the resellers that advertise hear such as Arizona Silloutte, what manufacturer supplied them? We need to know that these resellers are selling inferior products. <b>Because 100 basic CSUSA slimlines later I have never a single complaint about the finish wearing off.</b>

<b>One of the things that everyone needs to understand is that the different manufacturers have different finishing processes for pens with the same finish title. One manufacturers titanium finish may be very different from anothers. And not to anyone's surprise the lower priced ones are generally the ones that don't discuss what the finish process really is and are the ones cutting the corners. And it isn't necessarily just the finish they are short changing you on, it can be the nibs, the refills, the mechanisms, or anything else. </b>

<b>But overall if you are going to talk trash supply the specifics to back up the trash talk.</b> Just because the candidates for president seem to think it is acceptable to trash talk without facts to back up the mud they sling doesn't mean we need to stoop down to their level.

Drew

 

[WoodChucker]

Thanks Daniel, because I'm new, I plan on using all of them. I figure I'll make my mistakes with the cheaper stuff until I figure out what I'm doing and that will give me time to decide what I like. And then when I start selling, I'll worry about what the customer wants. Around here people don't like to spend money, so it may very well be the cheaper stuff will be hot. I hope not, because I like the better stuff also. But I guess if you just explain the ups and downs of each, you should be able to make most people happy and have fun doing it. Thanks everyone for your input!

R.T.

 

[Daniel]

R.T.
In My experience the best advice I can give for making something that sells. Is make what charges you up. If you really like the pen you are showing someone It will naturally come through in how you talk about it. the inthusiasm shines through as I like to call it. I have found this to be a very powerful selling method. Enjoy the penmaking and you will sell them simply out of the excitment of showing them off.

 

[Fred in NC]

Maybe we can all agree to disagree ? And remain FRIENDS ?

I am not a professional writer, and sometimes my wording leaves much to be desired, and can be easily misinterpreted. Sometimes I write in a hurry, and don't think about what others might interpret. It happens to some people, including myself. It is good to be a bit forgiving when we don't totally agree with others. This forum is a good place to practice the GOLDEN RULE.

Ok, maybe I should not have said that !

 

[WoodChucker]

Drew,

What we have here is a failure to communicate. []

Nothing wrong with your advice at all, and NO apology is needed. I was just letting you know that I'm not at the same place as most of you are. I'm just turning pens for fun right now, if I get good enough down the road and sell a few then thats even better. But right now my questions are being asked just because I want to learn how to turn pens, not because I'm in the business. And that's what I thought you were thinking, or at least that's the way it sounded. But it was still good advice for someone selling pens.

Anyway, thanks again for your input and I hope there's no hard feelings? I'm here to make friends and turn a few pens. I've seen enough forums that all there members do is argue, I don't think anyone here wants that.....Cheers!

R.T.

 

[its_virgil]

Drew,
I never asked you to apologize to me. I don't think either of the presidential candidates are slinging mud, bad-mouthing, nor flaming. I will say this again. I have made almost every kit from Berea, CSUSA, HUT, PSI, ROCKLER ad infinitum, or at least kits with all of the different platings. I sand corrected: I have not made the higher end gold and sterling kits from Berea. All of the gold platings I have made wear off except the titanium or equivalent. From slimlines, if this is the basic kit, all the way to the top kit, whatever that is. Actually, I think the slimline is the king of the kits. It is the most versatile, most forgiving, and is the easiest kit to customize. Actually, I have not made a straight skinny slimline in over 1.5 years, except for the customers who specifically want the slim striaght cut slimline pen. 10K,11K,12K,13K,14K,...etal wear off. I have personally experience the gold changing to shinny "not gold". But never have I had the titanium or equivalent gold plate wear off. I have even tried to buff off the titanium and it doesn't. The other platings do in one short touch to the buffing wheel. Everybody's kit!

I am not mad, upset, disgusted, discombooberated, or anything else. I consider all on this forum my cyber-friends. I have learned much from all of you and I hope I have been of some help to the members. I hope I have never come across as being the authority, because I am not. I am on a journey to be the best penturner I can and make the best pen I can, and I will not make and sell a non TiAu or equivalent pen without telling the customer that it will wear off, no matter whose kit or what kit it is. On some of the nicer kits we have no choice. But even our suppliers have many kits in TiAu that are not advertised and one has to ask. I personally think the extra $$ is worth it and when my customers have the choice they always choose the TiAu pen. I have tried to make it clear that my comments are my ownopinions...take 'em or leave 'em.. I'll never know.

I hope we can disagree without being disagreeable. All of us are entitled to our opinions and we should respect those opinions but we do not have to agree with them. Enough said by me on this topic. Have a good Thursday.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[DCBluesman]

To all readers of this forum, I have withdrawn my comment and I sincerely apologize to you, Drew. I clearly misunderstood the intent. Fact is, I know Drew to be a good guy. I guess that's why I reacted as I did. Not an excuse, just a reason.

Originally posted by whatwoodido
<br />Lou and Don-
I understand what you are referring to about a needed apology finally. Sorry to burst your bubble but I was referring to the a slightly more important election at hand. In case it slipped you mind there is a National Presidential Election, featuring mud slingers John Kerry and George Bush. My reference was aimed at them. The truth of it is I nominated Lou so I voted for him, but in reality I couldn't care less which of you wins the slightly less important election for president of the IAP as I think both of you will do a fine job. And the only thing both elections have in common in my mind is I want them both to be over with so we can get on with business.

I will edit my post to reflect which election I was referring to. Maybe I am the one that should be offended though, you guys assumed some pretty bad things about me.

Drew

 

[wayneis]

Drew I think that your undies are a little too tight tonight buddy. I didn't trash talk anybody. Take a chill pill.

Wayne

 

[its_virgil]

Drew,
Understood and apology accepted. I too think the president's race for the USA is vastly more important than the IAP's race, but each has its place of importance. No hard feelings.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

Originally posted by whatwoodido
<br /><b>Don and Lou -
Sorry guys I was referring to slightly more important (at least to me) presediential candidates (Kerry and Bush). See a later post below for more clarification.</b>

<b>Everyone else- </b>
There have been several different times where people in this group have bad mouthed basic pen kits. Everyone saying how the plating wears off in two months or less, but no one has ever mentioned a specific kit that they have had this problem with. On the other hand several of us have specifically stated that we have used the basic kits and not had any problems after more than a year of daily use, and have mentioned the specific seller of the kit that we have been satisfied with. In my opinion it seems that trashing a product without giving any specifics is suspect. If these products are so horrible then help protect the rest of us by telling us which specific kits you are referring to. Because not all kits are created equal.

Everyone can jump all over me and that is fine cause I am really thick skinned, but when all of these people get on their high horse and start making comments about how using basic kits means you are creating an inferior product I don't think I am the one that needs to apologize. A member saying that they have had problems with brand X's basic kits plating wearing off is a completely reasonable statement. However when a member starts making references about how using a basic kit shows that you don't care about your customers and won't get return business, I think they are ones with the poor manners. You can look at my posts I am the person that routinely tells people to make their own decisions.

Bill from Arizona Silhoutte-
I was not implying that you are selling inferior products, you were just the first reseller on the list that came to mind.

R.T. -
Apparently, my "I think what you should do" was deemed inappropriate by you, I apologize for that. My intent was to encourage you to make the decision for yourself based on your specific situation, which I doubt is exactly the same as everyone else on the list.

Drew

 

[WoodChucker]

Well I'm glad that's over. Guess I'll have to start leaving someone in charge when I leave the room. []

R.T.