Turning blanks without sanding?

[leehljp]

I haven't read anything about this, but I am curious what experienced turners know about turning wood or more specifically blanks to size and ready for finish without any sanding? Of course I did sand the CA finish, just not the wood.

I posted a photo of a couple of pens earlier today. In making these pens, I learned quickly that even the slightest sanding was smearing dust on different colored wood. The wood was already fairly smooth, so I cranked the speed up to 3600 plus and used a very sharp chisel. It came out very smooth - better than what 600 grit sandpaper does - and yet NO sanding dust. I did this on two pens and both turned out great.

SO, Have I been in the dark on this different technique? I haven't seen anything posted on this before, but I could have overlooked it.

Comments? I would like your experiences in this. I know that in flat work, a 'scraper' can smooth hard wood better than 600 / 800 sandpaper.

 

[NewLondon88]

I have used the scrapers on pens before and it came out pretty smooth
if you've just put an burr on the edge, but I thought I was cheating so I
never mentioned it. Besides, you can get a catch with those scrapers, too
and it could pull your hand between the rest and the mandrel.
.. not good.

 

[Brandon25]

a good sharp skew should easily put a better than 600 grit finish on wood. Only issue would be probably contrasting woods different densities making it difficult in, say, a soft maple/purpleheart herringbone blank, where you'd have to use VERY light touch to avoid undulating profile because of the deeper cuts associated with soft wood, then skating over the harder wood.


Newlondon, you'll be better off using a scraper with a burr as a negative rake scraper, as in, handle up, scraping tip below center. No catch that way. You're not pushing, you're more lifting the burr into the wood just below center. The burr doesn't last long with negative rake, but a single pen will be fine on one burr. I'd refresh the burr for each pen.

 

[leehljp]

a good sharp skew should easily put a better than 600 grit finish on wood. Only issue would be probably contrasting woods different densities making it difficult in, say, a soft maple/purpleheart herringbone blank, where you'd have to use VERY light touch to avoid undulating profile because of the deeper cuts associated with soft wood, then skating over the harder wood.


Newlondon, you'll be better off using a scraper with a burr as a negative rake scraper, as in, handle up, scraping tip below center. No catch that way. You're not pushing, you're more lifting the burr into the wood just below center. The burr doesn't last long with negative rake, but a single pen will be fine on one burr. I'd refresh the burr for each pen.

Brandon,

This is the information that I am looking for. It seems like I remember reading something along this line before but I never had the reason to get that fine with a chisel - skew or scraper. I always used sandpaper. With the pen that I recently made with solder inlay as silver, sandpaper smeared the solder terribly. But the home made scraper did excellent.

I did use the scraper just a tad below center but I didn't have a lifting burr on it. I will have to check this out. I consider this a happenstance for me and will aid in future segment turnings. I am curious of how well it will work on soft and hard woods. If needed in such cases, I will probably need to stabilize softer woods before segmenting.

I do want to learn more about this. Thanks for the information.



NL88, If a discovery works and works again, its not cheating. But I know how you feel, - sometimes I do things that happen once or twice and feel like I am cheating. :biggrin:

 

[Brandon25]

No prob. Stuart Battey has been know to use 3 or 4 of the same exact negative rake scraper on one, say, 6" tall vase for thin walls, since it doesn't cause much flex of the wood. He keeps the burr on them all, will do maybe 1/2" or 1", set the scraper aside, get a fresh one, using 3 or 4 scrapers, then refreshing the burr, again all 4, maybe refreshing all 4 scrapers' burrs 3-5 times each. In other words, for that 6" distance, maybe 4" diameter, he'd be hitting an already pretty smooth surface with probably anywhere from 15-30 fresh burrs!

 

[Fred]

Cheating ... just who are you cheating?

I believe that if you develop a method that works for you and makes your turning experiences more enjoyable, then that is NOT cheating. It is experience ...

 

[NewLondon88]

Cheating ... just who are you cheating?

I believe that if you develop a method that works for you and makes your turning experiences more enjoyable, then that is NOT cheating. It is experience ...

LOL .. well, I was SUPPOSED to be learning to use a skew..
something I'm still no good at after all this time.

other turners look at me funny when I tell them I make pens with
a roughing gouge. Tru-Stone especially..

 

[Russianwolf]

It's only cheating if you're doing something that could hurt you. When you get "caught" you learn not to cheat. If it can't hurt you, it's called a shortcut. :bulgy-eyes:

 

[nava1uni]

Cheating means something negative, unethical. This seems to be a positive aspect of doing something different. Using a scraper is no different then using a turner's tool, a homemade turning tool, a screwdriver sharpened to work like a skew. It is not different then using acrylic on a wood lathe. Creativity means looking around you and creating something out of raw material and available sources and tools. I use files to create designs, leather tools, etc. Continuing to learn means opening one's eyes to new ways of creating and being willing to take a chance of failing.

 

[Rudy Vey]

This is easily possible, I normally start sanding at 400 grit, sometimes 600; a sharp skew can do the trick. An advantage is when you apply a CA finish afterwards - some people don't even sand much - all the "fine finishing" is done on the CA finish anyways.

 

[Rifleman1776]

I have hear of people who are able (or claim) to skew to a finish that doesn't require sanding.
IMHO, it is either just a nice story or from those who have low standards for their finishes.

 

[leehljp]

I have hear of people who are able (or claim) to skew to a finish that doesn't require sanding.
IMHO, it is either just a nice story or from those who have low standards for their finishes.

Frank,

The reason I asked this question is because the solder in the pen that I posted yesterday smeared worse than anything I have experienced in sanding dust. That good pen was about to be ruined if ANY sanding were to be done on it at the point of the 30 pieces of sliver. In fact it already was ruined the instant I put 600 SP to it. (I tend to start of with 400 to 600 SP). I had to find another way to get it smooth. It was already fairly smooth, so I spent about 15 minutes fine tuning my home made scraper and cranked the speed up to 3600. Instead of sanding it down the final 12.00mm size from 12.30mm, I used my home made scraper and light touches.

The results are in the post of "30 Pieces of Silver". Not a bit of sandpaper after the scraper until 3 coats of medium CA had been applied.

That brought me to start this thread. I was not aware of being able to do this before with such great finish effects. Look at the metal points, smooth as a baby's bu.. :wink:

Anyway, the point was to ask if this were common (or at least - not uncommon) among experienced turners. And if so, I wanted to learn more of this technique.

It is late night here as I post this. I will post a pict of the chisel tomorrow morning my time.

 

[flyingmelon]

Would like to lay down sandpaper

I wish I could get that fine of a finish without it. As far as using a skew far a smooth finish I have seen it done. I tried and got something that resembled the channels on Mars. I had never thought of a scrapper with a burr but now it is on my list of things to make instead of blowing up blanks today.

 

[DCBluesman]

Hank - I wish I could tell you that I do the same, but the fact is I do not have that much control over my turning. I've seen some turners, Binh Pho, Cindy Drozda and a few others, who create a fine finish without sandpaper. I only wish I had mastered it they way your pen shows you have. Great work and keep it up!

 

[marcruby]

In the case of your particular pen, the primary issue is that the metal in that solder has a high lead content and you were, basically, scribbling all over the wood. I would have suggested that you get the right size silver wire and use that instead. If you could have found a softer silver than sterling (check jewelry making and art stores) it wouldn't have been so challenging to turn.

On thing about using a skew. Once you get riding the bevel it's possible to get a very smooth, burnished surface - one far better than a scraper leaves. The problem is how to do this consistently. It looks like you've succeeded in that.

Scrapers cut with a burr not with the 'edge.' The challenge here is getting an even burr. A matter of practive. Be warned that scrapers will cause more tearout than a skew will. You might want to investigate 'shear scraping' which presents the cutting edge at an angle. An minimises unevenness in the burr. I use variations of that cut on bowlwork, frquently to smooth out tearout.

Needless to say all of these processes can leave fine cutting lines that will need to be smoothed out. Probably by 400+ sandpaper.

Marc

 

[dgscott]

A very famous cabinetmaker named James Krenov always used to insist that sanding dulled wood. He used finely tuned and sharpened planes to finish his surfaces. I've always felt that sanding reduced the "glisten" and avoid it when possible. Amazing, though, how using other things (shavings, brown paper, etc.) will help retain the glisten without dulling the finish.

 

[Brandon25]

I'd venture to guess most people don't practice with the skew even half as much as we should. I also suspect some of the issues people have could be a function of the length of the bevel, and thickness of the skew's blade. If you've got a 1/4" thick skew, with a short bevel, you've got to tip the skew handle at a more drastic angle to get the edge to the wood. A thinner skew, (I actually use a 1/8" thick skew from the ten dollar Harbor Freight set, and LOVE it) with a longer bevel, will allow the tool handle to be flatter, giving more control, IMO. Of course, it also means a very small amount of metal entering the wood, so you can get under the fibers more easily, like a razor versus a meat cleaver.

I'm no pro. I've only made about 30 or 40 pens, but I have taken time to practice the skew, and I can get shavings that look like short pieces of hair off of my $1.25 tool.

I'd also like to add that I get the best results at max (3900) RPM. More passes from the blade in smaller distance. Essentially, the skew makes a spiral pattern the length of the blank of you do it in one pass. The faster the RPM, sharper, thinner edge, and more control make this pattern indetectable, just like finer grit sandpaper's scratch pattern.

I'll also openly admit that I can't usually get these smooth results AND hit my target diameter, either out of rushing too much or not paying attention, so I do generally use sandpaper. I always use the skew for the final tool, then I'm able to start no lower than 400, but usually 600+.

Lastly, a word of caution: the very thin edge of a thin skew with long bevel could really make an ugly catch if you lose focus since it would dig in so easily, but I've not had issue with it on pens.

And as always, YMMV.

 

[fritz64]

doesnt everybuddy make pens with a roughing gouge.

 

[marcruby]

The standard for a skew bevel is, I think, 1.5 times the thickness, so a 1/4" skew should have a 3/8" bevel and the 1/8" skew should have a 3/16" bevel. So, angle being the same (and it would be) the 1/4" skew should have the longer bevel with a stronger edge as well. The thicker skew should cut smoother and be more stable

The differences are mostly personal. I grind my bevels slightly long because that makes my back stroke easier to do (I'm left handed). My thin skew is ground with very long bevels (and a more acute point) because it is rarely used as a skew, more of a parting tool. Most of us wind up regrinding their skews to suit the way they want to have their hands rather than make the necessary adjustments. I don't blame them. It really takes some focus and time to learn to use a traditional skew.

Here's an interesting bit on skew grinding by the original skew wizard...

http://www.alanlacer.com/handouts/sharpening_of_the_lacer_skews.html

I'd venture to guess most people don't practice with the skew even half as much as we should. I also suspect some of the issues people have could be a function of the length of the bevel, and thickness of the skew's blade. If you've got a 1/4" thick skew, with a short bevel, you've got to tip the skew handle at a more drastic angle to get the edge to the wood. A thinner skew, (I actually use a 1/8" thick skew from the ten dollar Harbor Freight set, and LOVE it) with a longer bevel, will allow the tool handle to be flatter, giving more control, IMO. Of course, it also means a very small amount of metal entering the wood, so you can get under the fibers more easily, like a razor versus a meat cleaver.

 

[Texatdurango]

It always amazes me that those who don't have the ability to create a nice finish with a skew, refuse to believe those who do! And why does someone have to be a "famous" turner to create such a fine finish?

I was taught to use a skew by a North Texas turner who is regarded very highly in turning circles and suspect that along with him, there are many turners who can produce fine finishes without sandpaper!

Hank, I would recommend finding one who knows how to use a skew other than as a scraper and have them show you some skew techniques. You will be amazed at how much smoother you can turn a pen, even smoother than scraping!

 

[randyrls]

I don't blame them. It really takes some focus and time to learn to use a traditional skew.

Here's an interesting bit on skew grinding by the original skew wizard...

http://www.alanlacer.com/handouts/sharpening_of_the_lacer_skews.html

Marc; I prefer a flat grind rather than a hollow grind on skews. I grind my skews on a flat sander. I find I can sharpen my skews quicker and easier. I also hone the skew edge about 8 to 10 times before it needs another trip to the sharpener again.

 

[NewLondon88]

Marc; I prefer a flat grind rather than a hollow grind on skews. I grind my skews on a flat sander. I find I can sharpen my skews quicker and easier. I also hone the skew edge about 8 to 10 times before it needs another trip to the sharpener again.

I prefer the flat grind, too. To me (the inexperienced) the idea of a hollow
grind is counter-intuitive if you're using the bevel to smooth the wood..

But then again, Sunday was the first time I'd seen anyone do any
turning in person.

 

[marcruby]

I find the concave grind makes honing easier, since I can use the tool end of the bevel as a fulcrum and quickly bring a diamond hone quickly into the right contact with the pointy part. It also keeps me from inadvertently turning the hone over the point. Normally I can sharpen Friday night and hone my way through the entire weekend. The tool burnishes fine as well with just the tool edge of the bevel.

That being said, I don't think that concave is better than flat, or vice versa. It's just what you are comfortable with. I grew up with a choice between using manual sharpening to get flat bevels or flipping the switch on a grinder and sharpening in a few moments. So all of my tool use accomodated the concave bevel. Now I can buy all sorts of flat bevel sharpeners that are are just as fast as my grinder so I might do things differently if I was starting out.

Marc