tubes CA's. while turning they blew

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phillywood

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OK, I have read on IAP some of the members use thin CA Glue to Glue the pen tubes into the blanks. Today I was without the pain and therefore tried to make two pens all by myself without the my mentor(mrBurl) around so I can show off on Thurs.. Oh well it didn't go the way I wanted it. Here what happened,:
1- Drilled the blanks on the Band saw(correction Drill Press, sorry)( thanks to el_d). the turned out very close except that my pen blank vise (that supposed to square everything out) didn't do a good job on the second blank and it came out off center, a little.
2- Sanded the tubes rough with and paper to make them adhere better.
3- Put a thin run of thin CA over the tubes and few drops in the blank( don't worry I had wax in both ends of the tubes , not to get any CA in the tubes.)
4- held the blanks in the left hand and push the tubes in by the right hand(righty).
Left them sitting and went inside and fooled around in the kitchen for over 1/2 hr.
I come out then put them on 7 MM mandrel and put them on the lathe. start turning and first the bank on the left as soon as I got about 1/8" thickness close to the final edge blew on me. so since the blank was Mesquite and i had extra piece left from the same blank i didn't worry about it.
So, I go to the next blank, I am not sure what kind of wood it was since Lupe was nice enough to send it to me when I first started so I thought I ask him for IDing it after I was done.
OK, here this one goes.
first one on the left on the mandrel started to slip then when I figured that it was the glue that didn't adhere well, i took off the mandrel and wen t to finish the second half of the blank and Bam it spilt in half and came off the tube so when I bent down to pick up the pieces I figured out again it was the CA that didn't hold.

Now, Can anyone tell me what I did wrong here or just because CA didn't hold well this was meant to happen, or the blanks blowing put were caused by another culprit?

Sorry didn't get chance to take a pic. since banks were completely off the tubes.
 
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maxwell_smart007

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I don't use thin CA because it doesn't fill the gaps - if your hole is too large, the thin CA cannot bridge the space and will only grip one side of the blank and the tube...

I switched to medium or thick CA for gluing tubes in...

Twist as you insert the tubes to ensure full coverage...I put mine in one side slightly, then pull it out and push it in the other side all the way (to ensure glue at both ends)

Just my method,
Andrew
 

phillywood

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I don't use thin CA because it doesn't fill the gaps - if your hole is too large, the thin CA cannot bridge the space and will only grip one side of the blank and the tube...

I switched to medium or thick CA for gluing tubes in...

Twist as you insert the tubes to ensure full coverage...I put mine in one side slightly, then pull it out and push it in the other side all the way (to ensure glue at both ends)

Just my method,
Andrew
Max, I think because down here still being around 80's F my thin CA runs like darn water and it's too runny. I should have thought of not using Thin CA. So you think that the CA not holding caused the blow out?
 

phillywood

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Max, what do think of the Darn self centering wise not drilling it centered. it only happened to Lupe's blank and not the Mesquite then when I looked at it, the blank was not 3/4 " on all the sides and it got thinner at one end. Do you think the blanks need to be perfectly squared on all sides?
 

el_d

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OK, I have read on IAP some of the members use thin CA Glue to Glue the pen tubes into the blanks. Today I was without the pain and therefore tried to make two pens all by myself without the my mentor(mrBurl) around so I can show off on Thurs.. Oh well it didn't go the way I wanted it. Here what happened,:
1- Drilled the blanks on the Band saw. the turned out very close except that my pen blank vise (that supposed to square everything out) didn't do a good job on the second blank and it came out off center, a little.
2- Sanded the tubes rough with and paper to make them adhere better.
3- Put a thin run of thin CA over the tubes and few drops in the blank( don't worry I had wax in both ends of the tubes , not to get any CA in the tubes.)
4- held the blanks in the left hand and push the tubes in by the right hand(righty).
Left them sitting and went inside and fooled around in the kitchen for over 1/2 hr.
I come out then put them on 7 MM mandrel and put them on the lathe. start turning and first the bank on the left as soon as I got about 1/8" thickness close to the final edge blew on me. so since the blank was Mesquite and i had extra piece left from the same blank i didn't worry about it.
So, I go to the next blank, I am not sure what kind of wood it was since Lupe was nice enough to send it to me when I first started so I thought I ask him for IDing it after I was done.
OK, here this one goes.
first one on the left on the mandrel started to slip then when I figured that it was the glue that didn't adhere well, i took off the mandrel and wen t to finish the second half of the blank and Bam it spilt in half and came off the tube so when I bent down to pick up the pieces I figured out again it was the CA that didn't hold.

Now, Can anyone tell me what I did wrong here or just because CA didn't hold well this was meant to happen, or the blanks blowing put were caused by another culprit?

Sorry didn't get chance to take a pic. since banks were completely off the tubes.

Whoa! You got to show me how to do that Phil.:biggrin:

Like Andrew said it was probably the thin CA I use some gorrilla glue or 5min epoxy
 

el_d

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Max, what do think of the Darn self centering wise not drilling it centered. it only happened to Lupe's blank and not the Mesquite then when I looked at it, the blank was not 3/4 " on all the sides and it got thinner at one end. Do you think the blanks need to be perfectly squared on all sides?
Yeah that would help,

Sorry I had to practically chew my blanks to size. I got a bad bandsaw blade.
That blank was probably a Tx.Mt laurel Phil.
 

ldb2000

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I agree with Andrew , the thin CA don't fill the gaps so your tubes weren't glued in properly . Use either Medium or Thick and you'll have better luck . I ran out of Thick CA a while back and used some 5 min epoxy , I've been using it ever since .
 

phillywood

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Max, what do think of the Darn self centering wise not drilling it centered. it only happened to Lupe's blank and not the Mesquite then when I looked at it, the blank was not 3/4 " on all the sides and it got thinner at one end. Do you think the blanks need to be perfectly squared on all sides?
Yeah that would help,

Sorry I had to practically chew my blanks to size. I got a bad bandsaw blade.
That blank was probably a Tx.Mt laurel Phil.
Lupe, My apology first of all, but on the other hands I am heart broken because it was a beautiful blank and I couldn't figure out what it was I am going to glue it back together to take a pic and see if you can tell me what it was, but as I was turning it, the grain were so beautiful.
It was not the TX MT. laurel because I harvested the ones in my front yard. it was Dark brown then when I turned it, it got soem sapwood in it.
Sorry that your good deed got wasted. I'll make it up to you by surprising you other ways.
 
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phillywood

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I agree with Andrew , the thin CA don't fill the gaps so your tubes weren't glued in properly . Use either Medium or Thick and you'll have better luck . I ran out of Thick CA a while back and used some 5 min epoxy , I've been using it ever since .
Butch, I am sorry to say that my mentor told me not to use CA, but I think I was too excited to make pens (and being a Leo doesn't help either)on my own and you guessed it, I srew up.
 

snyiper

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Being a fellow Leo I feel your pain. With what I could tell while drilling you came out a little off center that will cause the hole to get a little larger as the bit deflects while drilling. Then you use thin ca and slide the tube in well depending on how you laid the blank down the tube sits to one side of the hole. Ok you are ready to turn you are all square on the ends and begin to turn. Things are going as planned then as you get to the bushings it comes apart. Chances are if it was a slim they are really thin anyway and if you caught the pocket the tube left it will blow. One fix is to use a smaller bit (17/64) next use Thick CA. I prefer Sumo or Gorilla Glue both foam or Mannies 5 min epoxy. These are just a couple things you can do to help stop the blanks from peeling off.
 

sbell111

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Max, what do think of the Darn self centering wise not drilling it centered. it only happened to Lupe's blank and not the Mesquite then when I looked at it, the blank was not 3/4 " on all the sides and it got thinner at one end. Do you think the blanks need to be perfectly squared on all sides?
Centering is a funny thing. I typically don't care if I drill a (non-laminated) blank directly in the center. After all, the hole will be dead center once I've turned the pen, right?

In fact, Many times, I'll purposefully drill them off-center to highlight a good bit of grain. What is important to me is that the grain on the two halves of them pen match fairly well. Therefore, I have to make sure that I drill off-center the same amount on both blanks. Also, I drill from the top of the bottom piece and from the bottom of the top piece, so I am actually looking for 'book matched' holes. Just make sure that the hole isn't so close to an edge that you can't turn the blank round without overturning it. That is a real challenge for me on some blanks, such as whiskey barrel blanks where I am trying to keep some of the char on the pen.

I also didn't see where you milled the blanks after gluing in the tubes. Not milling them will lead to badness. Either the blanks will not be square to the fittings once assembled or the pen will esplode on the lathe or the wood will crack when you press in the fittings.

I always use thick CA to glue in tubes. Thicker stuff typically takes long enough to set that I can make sure that the tube is where I want it to be and it helps fill any gaps between the wood and the tube.

So here's my advice:
  1. Drilling on center typically doesn't matter as long as your entry holes allow the grain to be aligned.
  2. Proper milling of the blank is important.
  3. Thin CA isn't the glue of choice for tubes. Use thick CA or some other thick glue like epoxy or gorilla glue.
 

gawdelpus

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Have to agree with the majority here re glueups , with thin CA you will only get a partial glueing. this will leave a gap in places between the tube and your timber or acrylic .once it gets a bit thin and hot ,and at speed it does just that ,the material will flex ,you may not see it or even feel it till it lets go ,5 minute epoxy is good as is thick or medium CA the working time of epoxy gives you the advantage of good coverage ,and still sets fast enough to allow trimming the blanks ,and turning in a reasonable time .Even perfectly square blanks can drill off centre at times ,speeds feeds and sharpness of drill,even materials come into play so thats an experience call :)
Sometimes depending on the blank and if you can find the pieces they can be salvaged by regluing and filling small gaps with various methods often discussed elsewhere in these forums. Ay least you now have some more experience for next time :) cheers ~ John
 

randyrls

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I should have thought of not using Thin CA. So you think that the CA not holding caused the blow out?


Possibly; the suggestion to insert with a twisting motion is a good one.

You should also rough up the brass tubes with sandpaper to give the glue good adherence to the tube. Check the failed parts. Did the glue adhere to the blank or the brass tube?
 

PenMan1

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Phil:
I agree with the others that thin CA is not the first choice for tube glue up. But, I have used it in the past without issue.

Two things you said that got me thinking. 1. You said it had been a while since you made a pen- how old was the glue? Thin CA seems to lose it's properties in my shop must faster than medium or thick.

Second, you said it was 80 degrees. With the weather beginning to cool a bit, does this mean that the glue has been stored in ABOVE 80 degree temps for sometime ?

I would check this glue by doing some simple "flat" glue ups to see if it holds. Where I live (very hot and very humid), the only way I can get much life from thin CA is by refrigeration.

Respectfully submitted.
 

Rick_G

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Have to agree with the majority, with thin CA you are going to have places where the tube and wood are not glued together. I stopped using CA for glueing tubes in after I had one stick part way in. I started using 5 min. epoxy and have not looked back. Glue in the tube then come in here and look at all the pretty pen pictures for 1/2 hr or so then back to the shop and turn my pen.
 

phillywood

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To all of you who replied, I am so thankful, and appreciative. I am glad to be part of this forum since it's like having so many teachers to observe (from the pic. at least) and tell you what might have gone wrong.
I missed putting two things. I roughed up the tubes for gluing and I did use the mill to square off the ends. One thing I made a mistake I think was that I had too much left over on the blanks after I milled them square and so I took them to my belt sander and tried to take off the excess, shich I think in one case I just sanded too much. On the other hands, at this point I am playing only with the blanks that I have few of and since I harvested them myself it doesn't bother me to learn form my mistakes. It just made me mad that I was just trying to surprise Lupe with his blank which only had one ( I should have chosen the others that he send me more of) and was trying to make a pen and send it to him as a return of favor. Oh, well he is gracious enough for that.

Your replies made me more aware of the situation and i am very grateful for that. Very thoughtful pointers. Thanks. I try to post pics on the blown one for your view.
 

sbell111

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Did anyone mention that it's best to keep your tools super sharp? As tools begin to get dull, we end up putting more pressure into turning than we should have to. This results in the occasional kablooey, also.
 

Gary Beasley

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Max, what do think of the Darn self centering wise not drilling it centered. it only happened to Lupe's blank and not the Mesquite then when I looked at it, the blank was not 3/4 " on all the sides and it got thinner at one end. Do you think the blanks need to be perfectly squared on all sides?

If you get stuck with a tapered blank put the bigger end on the bottom and manipulate the blank as you tighten the vise so you center up the drill pretty good on the small end. This helps avoid surprises from getting the hole too close to the outside of the blank.
 

capcrnch

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+1 on Medium CA

Also, I don't know if it matters, but I usually let mine sit for more than 30 minutes.
The CA could be dry, but i've yet to be that pressed where I had to get it on the mandrel and spinning.
 

bitshird

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Phillip, Thin CA Bad thick CA OK 5 minute Epoxy better, Gorilla glue even better, just put tape over the ends after you put the tubes in and be sure and put some water either on the tubes or put the glue on the tubes and wipe the hole with a q-tip that's been wet with water,
 

Chasper

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Don't give up on THICK CA, it will work, I use it over and over with no problems. Put a big glob of it in the drilled hole, put a bunch more on the tube, twist, twist, twist when you push the tube in. After a dozen or so sections glued up you will have a puddle of CA on the table if you aren't using a piece of scrap to catch it. Hit it with accelerator and wait a few hours at least. It will take a little work to scrape the glue out of the inside of the tube, but for me the total time for a large batch of glue up is considerably faster with CA than any other method
 

phillywood

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OK, Next Qsn.:
why do you guys think that self centering vise drilled dead center on the mesquite blank and not the unknown Lupe's blank. Do you think that I had to square off the ends of the blanks before I put them in the vise. Now, Unknown blank was noticed that it was not square and straight on all sides to make a perfect 3/4" blank and I do happen to have some blanks that fit this category. Does that mean that I have to square them all off by taking them to the planer? How about loosing some of the dimensions form the sides when you go to the planer?
 

phillywood

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Being a fellow Leo I feel your pain. With what I could tell while drilling you came out a little off center that will cause the hole to get a little larger as the bit deflects while drilling. Then you use thin ca and slide the tube in well depending on how you laid the blank down the tube sits to one side of the hole. Ok you are ready to turn you are all square on the ends and begin to turn. Things are going as planned then as you get to the bushings it comes apart. Chances are if it was a slim they are really thin anyway and if you caught the pocket the tube left it will blow. One fix is to use a smaller bit (17/64) next use Thick CA. I prefer Sumo or Gorilla Glue both foam or Mannies 5 min epoxy. These are just a couple things you can do to help stop the blanks from peeling off.

Ok, Glenn, I discovered something. yesterday, I want and rechecked the squareness of the drill press and everything was right. here how i did it.
According to the pen vise I took a 3/8 drill (since i didn't have a rod) and put into the chuck and put a square to it on all sides and everything checked OK. after I was done with the drilling i look and test the holes and guess what at one end it was perfect and at the the end it was tad bigger. when I inspected the drill press i discovered that there is a little wobble in the drill chuck itself and couldn't figure out how to get rid of that. Now this is my conclusion form here on out I will use epoxy to fill any gaps that there are so this will be taken care of.
Thanks fellow Leo. we rock.
Now, unlike some of the members here i haven't gotten the very expensive drill bits yet, and I looked at some of the ones my mentor has, and man they are very expensive for every sizes, but i think he has accumulated them over time and not all at once. I guess i have to get to that point once i figure out which kits are my favorites so i won't break the bank.
Ok here is what I have a set of 150 pieces titanium coated drill bits with numbers and fractions then the letters, are you suggesting that every time I use abotu 1/32 or 1/64 smaller than the needed size with my set?
 

phillywood

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Centering is a funny thing. I typically don't care if I drill a (non-laminated) blank directly in the center. After all, the hole will be dead center once I've turned the pen, right?

In fact, Many times, I'll purposefully drill them off-center to highlight a good bit of grain. What is important to me is that the grain on the two halves of them pen match fairly well. Therefore, I have to make sure that I drill off-center the same amount on both blanks. Also, I drill from the top of the bottom piece and from the bottom of the top piece, so I am actually looking for 'book matched' holes. Just make sure that the hole isn't so close to an edge that you can't turn the blank round without overturning it. That is a real challenge for me on some blanks, such as whiskey barrel blanks where I am trying to keep some of the char on the pen.

I also didn't see where you milled the blanks after gluing in the tubes. Not milling them will lead to badness. Either the blanks will not be square to the fittings once assembled or the pen will explode on the lathe or the wood will crack when you press in the fittings.

I always use thick CA to glue in tubes. Thicker stuff typically takes long enough to set that I can make sure that the tube is where I want it to be and it helps fill any gaps between the wood and the tube.

So here's my advice:
  1. Drilling on center typically doesn't matter as long as your entry holes allow the grain to be aligned.
  2. Proper milling of the blank is important.
  3. Thin CA isn't the glue of choice for tubes. Use thick CA or some other thick glue like epoxy or gorilla glue.
[/quote]

I have been thinking to drill off center on some blanks for the same effects you mentioned above. I am not sure if i understand how to do that, i am guessing that this can not be cone on a pen vise since it doesn't allow for movement. Now, (I may be wrong in thinking) are doing this free handed and if you do how are you securing the blank so it won't walk on you and possibly injure you? if not can you explain how you do it, please?

"I drill from the top of the bottom piece and from the bottom of the top piece" Excellent pointer, thanks for that I make sure and follow this from here on out. I guess the guys that drill on the lathe don't have to worry about this issue.

I got some of those Jack Daniel blanks and I will have to PM you about how you keep the char part on the blank.
Thanks for the tips
 

DurocShark

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One step I didn't see you post was squaring the blank to the tube after gluing it in.

If the wood/material overhangs the tube AT ALL you WILL blow the blank. DAMHIKT
 

snyiper

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Phillip try looking at Mc-Mastercarr.com for the bits there you can get HSS or better one at a time and wont have a bunch of bits you will never use. I often will drill smaller and do the final sizing with the proper bit. I believe the only way to get a perfect hole every time is use the lathe which I do not do. I think you can get a perfect hole with the drill press on occasion depending on the wood and figure. Dense wood highly figured and dull bits can all make holes wander a bit. I personally find Sumo brand or Gorrillia glue is the best to fill any gaps. Of course it is best not to have gaps...LOL. A tool that you may consider is a Drill DR it is a luxury but it will extent the life of bits quite a bit and you will no longer have a reason for a dull bit. I just buy 3-4 bits of the size I need and change out when dull then sharpen a few at a time. If you use a smaller bit as a pilot it is not as hard on the final size bit! Remember drill slow speed and a slower rate. Not many woods like to be drilled fast, back out and clear often....
 

phillywood

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One step I didn't see you post was squaring the blank to the tube after gluing it in.

If the wood/material overhangs the tube AT ALL you WILL blow the blank. DAMHIKT
Don,I used the pen mill I just forgot to list it above then i also forgot to use the chamfering bit to clean out any burrs on the edge before I put it on the lathe.
I am going to go take a pic. of the blanks that were blown out and post it, but i think the culprit was the CA glue, since I only see the traces on the inside of the drilled hole and i talked to a member on the phone and he/she mentioned that I forgo that the CA glue was going to be sucked al by the wood form inside out which I forgot about that fact.
 

phillywood

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Phillip try looking at Mc-Mastercarr.com for the bits there you can get HSS or better one at a time and wont have a bunch of bits you will never use. I often will drill smaller and do the final sizing with the proper bit. I believe the only way to get a perfect hole every time is use the lathe which I do not do. I think you can get a perfect hole with the drill press on occasion depending on the wood and figure. Dense wood highly figured and dull bits can all make holes wander a bit. I personally find Sumo brand or Gorrillia glue is the best to fill any gaps. Of course it is best not to have gaps...LOL. A tool that you may consider is a Drill DR it is a luxury but it will extent the life of bits quite a bit and you will no longer have a reason for a dull bit. I just buy 3-4 bits of the size I need and change out when dull then sharpen a few at a time. If you use a smaller bit as a pilot it is not as hard on the final size bit! Remember drill slow speed and a slower rate. Not many woods like to be drilled fast, back out and clear often....[/quote]

Glenn, the first tip in Red is very good I remeber that and try to apply it. Second tip, I already own a Drill Dr. saved my butt on buying whole bunches of bits then my next door neighbor gave me gobs of Aircraft industry bits that I have to put them under th magnifying light to record their sizes. I think I can find God knows drill bits that I need. the bit that I used was given to me by my mentor since he no longer makes any 7 mm pens and i am just using it for now to run out of the kits he gave me, honestly they don't impress me much and the darn things are too skinny anyways. However, I think they are perfect for me right now till I get teh kink out of my turning habits.
Thirdly, I remember using that tip since i have read it many times on IAP in other people's post and I tell you mesquite lets you know quickly when you are going too fast wait until you get yours in the mail and try, you'll see.
 

Shannon

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If you use Gorilla glue you can just hold the blank in your mouth and breath through it while you sand your tubes. Your breath will have enough moisture for the Gorilla glue to react.

s
 

sbell111

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Centering is a funny thing. I typically don't care if I drill a (non-laminated) blank directly in the center. After all, the hole will be dead center once I've turned the pen, right?

In fact, Many times, I'll purposefully drill them off-center to highlight a good bit of grain. What is important to me is that the grain on the two halves of them pen match fairly well. Therefore, I have to make sure that I drill off-center the same amount on both blanks. Also, I drill from the top of the bottom piece and from the bottom of the top piece, so I am actually looking for 'book matched' holes. Just make sure that the hole isn't so close to an edge that you can't turn the blank round without overturning it. That is a real challenge for me on some blanks, such as whiskey barrel blanks where I am trying to keep some of the char on the pen.

I also didn't see where you milled the blanks after gluing in the tubes. Not milling them will lead to badness. Either the blanks will not be square to the fittings once assembled or the pen will explode on the lathe or the wood will crack when you press in the fittings.

I always use thick CA to glue in tubes. Thicker stuff typically takes long enough to set that I can make sure that the tube is where I want it to be and it helps fill any gaps between the wood and the tube.

So here's my advice:
  1. Drilling on center typically doesn't matter as long as your entry holes allow the grain to be aligned.
  2. Proper milling of the blank is important.
  3. Thin CA isn't the glue of choice for tubes. Use thick CA or some other thick glue like epoxy or gorilla glue.

I have been thinking to drill off center on some blanks for the same effects you mentioned above. I am not sure if i understand how to do that, i am guessing that this can not be cone on a pen vise since it doesn't allow for movement. Now, (I may be wrong in thinking) are doing this free handed and if you do how are you securing the blank so it won't walk on you and possibly injure you? if not can you explain how you do it, please?
My pen vise is not permanently attached to the drill press. I hold it to the press' table using spring clamps.
"I drill from the top of the bottom piece and from the bottom of the top piece" Excellent pointer, thanks for that I make sure and follow this from here on out. I guess the guys that drill on the lathe don't have to worry about this issue.

I got some of those Jack Daniel blanks and I will have to PM you about how you keep the char part on the blank.
Thanks for the tips
The way to keep the char on the sides of a Jack blank is to know how fat your final pen will be and to drill the blank so you don't remove very much of the char edge when you turn it.
 

DurocShark

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Location
Anaheim, CA
If you use Gorilla glue you can just hold the blank in your mouth and breath through it while you sand your tubes. Your breath will have enough moisture for the Gorilla glue to react.

s

That doesn't work for me. But I'm at 6200ft elevation. My breath evaporates long before it condenses onto the blank. :wink:

A spritz bottle kept handy works wonders.
 

MrWright

Passed Away Oct 12, 2022
In Memoriam
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
282
Location
Lockeford, California
One thing I have done when using Thick CA is after the tube is sanded I take a small bastard file and cut a small slice across the tube on each end. That gives the CA the opportunity to fill the small cut and the wood grain on the blank. Have never lost a tube in a blank using this method.
 

Padre

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
1,841
Jerry Sambrook clued me in to the Elmer's polyurethane glue at Harbor Freight. You can get it for less than $3.00. Sometimes when I am in a hurry I use medium CA.

I also sand each tube before inserting it in the blank.
 

snyiper

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
1,601
Location
St Inigoes, MD
If you use Gorilla glue you can just hold the blank in your mouth and breath through it while you sand your tubes. Your breath will have enough moisture for the Gorilla glue to react.

s

Even though this may work I can see the headlines now!!!!
 

ctubbs

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Messages
3,588
Location
Murray, Kentucky
I use a cross machinest vice on the drill press. this allows me to position the blank anywhere I wish. I installed a piece of metal square to the vice base to keep the blank vertical so the hole is always the same. Works for me and allows me to multipurpose the vice. At HF the vice did not cost much more that the special pen vice elsewhere.
Charles
 
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