tube/blank bonding

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el_chupo_

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I am a beginner. I have about a dozen pens done, a variety of kits. Been really digging cocobolo (some premade blanks, some pieces I bought from local store to cut down into blanks), and I have had generally good luck with this wood, though a couple of blowouts in the past.

I havent really settled on my best tools for the job, so I used a mix of HSS spindle gouge and an Easy Wood tools Easy Start rougher (square) if it matters.

I was trying to turn a pen for my grandpa and ordered some stabilized spalted pecan from Amazon. A bit crooked of a blank, but I got a hole drilled and glued in a tube for a single tube pen (long clicker, as he likes click pens). As I was turning the first I had a blowout, so I put it aside to see if I might try to salvage something in the future.

Second pen blank I cut down for a simple slim style, as I figured that was my best shot at success. drilled, glued in a blank. Was using a CA glue, but apparently I didnt wait long enough and the tube actually shifted slightly in the blank on one end, so that one was ruined too.


None of these were special blanks, but I realized that I was probably short-changing myself by not sticking with a single glue setup and knowing it worked. Also sucks to have wasted $20 in blanks this morning...

I seem to have had the best luck with 5 minute Barrel Bond epoxy. BUT... I seem to be sometimes impatient in waiting, so I have also experimented with CA glues. I have used Stickfast and Star Bond (I think), and recently Dap Rapid Fuse

I believe that my own inconsistencies are part of the problem, so I know I need to figure out a solution or two, and just stick with those.

I have been reading and it seems like many like epoxy, CA, or Poly glue like Gorilla glue.

What will be my best options for a variety of woods (full spectrum), stabilized, and occasionally acrylic/hybrid blanks?

I would prefer a "great" option for both blanks I can drill in advance (say 8+ hours at a minimum) and an option for "lets turn in minutes, not hours" if possible.
 
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magpens

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IMHO, your best bet is 5-Minute Epoxy for everything.

Bear in mind that you CAN lose quite a bit of glue in the process of pushing the glue-covered brass tube into the blank.

Drilling is an imprecise operation and drill sizes recommended in instruction sheets are not always the best for all blank materials. Sometimes you drill to the recommended size, but because of the nature of the blank material the hole size is not as big as the drill size. In such a case, it is better to use a slightly oversize drill. But ... you may not know to do that until you have drilled the hole and trial-inserted the brass tube. It is difficult to enlarge a drilled hole by a small amount using a bigger drill ... the material just expands slightly to accommodate the oversize drill and then shrinks again when the drill is removed. . Plus you need quite a variety of drills of different sizes and you hardly know what size drills to buy beforehand. . I have taken the (expensive) option of buying drill sets in fractional sizes, metric sizes, and in letter sizes. In addition, I have bought adjustable straight-sided reamers, which I have found to be the best way to try to deal with this problem.

I know that I have departed from the original subject of your question, which was a glue recommendation, but what I have said is relevant to the overall problem of getting the brass tube reliably glued into the drilled blank.

If you are wondering about "oversize by how much" for the actual drilled hole, then I can only say that comes with experience ... and I know that may not seem to be very helpful but it is the best I can do. I use calipers to measure my tube and hole sizes and I aim for the drilled hole to be about 0.006" bigger in diameter than the tube. . That of course means that there is 0.003" of space on each side of the brass tube for the glue to fill, and you can't even be sure the glue will actually fill that space due to uncertainties in the glue consistency and in the process of inserting the tube into the hole.
 

thewishman

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Take your slim blank and drop it in acetone. The tube should come right out. Or you can heat up a transfer punch and slide it into the tube to get it hot - again, the tube should come right out.

I use 5 minute epoxy for almost all tubes, give it a half hour. At Lowes they have either Devcon or Loctite 5 minute epoxy, both work well. Sometimes I'll use thick CA if I'm in a big hurry.
 

ajollydds

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Matt, I'll second what has been stated above. My preference is also epoxy, but I use gorilla glue occasionally as well.

The most important advice I can give you is to be patient. Anytime I get in a rush something breaks or I increase the chance of injury in the shop.
 

David350

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Hi Matt, I also am a big believer in epoxy, I use the BSI (Bob Smith Industries) 5 minute that I get from Amazon. I am pretty new at this as well as I am only about 150 pens into this hobby. I have made my share of mistakes, but I have never had an issue with blank glue-up. I typically wait about an hour after glue-up, but I have done some within about 10 minutes without any problems. Best of luck to you in the future. David
 

mecompco

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Here's another vote for epoxy. I like the 5 minute Loc-Tite clear version. If you're doing a larger batch of glue-ups, a slower setting epoxy is a good idea. Even though it's "5 minute", I prefer to give it 24 hours to cure. I have, when under a deadline, turned within two hours w/no problems.
 

Dieseldoc

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Very good advise in the above post. One thing for sure time can be on your side, make sure you allow enough time for any of the products.
After trying all of the above I find that using Gorilla and 5 Min epoxy works every time when I leave my stuff set over night.
Keep trying and you will find what works for you.

Good luck

Charlie
 

Edgar

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Personally, I like CA & use it for gluing every type of blank. I think the main thing is to develop a good technique, regardless of what your choice of glue might be. CA can be a little more problematic than other adhesives if you don't have a good technique, but no reason to shy away from it.


Here's my approach:
1. I use FastCap 2P-10 Medium - no claims that it's the best, it's just what I get the most consistent results with & it has a long shelf life
2. I don't scuff my tubes unless they are grungy.
3. For plastics, I coat both the inside of the blank and the tube with Krylon spray paint and let it cure at least 2-3 days
4. Blow dry, compressed air into the blank to clear it of sawdust. Don't blow into it yourself, your exhaled air contains moisture that can interfere with the glue
5. For oily woods like cocobolo or olive wood, I will sometimes wipe the inside of the blank with acetone on a Q-tip, then wait a few minutes to make sure it has all evaporated

6. Test fit the tube into the blank to ensure a good fit, not too loose & not too tight
7. Liberally coat the tube with glue (use it like someone else is buying it), then insert with a twisting in-out motion
8. Let the glue cure at least 24 hours before turning


This works for me, but there are lots of other techniques & adhesives that will also work. It's best to keep experimenting until you find an approach that you like & works well for you.
 

JimB

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Although I use thick CA myself I would recommend epoxy because there are fewer potential problems with it. Blowouts are often caused by poor glue coverage. You need the entire tube to be covered. You should twist the tube as you insert it into the blank. The goal is to be sure all the gaps between the tube and blank are filled with glue. If there are gaps that is where the failure will happen. If you use CA use thick as it is better at gap filling.

If you are in a rush there is more likely to be a failure. I let it sit over night regardless of the glue up method.
 

RobS

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tips in addition
1) sand paper the tubes
2) use a toothpick and smear your adhesive within the blank
3) turn your tube with adhesive on it, slowly as you push it in

these should reduce the likelihood of voids
 

leehljp

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All of the above. A couple of notes though:

Even twisting as you insert, you will find after a blowout and observation that the well glued blank did not have adhesion as much as you thought. This is where gorilla glue shines. I too use medium CA and 5 minute epoxy about half the time. On special blanks, I use gorilla.

Now to one thing you wrote:
"and an option for "lets turn in minutes, not hours" if possible."

You will not get there consistently without plenty of experience and changing techniques. One change of technique is to plan ahead. While it is fun to pick up a blank and go from start to finish in 30 minutes, a little planning will help solve the blowout problem.

Scenario 1: prepare a bunch of blanks the night before and let them set overnight.

Scenario 2: prepare three or four blanks and let them be setting up while you are turning the first one glued up. The first one will have had an extra few minutes to set up. By the time you get to the others, they will have set.

A suggestion is to not rush the glue up. An extra minute preparing by making sure you have sufficient glue will be well worth it.
 

greenacres2

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All good info up above.

I use CA for most of my woods that are not segmented (including cocobolo--one of my favorites!!). CA for blank prep is done with super-thin on the inside of the blank and thick on the tube. Careful--the fast thin shortens the time you have to get the tube set. Then, wait at least an hour or two. For acrylics and segmented wood, almost always epoxy--either 5 minute Gorilla brand for one or two, or Bob Smith mid-cure if i'm doing several. Then, let them sit for 6-12 hours.

The time thing--I've only been doing this for a year, so I can relate. With only a few blanks and a few kits, I wanted to get turning right away and that caused more than a few issues. Now, I'll set up 5-10 blanks in an evening, turn for a few days until I start to run low, and start over. I do my drilling on the lathe, which is not only more accurate for me, but disciplines me to prep several blanks while I have the drilling set-up on the lathe.

We never will get 100% glue coverage, so letting it cure well will strengthen the contact that we get. Patience in prep, and patience in turning--developing both has made me faster in the long run as I don't have as much wasted time or material.

earl
 

el_chupo_

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Thank you all for the great responses.

I am building up my brad point drill bit collection, though at some point soon I will have to bite the bullet and just buy some full sets. That is a great suggestion, and one I looked at initially, then bypassed for a "buy the bit for the kit" mindset, leaving me little options when a bit flexes or other small issue.

To clarify my normal procedure, my standard is to drill blanks and verify tube fits. Then I scuff tubes with sandpaper (whatever is on hand, but always 120-180) in both vertical and horizontal directions.

For glue I will run 3-4 "beads" the length of the tube, then twist when inserting. I had one with regular med CA that actually got stuck out of the blank (one of my first tries after using epoxy), so I know I am not twisting the CA tubes as much as I do with epoxy.

With epoxy I mix with a wooden coffee stir stick, slather it up and down the tube, then insert and twist around quite a bit more. It seems like I need to get more comfortable with CA in those instances (or trust the work time on this Dap stuff a bit more), and make sure coverage is good.

I think I may try some gorilla glue on one or two in the future (I may wait until I have a little bit loose of a fit) and see how that goes.

But the gist of most replies seems to be "get consistent with good technique, and plan ahead" and I will have better long term results.

You have all confirmed that I am probably the biggest "problem". I will try to slow down, get more used to each method. I think I may just buy a few multi-packs of slim pens and some spare tubes so I have easy mix and match materials and a consistent pen kit to learn on. They will make great office gifts and whatnot and provide some inexpensive learning at a low cost.

Again, I appreciate all of the great help.
 

TonyL

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Just something to keep in mind: 5 minute or 15 minute (etc.) epoxy usually refers to the working or handling time. I have found it to be a good practice to read the label as to the actual curing time. Very often it is a lot longer than the stated working time. Have said that, I use epoxy 90% of the time; 100% of the time with synthetic materials (but many use CA with excellent results). Happy gluing!
 

randyrls

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I am building up my brad point drill bit collection, though at some point soon I will have to bite the bullet and just buy some full sets.

Matt; Brad point bits are not the best for drilling blanks. (Brad points are terrible for acrylic blanks). Others have different opinions. A full set of fractional, letter and number drill bits will only set you back about $75-100. Add a set of Metric bits and you are set for life. I got a good deal on a set of Chicago-Latrobe bits a few years ago from MSC. Advice: Get a cheap full set and when you use a bit mark the shank. After you get so many marks, get a single good bit (Norton, Chicago-latrobe, etc).

The drill bit size on the instructions is the closest commonly available size. Notice I didn't say best fit?? I've found that often the best fit is a sliding, no slop fit; but doesn't match the instructions. I write the bit size on the instructions and it goes into my binder. When I do a 7mm slimline, I use a letter "I" bit, not 7mm. Your mileage may vary.:)

But the gist of most replies seems to be "get consistent with good technique, and plan ahead" and I will have better long term results.

Yes; Exactly!

I think I may just buy a few multi-packs of slim pens and some spare tubes so I have easy mix and match materials and a consistent pen kit to learn on.

You can also get "bulk length" tubes in common sizes usually 7mm, 10mm, or 3/8". These are 10-12" long and allow you to make "modified" pens. Always order a few extra tube sets with your kits.

PS. I tend to be long winded. Sorry.
 
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Lots of good info on this thread. For what it's worth, I use a two part epoxy (system 3) for most all my projects. I've found that as long as I let it sit overnight it holds on extremely well and I've never had a problem with any blow outs. I use it on my knife handles as well and I've only had one knife returned from a failed glue up (it was actually caused by abuse by the buyer). I use a very liberal amount of the glue, put it on a drying rack overnight and then turn my project the next day. In a pinch I'll use CA but again, I use probably more than I need to but I've never had a problem using it. Good luck!
 

gtriever

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Just something to keep in mind: 5 minute or 15 minute (etc.) epoxy usually refers to the working or handling time. I have found it to be a good practice to read the label as to the actual curing time. Very often it is a lot longer than the stated working time. Have said that, I use epoxy 90% of the time; 100% of the time with synthetic materials (but many use CA with excellent results). Happy gluing!

This. With 5-minute epoxy I'll give it a minimum of 4-6 hours, and with 30-minute epoxy I'll let it cure overnight. Rarely do I use anything else, now.
 

MRDucks2

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I use Loctite 5 minute epoxy that comes in two bottles (don't like the dual tube hypodermic). As I have improved my fits I find smearing the whole tube does better than just doing the lines. I insert, twisting, then remove and keeping the same orientation, insert from the opposite end while twisting and put in final position.

For me, this helps distribute that gob of glue on the end of the first insertion back into the tube. Plus, it looks like I typically get better coverage on the end I am inserting from, less in the middle and opposite end. As such, by reinserting I minimize the spotty coverage in smaller area of the center.

Something Lee had posted in the past got me experimenting and actual coverage consistency inside the blank is what we need to achieve, regardless of how. I believe most of the glues we try would work well if we could get more complete coverage.


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leehljp

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One more suggestion, maybe it has been mentioned and you might be doing it:
STOP UP the Tubes with wax, clay or plumbers putty to prevent glue from getting inside. Small amounts of glue (CA/epoxy etc) INSIDE the tube can ruin blanks quick when assembling as it will expand the tube and crack the blank on the end.
 

el_chupo_

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Even more good info. I am (I think, though I wont doubt that I can be better) pretty good with the epoxy on making sure I get good coverage, with lots of spinning action,insert from both end, etc. I also skip the last 3/8 of an inch that I hold it with my fingers, then use the blob at the end that comes off the tube when inserting to make sure I have 100% coverage on that final end as well.

I know I was lacking with the CA, and think that probably stems from my "get it in fast" mentality with the CA due to one sticky blank.

But I dont wait 6 hours on Epoxy either. I am more impatient than I think, sometimes...

Good idea on the drill bits, and a couple of mentions on a few different places regarding plugging the end. Thus far I have not done anything, but I use a barrel cleaner/pen mill to square up ends, so that gets that taken care of, and if I see anything else or have any difficulty with bushings I take a blade to the inside to clean it up. May have to steal some playdoh from my niece...
 

mmayo

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The 5 minute epoxy from Craft supplies USA is the stuff for me. System Three epoxy ( and I love their spar varnish) is too thick and pushes in my basewax plugs too often. That does not happen even in winter with the CSUSA stuff. I have a lot of it that sits for other, non-pen projects.
 

philipff

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This is the time tested correct answer!! Use a spray of water in the blank first, then apply the tube with glue and you will NEVER have a failure. 'nufsaid" - for the 10th time. Philip
 

More4dan

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I've been using Medium CA lately with all my blanks, I have little patience to wait on glue to dry. Since changing my technique I haven't had any problems. I now always add glue to the blank from one end opposite the end I insert the tube. I then add glue to the tube like Edgar says like someone else is buying it. Twist while inserting it. When you just put glue on the tube, the glue wipes off as it goes into the blank sometimes not leaving enough for the far end. Adding glue to the blank on the opposite end makes sure there is coverage on both ends. Clay plugs in the tube is a must. I usually start turning within 5-10 minutes.

For acrylics I've found there is no short cuts when back painting the blanks. The paint has to dry at least a day.


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