rlh
Member
Is there any difference in durability between Black Titanium and Gold Titanium? It was suggested that I start using Titanium in my pens as it will hold up much better than 24kt. Upgrade Gold.
Titanium: Black vs. Gold
- Thread starter rlh
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There may be some small difference between the platings, however, since they are both virtual lifetime platings I wouldn't let the difference sway you. Here is an explanation provided by Jim Heusinger of Berea Hard Woods.
For Jim's complete explanation of platings used by Berea, visit http://tinyurl.com/buzpe
For Jim's complete explanation of platings used by Berea, visit http://tinyurl.com/buzpe
Fred in NC
Member
These are the key words in the post by Lou (DCBluesman), about the GOLD titanium:
"will virtually never SHOW wear."
That is because the underlying plating is the same gold color, or very close.
The black titanium has no other plating on top.
My experience with the black titanium is very recent, so I cannot talk from experience, but this is a very tough material, and should last a very long time.
"will virtually never SHOW wear."
That is because the underlying plating is the same gold color, or very close.
The black titanium has no other plating on top.
My experience with the black titanium is very recent, so I cannot talk from experience, but this is a very tough material, and should last a very long time.
btboone
Member
They use both titanium nitride (gold color) and titanium carbo nitride (black color) coatings for cutting tools. The black is harder than the gold, and the gold's no slouch.
driften
Member
I really like the BlackTi and wish more kits were offered in it!
alamocdc
Member
Ditto!
Rifleman1776
Member
Several months ago I posed the question asking how many memebers had actually had experience with plating wearing off. This discussion arises frequently and those who are successful in selling pens frequently state they will only provide the best possible for their customers, probably meaning the titanium finish. That approach to quality is admirable. But what I asked was for feedback on actuall experience with plating failure. As I recall, there were none except for my discussion of two observations. That was (and still is) my personal pen is a 24K gold Baron that I have been using daily for about eight months. It shows no sign of wear. Another observation, not a pen, but comparable, is a pill bottle key chain fob in 24k. It has been carried and used daily for more than a year. About six months ago it showed a lot of wear in the gold plating. Of course, it get more handling and a different type than a pen. But I have to wonder just how vunerable 24k pen plating really is. For now, my pens are made as follows: Slimlines priced at $20.00 get 24k; Europeans priced at $30-$35 get upgrade gold; Barons priced at $40.00 up get titanium. On the other hand, if my personal doesn't show wear, possibly by the end of this year, I'm going to go with the cheaper kits and do everything in 24k. That is just one persons observation. I sure would like to get other imput from first-hand experience of people who have actually seen plating wear.
Fred in NC
Member
Frank, the pen I use the most is one I made out of birch plywood (ready-made lamination!). It is one of the cheap 24K PSI slimline kits. It has been under constant use for a year, and in and out of my pocket where I also have my glasses. I just checked it with a magnifier. The plating shows no sign of wear.
The PSI catalog, near the beginning of the pen kits, has a statement about their 24K gold plating:
"... It is covered with an epoxy coating for durability. Guaranteed to be beautiful and long lasting with a lifetime warranty."
Of course I don't think they will last forever.
I am not sure whether the 24K kits from other manufacturers are epoxy coated. I had a couple where the plating showed signs of wear in a short time.
The PSI catalog, near the beginning of the pen kits, has a statement about their 24K gold plating:
"... It is covered with an epoxy coating for durability. Guaranteed to be beautiful and long lasting with a lifetime warranty."
Of course I don't think they will last forever.
I am not sure whether the 24K kits from other manufacturers are epoxy coated. I had a couple where the plating showed signs of wear in a short time.
M
Mudder
Guest
Sounds to me like you need to get that piece of denim back out and rub some pens Lou. I want a fully detailed report posted by 6:00am. Monday morning. Got that grunt!? [
]Oops, I dud it now.
Fred in NC
Member
As for lifetime warranty, sometimes I wonder whether it means the life of the user, his dog, or the life of the plating. When the plating rubbs off, the warranty is ended ....
Rudy Vey
Member
Some long time ago, Lou (DCBluesman)had done some testing on all types of plating. He kinda rubbed the plating with a devise with some denim cloth many times and evaluated the platings afterwards. As far as I remember correctly the Titanium-based platings and Platinum as well as Chrome were the best, showing no wear. If you do a search here you may find this or Lou will guide you towards it.
As far as my experience goes, it is as follows:
I carry a Titaniumgold FT pen for well over two years now and it does not show any wear, and I am one of these pen handlers, always playing with it. On the other hand, using an up-grade gold plating on an European double twist pens showed first sign of wear only after only 4 or 6 weeks in my use! I had made some Gent Jr in the gold version and gave one of it as a present to a friend in NJ. When I saw that pen about 6 month later it really had nearly no gold left on it!
For myself I have already a long time ago decided only to offer the best of the platings to my customers: Titanium Gold, Black Titanium and Platinum.
I must say that I have no experience with the kits from PSI, they claim that their gold plating is guaranteed for life. My experience is only with Berea and Craftsupplies kits. And in both cases their gold plating will wear off eventually.
The first time I saw Titanium Nitride coatings was in the early 80's. It was used to coat forging tooling for severe cold forging processes and made it possible to extend tool life tremendously (when a punch that was not coated had a lifetime of 10000 parts, the Titanium Nitride coated did easy more than 200000).
Pretty much all the high end pen makers using gold platings, but these are much, much thicker than what we get on the pen kits. Gold is a very soft metal that wears very easily, maybe some of you have seen the wedding rings of their parents or grandparent how thin they became after many years of wearing them.
As far as my experience goes, it is as follows:
I carry a Titaniumgold FT pen for well over two years now and it does not show any wear, and I am one of these pen handlers, always playing with it. On the other hand, using an up-grade gold plating on an European double twist pens showed first sign of wear only after only 4 or 6 weeks in my use! I had made some Gent Jr in the gold version and gave one of it as a present to a friend in NJ. When I saw that pen about 6 month later it really had nearly no gold left on it!
For myself I have already a long time ago decided only to offer the best of the platings to my customers: Titanium Gold, Black Titanium and Platinum.
I must say that I have no experience with the kits from PSI, they claim that their gold plating is guaranteed for life. My experience is only with Berea and Craftsupplies kits. And in both cases their gold plating will wear off eventually.
The first time I saw Titanium Nitride coatings was in the early 80's. It was used to coat forging tooling for severe cold forging processes and made it possible to extend tool life tremendously (when a punch that was not coated had a lifetime of 10000 parts, the Titanium Nitride coated did easy more than 200000).
Pretty much all the high end pen makers using gold platings, but these are much, much thicker than what we get on the pen kits. Gold is a very soft metal that wears very easily, maybe some of you have seen the wedding rings of their parents or grandparent how thin they became after many years of wearing them.
Ryan
Member
Frank,
I watched one of my best customers wear 10K plating off of a thank you Euro in 30 days. The 10K is said to be more durable. My 24K test Euro shows slight wear after about 4 months but still looks beter than my customers 10K in 15 days.
Different acid levels in the skin?, different care?, Who know?
Ryan
I watched one of my best customers wear 10K plating off of a thank you Euro in 30 days. The 10K is said to be more durable. My 24K test Euro shows slight wear after about 4 months but still looks beter than my customers 10K in 15 days.
Different acid levels in the skin?, different care?, Who know?
Ryan
Here is the link. http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2141
As an aside, the "epoxy" coating by certain manufacturers may be a good answer to the 24k plate wearing quickly. Powder coating often uses epoxies (and numerous other types of resinous compounds). If the manufacturer is using <b>epoxy powder coating</b>, it should be "harder than woodpecker lips". (Don Ward's definition)
Perhaps someone should contact them and ask if this is how their epoxy is applied.
As for you, Mudder, I'm still shaking the bush, Boss!
Rifleman1776
Member
I was going to post a reply to re-activate that post but it is a locked topic. Lou, good information. Even though not perzactly scientific, an excellent reference and guide. Even with the 24K and 3,000 brushings, that's pretty good service for a $20.00 pen. For my pens, from now on I will be staying with 24k on Slims, and use Titanium on Euros and Barons. More money and more elegant pens deserve higher quality.
Rifleman1776
Member
O.K. I got moderator permission to post this info. Can't take credit, though. It is a test done by Lou/DCBluesman last December. I think it is good information. Thanks, Lou. [below is a copy and paste of that original post]
<<Dec 09 2004 : 02:12:26 AM US Eastern Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a PERSONAL post. I wanted to see if I could give some definition to the wearing of the finish on the pen parts in various kits. In no way is this test or the results to be interpreted as coming from the IAP or being validated by the IAP.
My set up is very similar to one that the is used by furniture manufacturers to test fabric samples. I set up a 1/3 HP motor to an oscillator that moved a rubber plate back and forth 3 inches. I attached a small piece of corduroy to the plate. I then mounted various pens parts...caps, centerbands and clips...to a block of wood with 5 minute epoxy.
I then ran the motor at a fairly low speed (500 RPM), timed to approximate the number of brushes against the part. I then tested the parts from various manufacturers. I will not report on the results by plating type and NOT by manufacturer as there would need to be a more rigid structure to testing one manufacturer against another. Let it suffice to say that I used parts from all 3 major manufacturers.
Results
24kt gold plating - Some visible wear at 3-5,000 brushes
Upgrade gold/epoxy gold - Some wear at 5-10,000 brushes
Silver - Some wear at 15-20,000 brushes
10kt gold - some wear at 15,000-20,000 brushes
Chrome, platinum, rhodium, titanium - No noticeable wear at 20,000 brushes
Rose gold - Not tested
These results are from a single test. I haven't subjected them to independent verification. I don't claim that they are accurate, but only the results that I obtained. Use the information at your own discretion and risk. >>
<<Dec 09 2004 : 02:12:26 AM US Eastern Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a PERSONAL post. I wanted to see if I could give some definition to the wearing of the finish on the pen parts in various kits. In no way is this test or the results to be interpreted as coming from the IAP or being validated by the IAP.
My set up is very similar to one that the is used by furniture manufacturers to test fabric samples. I set up a 1/3 HP motor to an oscillator that moved a rubber plate back and forth 3 inches. I attached a small piece of corduroy to the plate. I then mounted various pens parts...caps, centerbands and clips...to a block of wood with 5 minute epoxy.
I then ran the motor at a fairly low speed (500 RPM), timed to approximate the number of brushes against the part. I then tested the parts from various manufacturers. I will not report on the results by plating type and NOT by manufacturer as there would need to be a more rigid structure to testing one manufacturer against another. Let it suffice to say that I used parts from all 3 major manufacturers.
Results
24kt gold plating - Some visible wear at 3-5,000 brushes
Upgrade gold/epoxy gold - Some wear at 5-10,000 brushes
Silver - Some wear at 15-20,000 brushes
10kt gold - some wear at 15,000-20,000 brushes
Chrome, platinum, rhodium, titanium - No noticeable wear at 20,000 brushes
Rose gold - Not tested
These results are from a single test. I haven't subjected them to independent verification. I don't claim that they are accurate, but only the results that I obtained. Use the information at your own discretion and risk. >>
mrcook4570
Member
Lou, I am curious about the silver. Did you use the Sterling Silver plated kits (such as the Baron) or the epoxy coated silver (such as some slimlines)?
Thank you, Frank, for reviving this post. And thank you, Lou, for posting your results.
Thank you, Frank, for reviving this post. And thank you, Lou, for posting your results.
Stan, the silver I used was the slimline silver. I don't think the silver Baron had been introduced at that time. One other note - at the time of the test I thought that all upgrade gold was epoxy coated. Based on my memory (always a risky proposition), this was upgrade gold.
woodbutcher
Member
I made a 24ct slimline for my wife who worked as a dental assistant. She used the pen for about 6 mos before the gold began to show wear. 2 weeks later it was nearly all silver. Fortunately the pen looks great silver too. ( according to her!) It was at that point I replaced every 24ct pen sold with titanium at no cost to my customers. In fact I left the original with them too. The only time I use 24 ct now is when teaching new turners to make pens. One of the pens was sold to a Dr who used the pen only to write bills once a month. Over a year with no wear signs. The pen was perfect, so mebe if not used too often a 24 ct finish could last a number of yrs. Hope this helps,
Jim []
Jim [
]
B
Bill Baumbeck
Guest
Hi Folks,
I would like to make a correction and submit some information that may help in this discussion:
The Baron that Frank referred to is plated in upgrade gold. This pen is not available in 24k nor will it ever be. There's no sense in putting a spray can paint finish on a Corvette if you know what I mean.
Here is a guide on platings that I have posted in my website. It may answer some of the questions brought up in this thread:
Gold Plating: Gold plating is ultimately not durable when exposed to abrasion. There just is no "free lunch". Gold plating can be made more durable depending on the method used to plate, additives to the gold and techniques employed during plating. However, no matter what is done to the alloy, ALL gold plating will wear off over time when abraded. This is simply a fact of physics. Platings other than gold can be very durable. The following is an explanation of the various platings used by Berea Hardwoods:
Upgrade Gold: All gold plating used on the Berea kits is 24k "upgrade gold". Upgrade means that the parts are plated using the rack method and that small amounts of cobalt or palladium are added to the plating chemicals. This enhances the durability of the gold plating. This plating does not last forever but it wears a lot better than standard 24k plated parts.
Titanium Gold: Titanium plating produces an extremely durable and the most durable finish. The process uses what is called PVD (particle vapor deposition). Titanium oxide matched to the color of the gold is molecularly bonded to the part and the 24k gold is bonded (sputtered) on the parts to achieve a color match to the other gold parts. The parts are again re-plated after this step. The final result is that the parts will virtually never show wear. Berea Hardwoods pioneered this process for writing instruments and are not aware of another company using the exact process that they use.
18k Swiss Rose Gold: This is a very rare and unusual plating. Copper and gold are combined in such a way that they both plate with their atoms equally mixed together. The pats to be plated are specially treated before plating and the plating is deposited in a very thick layer. Not only does this produce a beautiful sumptuous look but is it very durable. It has been indicated that there are only two companies in the world able to do this plating and that under regular careful use the plating should hold up for several years. The copper in the alloy can cause Swiss rose gold can tarnish but it's beautiful luster can be brought back by lightly buffing the surface. A coat of Renaissance Wax will also help protect the plating.
Chrome: This is an extremely durable plating. Under normal use this plating should hold up for many years.
Platinum: This is also a very durable hard plating. Berea uses real platinum rather than rhodium and it should be expected to hold up under normal careful use for many years.
Black Titanium: This is a titanium oxide molecularly bonded (PVD) process. This plating is unbelievably hard and durable and much tougher than titanium nitride. It will last for many, many years.
Sterling Silver: the Baron rollerball and fountain pen kits feature this plating. The parts receive a restaurant grade 20 micron plating to ensure the beauty lasts for many, many years.
A note on the sterling silver plating: These kits receive a 20 micron plating. Normal plating ranges between 4 and 5 microns in thickness. The sterling silver plating is extreamly durable.
Kits that have an epoxy plating are not totally wear resistant considering how thin the epoxy coating has to be without being noticable. I have been told that the epoxy coating is actually shellac and most of you that have used Mylands Friction Polish and/or HUT Crystal Coat know that these two finishes are shellac based and do not last forever. I personally believe that the 'epoxy claim' is more of a marketing technique than a durability claim.
Bottom line: Any gold plating (with the exception of gold titanium) is guaranteed to wear over time.
As for the 'lifetime guarantee': Companies who offer this warranty have conducted extensive studies to determine (1) just how long does a particular plating last, and (2) what is the average time it takes for a person to loose, misplace, or have his/her pen 'grow legs' (gets stolen or 'appropriated'). If a particular pen kit has a 'lifetime guarantee' and lasts the 'test of time' companies offering this warranty will replace the kit but not the entire pen (wood, acrylic, etc.). This guarantee sounds great but you, the creator, must replicate the original pen (metal, wood, etc.) when you offer a lifetime guarantee and yet you have no control on how the pen is used/abused. Something to think about when selling your pens.
Someone mentioned something about the acidity found in a person's skin. I have a customer who carries his pens in his neck of his T-shirt with the pen laying next to his skin. The kits he uses are platinum/rhodium (these are not Berea kits). Within two weeks the plating on the kit has turned dull & grey. He will not use titanium kits because he like the 'silver' finish. So, as a result, he is stuck with a dull, grey plated pen. Acidity does have an effect on platings.
Hope I've given you all enough to think about!
BB
I would like to make a correction and submit some information that may help in this discussion:
The Baron that Frank referred to is plated in upgrade gold. This pen is not available in 24k nor will it ever be. There's no sense in putting a spray can paint finish on a Corvette if you know what I mean.
Here is a guide on platings that I have posted in my website. It may answer some of the questions brought up in this thread:
Gold Plating: Gold plating is ultimately not durable when exposed to abrasion. There just is no "free lunch". Gold plating can be made more durable depending on the method used to plate, additives to the gold and techniques employed during plating. However, no matter what is done to the alloy, ALL gold plating will wear off over time when abraded. This is simply a fact of physics. Platings other than gold can be very durable. The following is an explanation of the various platings used by Berea Hardwoods:
Upgrade Gold: All gold plating used on the Berea kits is 24k "upgrade gold". Upgrade means that the parts are plated using the rack method and that small amounts of cobalt or palladium are added to the plating chemicals. This enhances the durability of the gold plating. This plating does not last forever but it wears a lot better than standard 24k plated parts.
Titanium Gold: Titanium plating produces an extremely durable and the most durable finish. The process uses what is called PVD (particle vapor deposition). Titanium oxide matched to the color of the gold is molecularly bonded to the part and the 24k gold is bonded (sputtered) on the parts to achieve a color match to the other gold parts. The parts are again re-plated after this step. The final result is that the parts will virtually never show wear. Berea Hardwoods pioneered this process for writing instruments and are not aware of another company using the exact process that they use.
18k Swiss Rose Gold: This is a very rare and unusual plating. Copper and gold are combined in such a way that they both plate with their atoms equally mixed together. The pats to be plated are specially treated before plating and the plating is deposited in a very thick layer. Not only does this produce a beautiful sumptuous look but is it very durable. It has been indicated that there are only two companies in the world able to do this plating and that under regular careful use the plating should hold up for several years. The copper in the alloy can cause Swiss rose gold can tarnish but it's beautiful luster can be brought back by lightly buffing the surface. A coat of Renaissance Wax will also help protect the plating.
Chrome: This is an extremely durable plating. Under normal use this plating should hold up for many years.
Platinum: This is also a very durable hard plating. Berea uses real platinum rather than rhodium and it should be expected to hold up under normal careful use for many years.
Black Titanium: This is a titanium oxide molecularly bonded (PVD) process. This plating is unbelievably hard and durable and much tougher than titanium nitride. It will last for many, many years.
Sterling Silver: the Baron rollerball and fountain pen kits feature this plating. The parts receive a restaurant grade 20 micron plating to ensure the beauty lasts for many, many years.
A note on the sterling silver plating: These kits receive a 20 micron plating. Normal plating ranges between 4 and 5 microns in thickness. The sterling silver plating is extreamly durable.
Kits that have an epoxy plating are not totally wear resistant considering how thin the epoxy coating has to be without being noticable. I have been told that the epoxy coating is actually shellac and most of you that have used Mylands Friction Polish and/or HUT Crystal Coat know that these two finishes are shellac based and do not last forever. I personally believe that the 'epoxy claim' is more of a marketing technique than a durability claim.
Bottom line: Any gold plating (with the exception of gold titanium) is guaranteed to wear over time.
As for the 'lifetime guarantee': Companies who offer this warranty have conducted extensive studies to determine (1) just how long does a particular plating last, and (2) what is the average time it takes for a person to loose, misplace, or have his/her pen 'grow legs' (gets stolen or 'appropriated'). If a particular pen kit has a 'lifetime guarantee' and lasts the 'test of time' companies offering this warranty will replace the kit but not the entire pen (wood, acrylic, etc.). This guarantee sounds great but you, the creator, must replicate the original pen (metal, wood, etc.) when you offer a lifetime guarantee and yet you have no control on how the pen is used/abused. Something to think about when selling your pens.
Someone mentioned something about the acidity found in a person's skin. I have a customer who carries his pens in his neck of his T-shirt with the pen laying next to his skin. The kits he uses are platinum/rhodium (these are not Berea kits). Within two weeks the plating on the kit has turned dull & grey. He will not use titanium kits because he like the 'silver' finish. So, as a result, he is stuck with a dull, grey plated pen. Acidity does have an effect on platings.
Hope I've given you all enough to think about!
BB
rlh
Member
Wow!! I never expected so much information from so many people! Thank you to everyone who spent the time to reply to my question. The help you gave me is greatly appreciated!![][]
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