Threading blanks themselves

[Texatdurango]

Sitting here far away from my lathe, reading the Stylus magazines I got from Anthony, seeing all the wonderful fountain pens, got me to wondering…..

Could I make a nice “kit less†fountain pen myself?

I’d love to take a nice piece of my favorite amboyna burl or an acrylic blank, make a “closed end†lower barrel, thread the inside to accept a nib holder then thread the outside to accept the “closed end†upper barrel which is also threaded, all without using anything but a nib holder and no other kit parts.

I think threading the inside to accept a nib holder would be easy enough once the proper tap is found but wonder if there is a tap and die set large enough, with fine enough threads to create the outer threads on the lower barrel and inner threads of the upper barrel?

Anyone come across a tap and die set that would work? If so, what sizes should I try to find if creating a pen roughly the size (diameter) of a Jr. Statesman?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[rlharding]

Did you see the wonderful blue pen with thin red bands that was posted a few days ago? That was made without a kit. There may be info in that thread.

 

[DCBluesman]

This has come up several times, George. In order to be fairly useful, the threads have to be multi-start. That increases the difficulty and costs significantly (the tap and die can cost hundreds of dollars). The external threads are generally a bit easier than the internal threads. To do both accurately you really need a metal lathe or better yet a CNC mill and a lot of experience/patience. I've not seen a lot of success from even the most experienced pen makers.

 

[GaryMGg]

Lou,

I'm not questioning your expertise; rather I'd like an explanation as I don't understand the necessity: Why do the threads have to be multi-start[?]

 

[Texatdurango]

Well, THAT rained all over my little parade!

I'm still thinking of ways to do it though!

I'd ask Santa for a little metal lathe but don't think I'm ready to listen to the fallout!

 

[DCBluesman]

Gary - Heck, I'd have asked that question if you hadn't! I'm no engineer, but here is a complete description of the advantages and disadvantages of single versus multi start threads and also methods of thread locking. It is taken from Patent #5769254 It doesn't relate to pens, but it does relate to threaded caps and the application is obvious.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5769254-description.html

 

[Texatdurango]

Originally posted by rlharding

Did you see the wonderful blue pen with thin red bands that was posted a few days ago? That was made without a kit. There may be info in that thread.

I didn't see the pen you mention. I am in an RV park with very poor wifi so haven't looked at any photos lately since most take forever to view. I just browsed the SYOP and took forever just to scroll through the first five or six posts so I quit. Could you please tell me which poster put up the photo? It'll save me a lot of time... I HATE slow connections! Thanks.

 

[Paul in OKC]

I thnk the main thing on caps is that you don't spend a lot of time screwing the cap off or on. If the part was thick, you could probably get away with about 1 1/2 threads of a coarser thread, but more coarse thread is a deeper thread. I have stayed out of the discussions on this, but think about it often.

 

[LanceD]

Originally posted by rlharding

Did you see the wonderful blue pen with thin red bands that was posted a few days ago? . That was made without a kit There may be info in that thread.

George this is the pen that he was talking about.

That pen was made with some of the parts from and El Grande/Churchill kit. I believe in his post he said he used the nib holder and centerband.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=31201

 

[Texatdurango]

Thanks Lance, That pen is similar to what I have in mind, something with a little less metal surrounding the pen. And yes, it looks like he did use the factory threaded parts, something I too will have to do if I can't get around the threading obstacle.

On my desk are six fountain pens filled with different colors of ink and after writing my first post I was sitting here looking at them and two of the "el cheapo" Artisan pens from Craft Supply gave me an idea.

They don't screw together, they snap together which as I understand it, is a very old way of attaching an upper barrel.

I think the plastic "lid" can be affixed into a closed end design easily enough giving one a very clean looking pen without any centerband at all, especially given that all of the replacement nibs Craft Supply sells will snap into them.

Onward...!

 

[Firefyter-emt]

Originally posted by rlharding

Did you see the wonderful blue pen with thin red bands that was posted a few days ago? That was made without a kit. There may be info in that thread.

And to quote... A bit misleading really, as the pen still uses the tubes, (I assume) the nib holder thread, the entire nib holder and feed assy., as well as the center coupler without the trim band.

Still a very nice pen, although I think a solid gold nib and recessing the CB threads fully inside the cap would really make this pen supurb! (and just for the record, it is now!)

 

[desert1pocket]

When used on wood, taps and dies do more tearing, compressing, and crushing of the wood fibers than actual cutting. The resulting threads are usually fragile, and prone to breaking or stripping out. This is especially true for threads that will be used constantly (like a pen cap), as opposed to structural threading.

Nice reliable threads can be produced in many woods by cutting them with live tooling, which would really require a metal lathe. I suppose if you rigged a cross feed to your wood lathe, you could then attatch a dremel or similar tool to live cut the threads.

If you are really serious about it, I would suggest picking up a small metal lathe. They can often be found for a few hundred bucks, and I would think the live tooling would be pretty cheap to set up.

 

[Texatdurango]

Speaking of "live tooling", I have the Klein threading jig which can cut fine threads in wood such as lidded boxes and one of the tricks to keep tear out to a minimum is to flood the threaded area with CA prior to cutting. This tool might be sufficient for cutting the lower barrel but not the upper barrel because the cutter head diameter is too large to fit inside the pen barrel.

I'm wondering what accessories would be required if one were to buy an inexpensive metal lathe? I would spend a few hundred dollars for thread cutting capability but wouldn't want to get carried away... as I did with my two wood lathes and the thousands of dollars in miscellaneous tooling! Any machinists care to chime in with their expertise?

 

[GaryMGg]

www.lathemaster.com

 

[ashaw]

Multi-start tap and die is the way to go but has to be custom made. The cheapest set I have found was $500.00 for the Churchill size. As far as a metal lathe goes. All I know as far as pricing goes it will be well above what I already have spent on my shop. The metal lathe is not that expensive but the tooling required will ran another $500.00 - $1,000.00 and that is not for a cnc setup. The learning curve is another price that has to be paid for. A buddy of mine is a machinist and he figures about 6 month to a year until the lathe is mastered. He is welling to train me but I still not have decided on what direction to go. I hope after the first of the year to have some idea which way I am going. I am setting aside about 10k for a machinist lathe and tooling. But that is going to take me about 2 years to come up with that money.

 

[TheHeretic]

look at this. not sure what threading you need but its possible that the 1/2 inch may work. but the threading would be different I believe.

Dean
Columbus OH

 

[Monty]

Originally posted by TheHeretic

look at this. not sure what threading you need but its possible that the 1/2 inch may work. but the threading would be different I believe.

Dean
Columbus OH

Look at what [?][?][?]

 

[Daniel]

I echo Alan (ashaw) I spent over $300 on the lowest price metal lathe I could find. well over $300 on tools and I can't do much more on it than turn rods to a smaller diameter. The Idea that it would only take 6 months to master is incouraging. my experience could be better measured in hours. was looking at the lathemaster site and drooling over the indexable tool bits. I am still using hss that you have to grind to the profile you want. so add a good grinder to the list of tools needed. I've never tried threading with it but it will. I'm waiting until I can get a consistantly smooth cut on a rod before I try that. Speed of turning and the rate you feed the tool into the material become critical. there are a tone of charts etc. out there but you almost need a degree to understand them. I would love to find a machinist that would make me the same offer Alan got.

 

[sptfr43]

first of all the threads do NOT have to be multi start. It is possible to do the whole bit with a tap and die set from harbor freight. How do I know ?, because I have done it. I haven't been able to make the pen from wood though because the wood does tear as was mentioned but with ebonite it is very doable. It suprises me that with all the experience on this board I haven't seen more inventive pens than just a few people pushing the envelope and leaving kits behind.

 

[RussFairfield]

There are really only 2 choices for cutting our own threads. One is to pay someone to make the tap and die for cutting the threads. The other is to invest in a small machinists lathe so we can cut our own threads. The "Lathemaster" has been suggected, and there are simular machines available from Grizzly, Enco, Harbor Freight, and others. I added a threading attachment to the Sherline that I already had and it works only OK, but it does get the job done.

If you choose to buy the lathe, the 1st thing you will discover is that becoming a skilled machinist and being able to cut good threads takes a lot more time than becoming a skilled pen turner.

The 2nd thing you will find is that plastics are not the easiest material to cut a thread into with a tool in the lathe, and that a tap and die will cut a better thread in a plastic. For the small number of threads most of us will be making, a mild steel tap and die will last forever.

You can also make taps and dies from hardened screws and buts, if you can find the right sizes, by cutting slots across the threads with a file. The only problem with doing this is that none of the available pen parts are standard thread dimeter or pitch, and you will be having to cut your own threads in both of the mating parts.

Having gone this route, I think you will discover that using the threaded parts from the kits is by far the easiest way to go. There are some limitations when we use the threaded parts from the kits, but looking at many of the photos posted on this forum, there aren't very many.

 

[RussFairfield]

Without getting into a engineering of thread design, there are 3 good reasons for the multiple lead threads (usually 4) in the cap of a pen.

The biggest reason for them is that the cap is more user friendly. There is a lot less twisting of the cap to find the thread and screw it on the pen than there would be with a single lead thread. One full turn and a quarter on an ElGrande is a lot easier to use than having to twist the cap 6 times to get it on the pen. 5 full threads is the accepted standard for the strongest thread in a single lead.

Another reason is one of strength, and this is important in plastic. It is easier to lock and unlock the thread when it is bottomed out without over twisting and damaging the threads. The added mechanical advantage of the shallow lead of a single thread makes it very easy to over twist the cap and strip the threads.

The 3rd reason is that the longer lead angle of the multiple threads makes the cap less likely to unscrew by itself when designed properly. I know there are pen kits where this is not true, but that is a function of a poor design where the threads are either too loose a fit, not long enough, or both.

 

[dfurlano]

Threads in wood for pens is not a great idea. Even the hardest wood is relatively very soft and can easily become damaged, over stressed, and wood threads like to stick. If you are making something large like a box they work fine but a pen takes a lot more abuse then a box that sits on a table.

All that stuff about multi-start goes out the window if your pen cap and body needs to be aligned.

These were machine cut:

 

[Paul in OKC]

Originally posted by Texatdurango

Speaking of "live tooling", I have the Klein threading jig which can cut fine threads in wood such as lidded boxes and one of the tricks to keep tear out to a minimum is to flood the threaded area with CA prior to cutting. This tool might be sufficient for cutting the lower barrel but not the upper barrel because the cutter head diameter is too large to fit inside the pen barrel.

I'm wondering what accessories would be required if one were to buy an inexpensive metal lathe? I would spend a few hundred dollars for thread cutting capability but wouldn't want to get carried away... as I did with my two wood lathes and the thousands of dollars in miscellaneous tooling! Any machinists care to chime in with their expertise?

They make very small internal cutters cutters that could be used n a dremel type tool. They cut very shallow as far as depth into the bore goes. I used to make joint protectors for a cue maker friend, drilled and tapped most of them. For maple, I coated the inside with CA before tapping. Ebony and cocobolo cut pretty good. But we are also talking about a little deeper thread than what pen parts are. I did 10, 14, and 18 threads on the protectors. Used 1" long metal threaded pins for the male ends.

 

[ed4copies]

Originally posted by sptfr43

first of all the threads do NOT have to be multi start. It is possible to do the whole bit with a tap and die set from harbor freight. How do I know ?, because I have done it. I haven't been able to make the pen from wood though because the wood does tear as was mentioned but with ebonite it is very doable. It suprises me that with all the experience on this board I haven't seen more inventive pens than just a few people pushing the envelope and leaving kits behind.

Randy,

I believe this is a case where people MAY be DOING it and not SHOWING it. (Not me, by the way). Also, the people in the industry who I KNOW do this are not active on the IAP forum and would not answer the hundreds of "How did you do that??" questions they would receive.

So, because it is NOT posted here does NOT mean it is NOT being done! (Triple negative beats double negative every time!!)

 

[DCBluesman]

Randy - I agree that threads do not have to be multi-start. I have tapped my own pen with a tap and die as well. Like you, I do not show a picture in my album and have not displayed it on this forum. Why not? Because in order for it to work, I had to tap it deep enough to where it takes 4 complete revolutions to seat fully and stay closed. Also, it's a pain in the keester to insure that it doesn't cross-thread. It took about half a dozen trials to get one done and I'm not at all happy with it. Yes, you CAN use a single start thread on a pen to seat the section and cap, but why WOULD you? BTW, there are any number of folks who are working on multi-start tap and die sets, they are just choosing to remain mum on the subject.

 

[TheHeretic]

whoops I forgot to put the net article in that I was referring to.
http://www.bealltool.com/products/threading/threader.php

sorry about that.


Dean
columbus OH

 

[RussFairfield]

Thanks, Ed. You are correct in saying that just because it isn't here on the IAP pages doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thjere are people who are making pens and cutting their own threads as a matter of course.

I have been cutting threads for the Bexley nibs and grip sections for several years before there were other alternatives available to fit the kit sections. I still choose to use the Bexley nibs because, whatever their cost, the Bexley name on the nib of my pen is a standard of quality that sells and adds value to the price of my pen.

I have also made more than a few pens that didn't use anything from the kit other than the clip. But, there is no way I can, or will, give a detailed description of how to do it on a pen forum. Right or wrong as you might see it, what you got in my previous message is about as far as it will get. I have three reasons for saying this. First of all, this is not a forum for professional penmakers. These are folks who have Jet Mini-lathes. Secondly, it would be impossible to describe the process so it could be duplicated in a forum message. And thirdly, there is no way that messages here can convey the skills that came from an apprenticeship and working for 10 years as a machinist. I do it because it easy for me, and I have a lathe and small milling machine to do it with, and there are others who are doing it for the same reasons. If anyone is interested, they can get their own lathe and spend the time learning how to do it. It isn't rocket science, but it is beyond the scope of this forum.

I choose to still use the threaded parts from the kit for a marketing reason. The kit threads allow me to make a pen with the least investment in time and equipment so I can sell more of them at a reasonable price.

The degree of customizing that all the cutting of custom threads entails gets me into a large investment in time and some automatic tooling so they are easier and faster to make. That gets me into making a pen that I would have to sell for at least $500. That market puts me into competition with the custom pen makers where "name" and reputation is important if I want to sell pens. I don't have that "name", so I can't compete with those who do. Getting that "name" would require a large investment in advertising and time by going to all of the pen shows around the country. Those expenses and the "name" would add another $500 onto the price of every pen that I sold, and my $500 pen is now a $1000 pen. Since I don't want to be in the $1000 pen market, I make the same pen with kit threads and am quite happy with selling it for $200. I am quite content with knowing that I can and have made a pen, and sold a few of them, that is the equal of anything that sells for $1000. And, it doesn't bother me at all that nobody in the greater world of fountain pens has ever heard of me.

 

[ed4copies]

Russ,

I believe the "IAP membership" encompasses many types of folks. But one thing that certainly emerges is the propensity to copy. While imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, MY innovative designs will not be likely to be seen on ANY forum so my customers continue to perceive them as "innovative" and not "just another ,,,,,,, pen". Additionally, if my "innovative" idea is poorly "imitated", it cheapens MY pens, although they are performed flawlessly. (to the limits of human imperfections)

I guess my point is this: We all have ideas that we have made work. WHEN you decide you'd like to try a new technique, as George has proposed here - GO FOR IT!!! If everyone who WRITES on the forum tells you it can't be done, so WHAT??? Give it a shot! IF you fail, keep it to yourself. IF YOU SUCCEED, you may also choose to keep it to yourself to avoid being asked for a "step-by-step" tutorial.

As it relates to this thread, George - it CAN be done. Your past successes indicate that you WILL do it, if you keep trying. AFTER you succeed, you will need to evaluate what materials YOU BELIEVE can be used to achieve longevity and durability - I think THIS is a bigger question than CAN you do it. WHY and HOW will you do it WELL!!!!!??? You may decide to use the kit parts for all the reasons Russ has given. BUT, you will know you COULD HAVE made your own parts AND WHY you did NOT. This is great information for your "pen-sales efforts".

Good Luck and sorry this got so long - bit of a sore point since a good friend got in lots of trouble over this type of question.[B)][B)][B)]

 

[desert1pocket]

I have some backround working as a machinist, and have done a lot of cutting of threads in wood and plastics while doing work on pool cues. Some of the threaded parts were smaller than they would be on a pen, and durable enough for most pen applications. I have set up small metal lathes for cue repair that could easily cut reliable threaded wood pen parts, and for a cost of under $1000. You would need a small metal lathe with threading capabilities, a laminate trim router with quality bearings (a dremel will not work), some small thread cutters, some homemade brackets, and most importantly the knowledge and experience on how to properly use a metal lathe. Multi start threading would require the addition of a spin index and some more homemade bracketing.

This does not mean to say that I reccomend it. Operating a metal lathe safely with the desired results, takes knowledge and experience that most people do not possess, and the learning curve is a long one. As Russ mentioned, even having the set-up and the knowledge, does not make it practical for many reasons.

With all of the kits out there, I honestly don't think using a few parts is very limiting to what you can do. It would be easy enough to turn off sections of the kit parts, and reccess them into the wood. This would give you the freedom of design wanted, with the added durability of metal (or plastic) threads. Best of all, it would take much less time than cutting your own threads, and wouldn't require any special equipment or knowledge.

 

[dfurlano]

If you say it will work in wood show some wood parts that are threaded with a center hole drilled out and not a solid post. I know nothing about pool cues but the custom ones I have seen the butt sections are threaded and then a plastic/metal fitting are glued on the wood threads. I have not seen a pool cue that is finished with wood threads exposed.

To do multi start threads all you need is a lathe (<$500) that has an encoder or threading gears. You do not need a router, brackets or any other special tools other then a single point thread cutter.

 

[desert1pocket]

Originally posted by dfurlano

If you say it will work in wood show some wood parts that are threaded with a center hole drilled out and not a solid post. I know nothing about pool cues but the custom ones I have seen the butt sections are threaded and then a plastic/metal fitting are glued on the wood threads. I have not seen a pool cue that is finished with wood threads exposed.

To do multi start threads all you need is a lathe (<$500) that has an encoder or threading gears. You do not need a router, brackets or any other special tools other then a single point thread cutter.

Chuck Starkey cues are examples of wood threaded into wood. All "big pin" cues (3/8-10, 3/8-11 etc) do not use a shaft insert like you describe. There are many types of cue joints, and all wood pins are admittedly the exception, but female wood threads in the shaft are equally common to ones with shaft inserts. I have at least 6-8 cues myself with wood to wood joints and no shaft insert.

Many cuemakers, like Scott Whisler for example, thread all of the cue components before joining them together. While these parts are not screwed and unscrewed regularly, I have seen cues that were not glued, and could be unscrewed into 10-12 pieces.

As far as using a single point cutter, I am fully aware that threads can be cut that way. As I mentioned in my previous post however, when threading wood, if you want the threads to de durable enough to withstand being screwed and unscrewed regularly, you need to use live tooling to cut the threads (and flood with CA before and after cutting).

Here are some pics-

 

[skiprat]

As someone who makes most of my own 'kits', I also do threading.
I have decided the following ( for me anyway )
1. Single threads DO work but lock and look crap
2. External multistart threads can be done on a decent metal lathe.
3. Internal multistart threads needs Serious machinery
4. MS taps and dies are way too expensive and you only get one size.
5. Expect at least 90% failure rate on anything but metal.
6. In the long run, it is easier AND cheaper to use the parts from kits.

If you use the parts from kits, you KNOW they will work. You won't wreck that awesome piece of wood. You also get the other parts of the pen kit that you will still need.

I don't believe for one second that the only problem with single threads is that you have to unscrew for ever. I believe the MAIN problem is that they LOCK and you have so much mechanical advantage that they are very easy to strip in anything but metal.


But of course, that's just me[)]

 

[Paul in OKC]

Having made holders and brackets for cue makers, I understand where Jason is coming from. I agree as Dremel is not precision enough, but could work. A trim router turned 90 degrees with a small threading tool, (basically a single point thread mill), and run as you would cutting a regular single point thread. I agree that there is a learning curve longer than most may want to experience to learn to use a metal lathe. I can't tell you how many times my boss has asked me 'Can we teach him to thread so he can help you out?' about a guy that has never run a machine at all. It's all I can do to keep from rolling my eyes sometimes!!

 

[dfurlano]

I have never seen cues with threads like that, those are very nice. Thanks for post a photo.

From my testing every time I put threads on the body of a pen the wood becomes too thin and easily gets damaged.

 

[ed4copies]

From the pictures, I would say we are, once again talking about apples and oranges. The cues have a beautiful thread, but it is certainly MUCH too coarse to work on a pen.

This IS pertinent, since a coarse thread will last MUCH longer than a fine one - on wood.
FWIW

 

[desert1pocket]

I agree that a coarser thread is much more durable, and the pictures are not representative of threads that would work for pens. They were merely the result of a very quick internet search. The threads I mentioned having made in wood were much different and much smaller than those pictured. I made lasting threaded fittings as small as 5/16" diameter, plenty small enough for a pen.

My feelings are almost identical to the post by skiprat. I do however think that with an absurd amount of time and effort, the failure rate can be much less than 90%. It will never be as good as plastic or metal though.

Even though I don't see threading wood joints as being useful in making pens, for those who are interested these are some of the things I did to create small diameter durable wooden threads-

1) create an accurate double shoulder system (to reduce excess pressure on the threads themselves)
2) use acme style or square threads (much stronger than standard screw threads)
3) cut with live tooling
4) harden the wood before and after cutting (can be done with ca, thinned epoxy, or other glues)
5) use only well seasoned stable wood
6) only thread tubes if there is sufficient wall thickness to do so

 

[Texatdurango]

Originally posted by skiprat
....4. MS taps and dies are way too expensive and you only get one size.
5. Expect at least 90% failure rate on anything but metal.
6. In the long run, it is easier AND cheaper to use the parts from kits.

Many good comments and opinions so far but I have to sit back and question a few and Skip, yours are handy so please do not take this as me picking on you!

To start, money isn't that big of an obstacle. If it were I would have never considered moving away from the kit pens to begin with. I make pens for enjoyment. After spending thousands on turning tools and supplies, a few hundred more for some specialized tap and die sets, especially if they will give me the results I want, would be money well spent or at least as well as money spent on other things.

I guess I don't understand the failure rate comment. Lately I have been looking at pens that were made back in the 20's and 30's, made of plastics and hard rubber and their threads look exceptional considering how many times the pens must have been opened and closed. Also, many of the newer pens I viewed lately have threaded plastic bodies and if the failure rate was so high I doubt they would be making them that way.

One of the pens that got me to thinking about this threading business to begin with can be found on page 37 of the Oct/Nov 2007 issue of Stylus magazine. There are some Taccia Staccato pens with plastic threads and I think it would be interesting to try and make a similar pen.

Finally, "easier and cheaper" aren't my goals, I want some excitement and a challange.

 

[luke39uk]

I make all the threads on my pens.I don't use taps and dies because of the variation in acrylic resin properties means some threads are 'looser' than others,and also the cost factor.I cut my threads on my metal and CNC lathes where I can control the accuracy of the thread form and hence the fit.My threads use a four start metric thread form,this ensures the thread locks,and unscrews quickly giving an action similar to a breech block.By cutting threads with the lathe it means I can vary the diameter size and design of the pen.Using expensive taps and dies means you are limited to a specific size.
I cut the male or external thread form on the barrel first,and measure it for accuracy using the three wire method.When I'm satisfied with the thread size and form I will cut the threads for the rest of the batch of pens I'm making.I then cut the threads for the caps adjusting the thread forms to suit the barrel threads.This way I can ensure that every pen I make is just right on the thread fit,not to tight and not too loose.
Due to the properties of wood It would be extremely difficult to cut fine threads in wood.That's why most of the major pen companies don't make wooden pens.That's my two cents worth.

 

[Texatdurango]

Bryan, Thanks for the comments. After reading several replies I have decided that if I can make some decent threads with a specialized tap and die, I will give it a go, else decide on customizing kit center bands. I am realizing that that the time it takes to master the skills to turn threads on a metal lathe is a bit daunting at this point.

I haven't totally given up on wood though. I have crafted several segmented pens combining wood and acrylics or truestone. I'll just have to make sure the segment being threaded is acrylic!