Think I may have been talked into shoddy tools...

[mbellek]

I went to Woodcraft today for the first time (and I thought I heard a "Hallelujah!" echoing as I walked in!) and bought some things, one of which was a set of mini-turning tools. I'm concerned that even though I made it very clear to the salesman that I was ready to spend some money on tools--that I valued quality over economy--he steered me toward a set that was $19.99--not on sale.

In the set, "Wilton 5pc. mini-wood lathe chisel set", I got:

-1/4" skew
-1/16" parting tool
-1/8" spindle gouge
-1/4" round-nose scraper
-1/4" roughing-out gouge
-An attractive wood storage case

I asked him "Are these going to dull faster than a more expensive set?"

To which he replied "Well, you really need to sharpen your tools about every 15 mins anyway"

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't sharpen my tools every 15mins... maybe more like every 2 or 3 sessions of turning... probably every 10-15 hours or so, and my large tools are fine that way.

So I'd like some opinions before I get these out of the box and can't return them. Did I make a mistake by buying these?

On the plus side, I figure that if I made it that clear that I was willing to spend a little more, he may have just been being an honest salesman... But I'm hoping that he didn't detect my inexperience and sell me some junk. He didn't seem like a sheister, and he was very kind and helpful and patient with all my questions and lack of knowledge, etc.

I guess I'm just seeking a 2nd opinion (or a 3rd, 4th, etc!).

Thanks!

Mel

 

[LanceD]

All of those tools except maybe for the parting tool is geared towards miniature turnings. You would be better off buying your tools separately. A 3/8 or 1/2 inch gouge. A 1/2 or 3/4 skew , and a 1/2 or 3/4 round nose scraper would be better than what you have now. Bring it back.

 

[mbellek]

I do need small tools for tiny details. Or do you think that is TOO small? It's not so much the size I'm worried about... I'm worried that if they're so inexpensive its because they are cheap.

By the way, I don't really turn pens. I make hair sticks (you can see pics in my signature). I came to this forum because I was told by several people to take a pen turning class to learn similar things I'd need to know.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Unless you really want minis, take them back. Even large tools have points. I rarely use the minis I originally purchased thinking I needed them for duck calls. A 1" skew does 90% of my turning work.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

First - what do you expect for 20 bucks?

Secondly - I would have bought them at that price, to have around, JIC

 

[mbellek]

Ron in Drums: That is my point. I told the salesman in several different ways that I was not interested in cheap-o tools, that I wanted decent ones and was willing to pay for them, and he was insistent that these were okay!! So, I guess, for 20 bucks, I expected not to be lied to!! But I'm not sure that's what I got... The thing is, I'm new at this, and I so far, everything I have used has been on loan from my father in law. Today was the first time that *I* personally have bought any sort of tool for myself in my life. (I have tools that were given to me, tools that belong to my husband, etc)

Rifleman: Now that you mention it, I can do most of my work with a 1" skew too... But not all of it. There are times when I really wish I had a smaller one. But a smaller SKEW is all I really ever stop and think "geez, I wish I had a smaller version of this tool" about.

I think, that since they *were* only $20... and that's not really a lot of money to me, I will keep these just to try out. I'll think of it almost like a rental, you know? If they turn out to be awesome tools, then so much the better. If not--and I'm thinking "not"--then I will have gotten to try them at a relatively low cost, I'll know what I found useful and what I didn't find useful, and then I can go buy those tools individually.

Sounds like a combination of each opinion I got, huh?

Thanks guys for helping me think this through!!

 

[Fred]

Take the mini set back now before you get hurt. Pick up a Sorbey 1" Skew and go to a display lathe and practice moving around the lathe as though you are turning. I bet you will see, feel, and understand that there is a vast difference in the size of the tools. And by all means deal with a senior turner if you want to learn other things while in the store. []

I hate salespeople that are so far out of their league and when they get pushy and talk like they have done it all.

 

[ahoiberg]

yeah, for $20, just keep them. you never know when you might use one. i know you said you value the tool over price, but for a beginner, you MIGHT consider the 8 piece set from harbor freight. the tools aren't that bad, it's all i ever really use. i have a sorby roughing gouge that i choose over the HF, but for all my detail work, it's the HF tools. and the real beauty of this set is that you can, no pun intended, hone in on your sharpening skills before putting a nasty edge on a much more expensive one. the other real beauty, $40 for the set. just something to consider, i know some here don't really care for them, but they've treated me very well so far. if you don't have a harbor freight locally, you can order them online although their shipping isn't the speediest of all time.

good luck!

and i don't know what that salesman was talking about every 15 min... that doesn't even pass the laugh test. i agree with you and usually only sharpen every couple of sessions. of course, you'll get a ton of differing opinions on how often and how you should sharpen.

 

[jtate]

The long handles of full-sized tools are important. The give you a lot more control than you have with the minis - even on little tiny pieces of work the long handles are - shall I say it - handy.

 

[leehljp]

The choice for keeping them is up to you. JIC, what ever, or buy a good one, one at a time.

My point of interest is in the sharpening. I do the "every 15 minute" deal. I can tell when an edge is being lost. While turning a pen, I stop 2 or 3 times on some difficult woods and hone it on a set of 800 - 2000 sandpaper. I recently got a set of amboyna burls that was very brittle and blew two out because I didn't keep the edge super sharp. It acted like palm.

If you are used to going a whole project without sharpening, I would recommend that you get the tools that will hold an edge the best, - a quality set. Even then, I would move my expectations of sharpening to more frequently.

 

[EeyorIs21]

My first set of tools was purchased at Woodcraft. It was a Pinnacle, set of 3 tools. I got 3/8" bowl gouge, 1/2" oval skew, 1/8" scraper. The handles are about 12" long, maybe little less. I think I paid $25 on sale from $30. They only had it in the store, not on website. I think they now offer similar set in 5 piece also at my local Woodcraft. Checked the website and they are only offering the larger tools online in an 8 piece set.

I have been very happy with my starter set. I have some larger Sorby tools now but still like to go back these Pinnacle from time to time.

I think the $20 set is just too small. Would be good for detail work I think, but I prefer a 3/4" or 1" gouge to rough my stock before I get into any details. Just the way I have done it[]

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

FWIW - I have somewhere between 50-70 turning tools, maybe more, who counts anymore.
Some are great, others I used only once and now collect dust. The one thing that can I say about all these tools is price is not a factor in gaugeing the quality of how these tools work.

For instance: I like my Harbor Freight 1/2" skew (6 tool set for $30) better than my Sorby 1/2" skew (one tool for $40). Go Figure?

 

[loglugger]

I bought a cheep set of 10 carving tool just to be able to grind into a one use tool that you use once in awhile. hope this makes sence to you.
Bob

 

[stevers]

First thing I did was to buy a $70 set of Crown pen turning tools. Four pieces. Really nice HSS. Once I got my full size set, I basically never touch the pen turning set. Biggest waist of $70 I can remember.

 

[rherrell]

Take a look at my signature. I think that says it all!

 

[Rifleman1776]

I should have added: my set of minis is Marples brand, supposedly a quality product. But, when I use them, they bend. This steel (I use the word 'steel' loosley) is very soft. That, couple with the small cross section of tiny tools makes them practically useless. Minis might have an application for some people but not for me.

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by rherrell
<br />Take a look at my signature. I think that says it all!
"The pain of using a cheap tool lingers long after the joy of saving money has passed"

Great quote! I fully agree. I am not tool snob and I don't deliberately seek the highest priced tools, but I do seek out the ones that give great accuracy, durability, and make using them enjoyable!

 

[IPD_Mrs]

I picked up that silly set in January. My thought was towards some detail work on pens. Out of the box if you chuck up a stick of butter you might be able to do something with it. Wilton is known for their clamps not turning tools. With that said, I have done some grinding and sharpening on them so that I have some nice custom tools for some very minor detail work and still in softer woods as the steel is not very hard. But for $20 no big deal.

I see nothing wrong with buying cheaper turning tools to see if you are going to like the size shape or whatever, then put the bucks into a higher end tool made from quality steel so that it holds a good edge.

Mike

 

[Texatdurango]

Originally posted by mbellek
<br />... I told the salesman in several different ways that I was not interested in cheap-o tools, that I wanted decent ones and was willing to pay for them, and he was insistent that these were okay!!

...I think, that since they *were* only $20... and that's not really a lot of money to me, I will keep these just to try out.

I guess I'm a bit confused after reading a few of your posts.

You seem to still be in turmoil over the purchase so I would suggest taking the tools back and getting the best quality tools available, either in a set or individually. That way, you can fulfill your original desire... "I wanted decent ones and was willing to pay for them".

Just FYI, after buying my mini lathe, the first thing I bought was a set of Sorby mini tools. They are quality tools but after a few weeks I stopped using them and for several months now, I use only two tools when making pens... an 1 1'2" roughing gouge and a 1" skew.

George

 

[Randy_]

My first lathe(which I bought used) came with some of those mini tools. I used them a few times and now they just gather dust in a box somewhere.. Full sized tools work just fine for me

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776
<br />Unless you really want minis, take them back. Even large tools have points. I rarely use the minis I originally purchased thinking I needed them for duck calls. A 1" skew does 90% of my turning work.

I'll do ya one better there, I use the huge skew that comes with the HF high-speed steel, I think it an inch and 1/4...... works like a charm.



I have a Crown mini-set that, had it not come with the lathe used when I bought it, I would not have bought it. However, I must say that I really do like the tiny parting tool and 1/4" "gouge" (not really a bowl or spindle gouge, somewhere in between). I have found the 1/4" gouge to be the trick for turning bias-cut and cross-cut blanks without blowout. I rarely use the little teeeeny gouge (1/8"?) and teeeeeny skew that comes in it. They make good tool rack fillers.

 

[redfishsc]

By the way, to tell if they are cheap tools (ie, if they are regular carbon steel ("hcs") or the better high-speed steel ("hss") try the following experiment.


Take the skew and sharpen it a tad. Watch the sparks. If the sparks from the grinder just shoot of as little teeeny single sparks, it is HSS. If the sparks fly off and split and crackle a tad, kinda like a sparkler, it is HCS.


HCS is rather inferior to HSS in "edge-holding ability". However, the one advantage to HCS is, since it is a tad softer, it will actually sharpen to a razor-sharp edge MUCH easier than HSS. This is why hand chisels are HCS and not HSS. I have a handfull of HCS tools that I will occasionaly hone with a diamond stone and a red-rouge buffing wheel if I need to make that one or two super-critical cuts. But rarely is this needed, and the edge doesn't last all that long.

 

[mbellek]

Well, I still think my original plan is probably going to work best for me at this point. I already have a set of larger-handled tools, a 1" skew, and (I believe it's a) 1.5" skew, similar sized roughing gouges, etc.

I don't know if I mentioned this already, but I don't actually turn pens. I turn hair sticks (like for holding a bun in place) and whenever I would ask a woodturner for advice, they would say "you might want to take a pen turning class"--so that's what brought me here.

The work I do (you can see some in my signature) does have (or rather, I'd like it to have) some pretty small detail, so I think some miniature tools would be of use to me from time to time. Especially a smaller skew...

Woodcraft is over an hour away from me, so for the time, gas and effort it would take to return them, I might as well keep them, try the different tools out, and then if I decide that one or two or all of them is extremely useful to me, I can buy a higher-quality version of that tool individually, either in another trip to Woodcraft, or online or where ever.

I think at first I was just not sure what to do... Probably a little of that female-emotion junk coming into play, feeling a little duped, a little stupid, etc. All better now.
[]

 

[jedgerton]

This is one of those debates that will go on and on forever. What has always worked for me is to let the work tell me what I need. I do very little mechanics type work so my ratchet and sockets sets are just so so quality. When I started turning pens, I bought a very cheap set for $10 from HF and found that they need sharpening way too often for me. I then purchased the $32 set from HF and I'm very happy with them. The $10 set would be called by some as wasted money but I just see them in the progression to find the minimum that I need.

I know others that only want the best tool because that makes them happy (for a variety of reasons). Why they want the best tool isn't whats important, its just that nice tools is what they want.

If you like a bargain like I do, start at the low end and work up to meet your needs. If the best of the best is what appeals to you, starting at the high end of your budget would be the right answer.

One size rarely fits all.

John

 

[mbellek]

jedgerton:

That is basically what I have done. I am using the cheap-o tools right now, and finding that I really only use the skew, parting tool and spindle gouge.... So I think I will buy a nicer version of each of these tools in a while.

 

[woodbutcher]

Typically an inexpensive tool has a larger markup percentage wise than the more expensive tool. There is no magic pill for quality. Salesmen know you will be back later for something better.I would suggest joining a turning club in your area or finding a seasoned turner to help.

 

[BigJIm]

Hi there. Sorry that you bought that tool set at Woodcraft, and were unhappy with it. Take it back to them, save the receipt, and you have 90 days to return them. I started turning pens 2 years ago with big tools, they worked well. I purchased a 3 piece set from Woodcraft, specific to pen turning, they work very well. I now own a 6 tool set from Sorby, and my God, are they good. I use them all of the time turning almost everything with them. I think you should know that I work at Woodcraft here in Toledo (new store) and teach pen turning with the 3 piece set, and have had again, excellent results from my students. See ya, Jim.

 

[tnilmerl]

Here's my 2 cents. YMMV. I bought the Wilton set just to get the small parting tool. That was worth it to me. I used the small gouge for some detail work to see how the tool felt and cut. Haven't used the other tools. I have several Crown and Sorby tools that are great, but I use my cheap0 gouge from Harbor Freight the most. The rest of the HF set sits unused in a drawer. The steel on this tool was pretty sorry when I bought it but over the years have have cleaned it up and refined it. It has a mirror polish, razor-edge now and I cut everything with it, from mesquite to plastics. I am happy with it.

Now, I agree with several other people's comments. You have having a lot of angst about the Wiltons. Take them back and buy something you will be happy to own and use in your turning. While the Wiltons are not the "best", they are also not the "worst". If you aren't happy with the tools now, then I doubt you grow to love them in the future. Go get something else. Woodcraft doesn't carry a huge array of manufacturer's tools, so you may have to go online to some other vendor's sites to get something else. The 3 primary brands that Woodcraft carries is Pinnacle (low end) up Sorby and Crown at the high end. Pinnacles are roughly half the price of the Crowns/Sorby tools and are decent tools for the money. Most of the Pinnacles have the long/large handles. I prefer a medium handle, which is missing from the Pinnacle suite and is better suited for smaller turnings.

Oh, and I looked at your turnings. Very nice. Welcome to our stomping grounds....

 

[Scott]

Hi Mel!

Nice hair sticks! You have quite a talent there! I especially like the experimentation you have done using twists.

Tools are not bad things to have. You will probably use some of these cheap tools, and be glad to have them. I suspect they are not high speed steel, which only means you have to sharpen more often. If nothing else, you will be able to determine if a smaller tool is suited to your needs, and then you can buy a better one.

Many of us start out buying sets of tools, before we really know what tools we want to use. This isn't bad, but there are lots of unused tools from sets laying around out there! [:I] Use this as a chance to learn how each of those tools can benefit you. Experiment, try new things. Have fun!

I do have one tool you didn't mention, so I will recommend it to you. It is a 1/8" round nosed scraper made by Ashley Iles. It is one of the neatest small detail tools I have had the pleasure to use! You can find them at:

http://toolsforworkingwood.com/

And one last thing - I'm not sure taking a pen-turning class would really help you. Most of these classes concentrate on making a pen, and do not really encourage adding a lot of detailed shapes to the pens. You might find it boring. But that is not to say that you would find pen turning boring! I think you would enjoy applying your ability to add intricate designs to classic pens. And if you want to make back some of your investment in turning equipment, I can tell you that more people use pens than hair sticks! Selling our pens is what keeps many of us from going bankrupt, or nuts! []

Good luck, and have fun!

Scott.

 

[mbellek]

I have been using these tools for a while now, actually. I had to re-grind the skew entirely, because it had big nicks in the blade--and I mean BIG... But I had never sharpened my own tools before, and that opened the door for me to teach myself how to do that, which was nice to finally know how to do.

The parting tool and skew are fine, and I do get some use from them, like if I am making a less-than-1/2" sized ball shape or other round shape and I can't get my 1/2skew in there, the 1/4" usually will work to take that last little edge out.

I still may buy a better version of the skew and parting tool in the future, I haven't decided yet.

Either way, I think this was probably the most viable way for me to try them anyway.

I think people kept telling me to take a pen turning class because pens are the most popular "smaller" project out there... (Or maybe just to get me off their back! One of the people who told me that was a seller on ebay who made it pretty clear she did not want any competition so I better not ask her any more questions!! Ouch!!)

I've been thinking about pens though, maybe trying one or two. I never realized how impressive they could be until I came here!!

 

[KenV]

Melanie --

You may find success with a 1/4 inch skew made from 1/4 inch round high speed steel rod. Robert Rosand wrote this up in an earlier issue of American Woodturner and sells them for $20 each. Easy to try by turning a 1/4 inch drill bit around and grinding a bevel on both sides of the portion which normally fits into the chuck at about a 60-70 degree angle. Mr. Rosand (rrosand.com) is a talented turner of small items well known in the demonstration world. I saw him work at the Desert Roundout last Feb.

This is a handy tool that should work for some of your hair stick details.