Strait Dope on Nibs...

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rwbirt02

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Hello to all,

I am new to penturning and am still in the process of researching all information pertaining to turning pens. I am interested in specializing with fountain pens, and want to target a higher end market...I understand that I will of course need to cater to a lower end market as well to make enough money to justify the time I will be spending with this new craft, but at the time have an immediate demand for a pen that is sellable to a corperate market that has some money to spend of their beautifully hand crafted pens.

So in this regard...I am trying to find out the strait dope on nibs. I have been searching through previous posts to try to gain a better understanding of the different sizes, materials, makers, and varying quality from one nib to another...but am still mystified as to what is the best material that a nib is made out of in a "pen kit". I am going to be selling pens in the $150-$500 range off the bat and want to know what is the best nib that is avaliable to me for my pens.

Any previous posts, links, or other pertinent information is greatly appreciated.
 
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Johnathan

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Before things get too carried away make sure you know enough to offer the best product you can. Also, if you can sell a pen make sure you know how to fix a pen. Problems happen and people will trust that you can make their pens as good as new. I would take some time practicing for a bit. Good luck![8D]
 

mrcook4570

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Originally posted by rwbirt02
...but am still mystified as to what is the best material that a nib is made out of in a "pen kit". I am going to be selling pens in the $150-$500 range off the bat and want to know what is the best nib that is avaliable to me for my pens.

All of the nibs in pen kits are steel, with the exception of the limited edition statesman and limited edition emperor. Those, I believe are 18k. If you want an upgrade from the basic steel nib, email Anthony (Penworks) for info about 14k nibs for the baron/jr gent/jr statesman and the gent/statesman/emperor.

As for $500 off the bat, good luck...and you may want to practice on a few first and learn how to get a finish worthy of that price tag.
 

rwbirt02

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Not many people have responded thus far...I hope I haven't come off as being arrogant when stating the prices I intend to charge for pens at the outset of my venture. I am confident that I can produce a pen worthy of these prices at the outset because of past experience working with a wide variety of finishing products and materials(both wood and metal). I repair band instruments by defult, and work with all types of abbrassives on a daily basis...MicroMesh being one that I call on daily. Once again at the risk of sounding arrogant...In my mind thus far, building the best pen possible is 99% what is seen in the minds eye-then the rest will fall into place using the best possible materials and techniques. Nothing can replace a keen eye for quality, the rest as they say is childs play? I will however temper the above statement by acknowledging that practice is always a crucial element in achieving the best possible results.

Questions still abound as to what is the best nib material though. When I look at a Montgrappa, Sailor, Namiki or any other high end pen, and it has an 14kt or 18kt gold nib with platinum mask...Is the nib made from 14kt gold throughout and plated with platinum or is the nib made with a steel base metal plated with 14kt and platinum mask? And are there nibs avaliable to us from our vendors that are of the same quality as those produced and sold in such pens on the market?

Thanks for all replies.
 

gerryr

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You really need to address these questions to Anthony, he's the resident expert on fountain pens. There is a book that you should probably have, which will give you a wealth of information about the topic, Anthony knows the title.

As far as coming across as arrogant, yup, you did.
 

GregMuller

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If possible please post a picture of your first $500 dollar sale. I would be interested in seeing it. So far the highest price gotten for a pen I know of was from BTBoone which was somewere in the $1000 range and was magnificant. I will be interested in seeing what sells in the range you are looking for. Good Luck.
 

ldimick

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There was a thread here a few months back and I think it was one that Lou (DCBluesman) started. The premise was that it is very dificult to make a high end pen ($250+) when we are using kits. While the kits make nice pens it may be dificult to really get to the level you are referring to. Now, when you start to talk about the differences in nibs you sound like you are on the right track - moving beyond the kit world.

IMHO, the nibs are not bad on the kits but they are no where near as good as on commercial pens. I suspect that we are lacking some sort of finishing process. I have a Namiki Vanishing Point that I was really disappointed in after reading about how great the nib was. I even told Anthony that it was no better than my Emperor nib. But after a couple more weeks I began to notice a drastic improvement in the smoothness. I think it was a combination in me learning it's nuances and it wearing to my hand. I have not had a kit nib go through that same transformation.

I don't beleive that Bruce uses any kit parts in his pens. He may use a nib holder.

Having said all of this I have to back up Gerry's post and suggest that you search for threads that have included input from Anthony, Lou and Old Griz. Griz is becoming (or I'm just noticing) a real FP afficionado.

Also check out Stylophile for some examples.

If you plan to stay in the kit world, and you beleive that you can get $150 to $500 per pen, why would you waste your time turning and selling lower end pens? They take almost as much time and the return is not as great.

Good luck and keep us posted!
 

chigdon

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I personally think we can sell in that price range with the higher end kit pens. The reality is that only a very small percentage of the people out there know about what we are doing and how many people are doing it. It is extremely rare for me to show my pens to anyone and for them to have ever seen anything like them before. I think the problem is we don't think they are worth as much so we don't sell them for enough.

I am all for rwbirt02 selling them for as much as possible. Just get your finish worked out, concentrate on the best kits and nibs, etc., work on creating a brand and aim high on the prices. It is only doing us all a favor when you start selling them for high prices.
 

gerryr

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Mark and Brian Gisi sell pens in that price range. Check out their website at
http://www.gisiwriting.com/page/page/2409340.htm
 

coloneluw

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I would be interested in seeing that pen also. so far i've managed to "sell" 1 pen to a coworker for ten bucks. And I think i can make a pretty good pen. As for your interest in fountain pens, I was the same way when I first started this hobby. I thought, wow, what a great way to make a lot of money....especially with fountain pens. Then i started looking into "real" fountain pens(what i distinguish between a craft pen and a professionally manufactured pen) and discovered that on the surface our craft/kit pens look like a 'real' fountain pen but fall far from it. What distiguishes ours is the one of a kindness/materials used. I beleive the "straight dope" on most professionally manufactured fountain pens is that they pay a lot of money to professional jewelers to custom design their nibs (then have them manufactured by a firm, such as Bock out of Germany i believe) and don't rely on a standard, stock nib (precious metal or not). If you look closely at many(if not all!) of the high end nibs, they almost always have there name and ornate scrolling on them. An excellent example would be the one known to us all, Mont Blanc. Go to their site and take a good look at their newest. Miesterstuck Solitaire 1906. Very nice, but i am willing to bet they aren't willing to sell you their nibs so you can put them on your own pen. Much less any other manufacturer. Aside from getting your hands on a high end nib, that doesn't look generic and downgrade your pen value, have you looked closely at how high end fountain pens are made? I would concentrate on how you are going to make those threaded caps and bodies before i worried about the nibs. I have not seen very many no this site other than BTBoones, which are spectacular, but my guess is that he's been at this awhile and has quite a bit invested too. You might want to check out www.pentrace.net before you insult too many people.
 

PenWorks

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Mr. RW, good luck with your new venture [:)] I offer replacement 14K nibs for Gents,Statesmen,Emperors, Jr's/Barons. You can find my add for them in the business classified here on the secound page.
They are manufactured by the same company that makes 80% of the gold nibs out there.
They are solid 14K and some have a rhodium mask for a two tone effect.
Having said this, putting a $60.00 gold nib on a pen only increases the price of the pen 60-120. The pen needs to be worthy of the nib.

As to which nib is the best, that depends on who is critiquing your nib. There will allways be that same ol debate over 18K or 14K, firm or flex. Everybody's taistes are different. I happen to like the 14K nibs, but I have no problem using Lamy steel nibs or some of the ones that come with our kit pens after a little smoothing out.

I happen to sell allot of fountain pens, for a couple of reason, It takes me just as long to make a roller as it does a fountain pen, but I can sell a fountain pen for more. You tend to sell what you use and feel comfortable with.

As to replies to your post, sometimes things are a little quite on the board over the weekend. I am sure it is nothing personal [8D]
 

woodpens

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It is certainly possible to make fountain pens in this price range. However, you've got to have the right audience to sell many of them. Unless you have some serious connections already, you might be better off scaling back slightly to the $75 - $125 range. Like Anthony mentioned, you can add roughly $75 for a nib that costs you $60. May I ask how/where you plan on selling your pens? I have sold several pens in the $300 range, but if I didn't sell pens in the $50 - $100 range, my total sales wouldn't be 1/4 what it is currently.
 

coloneluw

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Ok, upon review of my comments...i truly want to retract my sarcasm. It would not be my place to wish ill will on anyone. if you don't ask that price you will never get that price...so why not! coming from an art background, sometimes underpricing yourself is a bad thing. here is a great website i found from a guy who toured the Bock factory. it's very informative.
http://www.thesouthernscribe.com/PenArticles/Nibs.htm
 

PenWorks

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I have never sold a fountain pen over a $150.00 with a steel nib. I think once you get over that price point, gold is the expected nib material.
 

rwbirt02

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Well it's a new day, and I was hoping to clarify some of the comments that sparked a fire. I'd like to make it very clear that I have absolutely no intention of insulting or stepping on toes of people that have devoted their own personal time to this timeless craft. I'm only attempting to gather the information that is required to aquire the absolute best materials for the pens I will be selling. If I can put a nib in my pen that is equivelent to what is in a high pen on the market, educate my clientel, and SELL them the pen...that is to say hold firm on what I believe my time to be worth...I then can provide the best possible product to the buyer.

I have spent countless hours studying, absorbing, and yes even lusting after pens that are made by the majors. Montgrappa, Omas, Cartier are only a few of my favorites. But I know that I can make a pen that is equal in quality, if not superior in quality provding I have done my research and backed it up with an absolutely discrimating eye for quality.

At the risk of going on off the philosophical deep end here...To me crafting a high end on-off pen for a collegue is about more than just the materials anyway. It's about taking time with the client to go over materials, and going over pens that are made by the other majors. After consulting my clientel and deciding exactly what they want in a pen...I can then look to the majors for ideas, and inspiration. In the end, after I have invested this kind of time and attention to exactly what turns on my clientel (as far as pens are concerned of course)-I have made a personal conncetion with that individual. After having made that connection, and can back it up with the absolute best pen; I can charge whatever that client is willing to pay for this once in a lifetime experience...how many other majors can I send someone to and tell them that they are able to get a completely one-off custom pen? There may be some out there that will make pens in this way for their clientel, but I think a nose bleed would ensue after finding out what they had to pay that company to produce the pen of their dreams.

I hope the rookie hasn't pissed off any of the others in the group...it truly is not my intention. I would like to ask though-why haven't people sold their pens for more? What kind of value can we put on our work? What is morally right...my answer would be whatever the client is willing to pay as long as we are supplying them with the absolute best quality work and materials avaliable to us as penturners. Much of this will also be detrmined by our markets as well. If I have a booth in an everyday craft show...there's no way I would expect to command these higher prices...there's also no way that I would be making the pens with solid sterling silver components and 14 or 18kt nibs. That's not say that I wouldn't have some examples of such work at said booth...

When we are selling pens to people, as with any other thing that is sold...it is about service. We are selling ourselves with our pens...not just the pens by themselves. If people were only interested in buying a pen...we wouldn't be able to sell any of our work...they would all be buying Bics. When we take the time to get ideas from clientel and make a pen that is exactly what they see as being their dream pen...we have made a personal connection with them...that is why they are buying our pens. They are interested in having someone listen to them, and make thier vision come true. That is what my passion and intent is. If they are willing to pay for that experience...I'm not going to stop them; especially if it allows me to provide for my family. We all "sell" oursleves every day...
 
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rwbirt02,
First, how about posting your first name on your posts. We are a rather friendly bunch and welcome new members.

Second, thank you for what you have posted here. We all tend to stagnate from time to time and a good rousing discussion about pen pricing helps all who read it.

One thing I have found and I think you may find is when a pen kit fountain pen gets into the hands of someone who knows and uses fountain pens one detail is immediately noticed. ---Balance!

The pens most of us make here are full of metal. Commerical manufacturers don't have to do that in most of their pen designs. They can work with light weight materials (check out Boone's Titanium pens). A person who is going to fork out $500 for a pen is a pen nut. They will likely have had hundreds of pens in their hands over time, not all but most. As soon as they pick up one of our pens they notice the weight immediatly. Then they try and write with it. At that point they notice the balance. They will try it with the cap posted (if it is that style of pen) and with the cap not posted. Usually they will comment on how "out of ballance" the pen is. With a Barron design, say, with the cap posted, you are making an effort to keep the nib on the paper. You may not notice that so much but a veteran fountain pen user will. A very high quality fountain pen lays on the paper of it's own weight and balance, you don't have to make it lay there.

Try a little test for yourself, or anyone reading this. Take a Barron fountain pen, post the cap, lay it across a finger and find out where the ballance point of the pen is. Compare that point to where you hold the pen when you are writing. Take your Barron to an office supply store, the big chains sell high end pens. Pick up a name brand pen that sells for $100 or so and compare the weight of it to your Barron.

Then you get to the nibs. The main thrust and topic you started out with was nibs. With the pen kits you get plated steel nibs, to start with we only got what was called a medium nib with a kit. When we first had access to fine, medium and broad nibs we were very excited about it. However I have found what is being sold as a fine nib that fits our pen kits actually makes a line closer to a medium nib. To get a true fine line the available fine nib has to be altered. It can be done but it adds more time to your making of a pen, and time is money. That time, hence money, can't be added to the price of the pen. You are simply spending the time to make the pen what you claim it is, or you don't mess with the nib at all, call it a fine point, and the knowlegeable pen buyer will keep moving along and keep his money in his pocket.

The nib issues then lead you to the pen feed section. Most of the pen feed sections that come with our kit pens does not work properly. To make that $500 pen you will have to solve that. I alter each pen feed section so it will perform properly. Add another 30-45 min. per pen to the cost of making it. Again that time can't be passed along in the price, the pen is supposed to work properly and that is just what is needed to call it a fountain pen. When I sell a fountain pen that I have made to someone I have spent about 2 more hours on it, just working over the nib and feed section, putting ink in the pen and testing it to make sure that it will work properly. All that time is lost to me but the buyer won't be back in my face with a pen that skips when it writes, or runs dry when in use or that makes a broad line when I told them it was a fine point nib.

You can go to the 14k gold nibs that are offered by Anthony. As he said, they cost you $60 and as others have said you can add ca. $75 or more to the price of the pen. That gets a higher quality nib on your pen. It doesn't fix the feed section problems. But that is as far as most pen makers can go. The next step would be to send the finished pen to one of the pen nib Guru's and have them fit a custom nib that has been tweaked to fit your pen and made to function properly. That would cost you an addtional $100 or so over the price of the nib. So, let's say you do that. You spend say $150 to get a good quality nib and to have it function properly. You sell that $500 pen to someone. That someone keeps it for a day, comes back, and says, "This thing just doesn't suit my style of writing." Whacha gonna do?
 

Old Griz

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Actually, I do find myself a bit put off by some of what you have said... I have been making and selling my work for over 3 yrs and have a reputation of being a better than average practioner of our craft. I am by no means the be all and do all of penturners... but I have worked long and hard to get where I am today..

You asked why some have not sold their work for more... to be brutally honest some penturners work is not worth more than they are currently charging... some turners work is worth more than they are charging. The pricing of pens comes with a learning curve. It can be a very steep learning curve. According to your first post, you are new to penturning, but have a lot of experience with finishing materials... that makes what I consider the hardest part of the learning curve a bit easier. But you still have to learn to make a pen that looks good. I have sold pens as high as $350 and as low as $20. Would you care to guess what the average price of pen sales is... More in the range of $75-90 and most of my sales are fountain pens and roller balls.. I do a two month craft booth over Nov-Dec on Saturday mornings and do very well considering my geographic and economic area (Western MD). My work also sells well off my website. The majority of my high priced pens have been from inquiries from my web site. I have 5 customers who purchase at least 1 pen every 3-4 months from me... they are very particular about the materials, shape and platings on the pens... but they are also willing to pay top dollar, because they know I will produce what they want in the quality they demand. Does this mean my other pens do not meet this quality standard... absolutely not... but for these customers I do take that little extra step.

You mention using solid sterling silver fittings and parts for you pens, are you producing them yourself... because to date there is only one kits manufacturer offering solid sterling silver fittings and that is only in two kits, the El Grande Fountain Pen and the Flat Top American Ballpoint pen. So obviously if you do not produce your own hardware, you are going to be limited to only the El Grande FP... not exactly the way to have a diversified product line that can bring in customers.

I am sorry if this ticks you off, but I believe you need to learn to doggy paddle before you swim the English Channel. And I do believe you are being more than a bit presumptuous about starting your pricing in the $150-$500 range off the bat... I am real curious who you intend to market these pens to and how you intend to market them... At least 3-4 pen turners I know advertise in the "BIG" pen magazines... and I am pretty sure they are not getting consistant $500 sales.. in fact I would be surprised if they are getting regular $300 sales.. and these guys are at the top of their craft, not a beginner.

My suggestion... back off and collect all the information you can get from the members here. They are more than willing to help a newbie. Also back off on questioning our motives and pricing strategies until you have spent some time in the market and took the blows the rest of us have. Yes you have studied and lusted over the high price pens... so have the rest of us... I also collect and restore old pens... so I not only know the market, but know that materials these pens are made from... I also have sources for some exotic old materials from Europe and they are used for my $300+ pens... this stuff is extremely limited in supply...

Learn the craft, show us your work, explain what you are doing and you will get a load of help here....

I am sorry if you feel insulted by this message, but I have been around this craft quite a while and IMO have seen quite a bit.
I will now get off my soapbox....
 

rwbirt02

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Not in any way offended-rather I appreciate the time you have given me. Thank you. I see how coming out and saying that I am selling pens @ $500 a pop would sound tart at best...but I would like to state for the record...I am not suffering from illusions of grandour. I realize that a simple majority of the pens I produce will be more likely to sell in the $75-$200 dollar range; but I refuse to settle with that. I will go on to produce pens that command higher prices, and are made of the finest materials that can be found.

It may very well sound as though I am a blow hard; but I beg of you not to misunderstand...I'm simply motivated to make pens that rival the majors; one at a time-for each individual that I am catering to. Hence the reason I have started to devote time and effort into research and devolopment of my newly chosen craft. I'm well aware that there will be set backs, frustrations, and moments of sheer dispair as I walk this path...

The orginal topic of dicussion was NIBS...thank you to all who have given their insight on the matter. I'm not here to brag about my skills, clientel, materials, or pricing. Simply doing the research to back up what I intend to be providing my clientel with. So on that note...my understanding up to this point is that if a nib is said to be 14 or 18kt gold, than it is gold all the way through just like a wedding band is solid 14 or 18kt gold. That nib is then tipped irridium; which isn't actually iridium, but an alloy that is from the platinum family. In addition the nib is often "masked" (plated) with a second precious metal to provide a "two tone" effect. My research up to this point has not provided me with information as to whether this "masking" provides better performance or is simply decorative.

Also I understand that there are one or two "kit" nibs avaliable to me that are solid 14 or 18kt gold; and at an ungraded price...fine-more cost to the client. So this leaves me with an understanding that the rest of the nibs that are in a run of the mill kits are steel of some sort while being tipped with "iridium", and sometimes are plated in 14 or 18kt gold and or masked with a secondary plating of some sort.


Once again questions in regard to NIBS are still emminent. Are there other materials that are used for tipping other than "Iridium"? What are some of the best resorces to be delved into in regard to performance of differnt nibs...websites, books, etc? Also-I have noticed that some high end pens from the majors have "ebonite feeders". Are these feeders something that we can get our hands on, and or do they provide performance that justifies the cost? Is an ebonite feeder any better than plasctic or any other material, and has anyone tried making feeders from alternative materials...brass, copper, alluminum, stainless steel? Is there anyone that can give me the best resource to look into regard this subject of feeders...performance, care, cleaning, etc. Thanks again to all that give their time and expertise.
 

DCBluesman

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I've laid off this topic for as long as I can. rwbirt02, here's the real scoop. You've been a member of this site for 2 months, you've made 7 posts, half of which are in this thread and you have not shown anything that lets the members here know that you are anything but a taker as far as the forum is considered.

You start out by telling us that we don't know how to sell, we don't seek and use the top quality materials, that we don't know maketing, that we don't know how to work with a customer...ad nauseum. In fact, I'm so sick of reading how you are so much smarter than us, that if I were a customer I'd walk out on you. Hopefully you do better communicating in person than you do in type.

Now, you want to know everything that the members of this group have worked long and hard for in order that you can have a short-track to the finish line? I think not. Not until you start sharing. Not until you've earned your stripes. Do you want to know about nibs, feeds, filling systems? Your best solution is to do a Google seach. You can find all of the information that the rest of us have found. There are scores of books. Try searching Amazon.

In closing this little note, I admire your goal, but you are already leaving a lot of glass in your wake. Try a little sharing, try a little courtesy. You may get some help with direction.
 

btboone

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>if a nib is said to be 14 or 18kt gold, than it is gold all the way through just like a wedding band is solid 14 or 18kt gold.

Hey, wait a minute, I thought wedding rings were supposed to be titanium! [:eek:)]

For the feed mechanisms, you could make them out of any of those materials as long as the nib with its associated plastic part screws into it. If you take the gold nib out, you notice in most of those plastic feeds a flat part on one side that channels the ink. There's no way to make that unless it's molded plastic.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment here. Start smaller and grow into the bigger numbers as you learn the market and particulars of what separates good pens from great pens. Fit and finish are indeed a big factor, but in order to separate from the crowd, you also need some higher push in the form of design, function, or some other niche. It's tough to get that much different when everyone uses the same kit parts and has those same goals. I think that Chris is dead on in needing to establish an identity of consistant high end pens. Sell a few for what you can get, and as you get better, you up the price and focus more on what the customer is wanting.
 

bobaltig

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I'd really be fascinated to see some photos of your $500+ pens. I don't think my pens are good enough to sell, and I really don't need the money anyway, so I don't bother with the hassle of getting a resellers license in California, charging sales tax in California, and reporting the additional income on my tax returns to the Feds and the State. I've seen some pretty incredible looking pens that sell for $500+ and would be interested in seeing yours. It might just encourage me to try new things. How about posting a few pictures just to encourage an old piker like me?

Bob A
 

AirportFF

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Man, I've been doing this off and on for about 5 years and still don't know everything. And I don't think I will ever ask $500 for a pen. I'd rather sell 10 $20 pens in a week or so than 1 or 2 $300 pens a year. I can't afford to have a ton of inventory sitting around and like to keep the turnover high. That's why I stick to the "lowly" slimline styles, Euro's etc. I also love rollerballs (Gents, Statesman, Barons)
Personally, I stay away from doing FP since I really don't know that much about them. But should I ever consider getting seriously into them I would research them for myself first. Instead of starting a discussion of "Let me take your ideas and sell them for $500 a clip" approach. It's just my opinion, but I think that you may have stepped on quite a few toes.

Good Luck
Clint
 

rwbirt02

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It seems that I'm already on the bad side of a number of people in this group of fine penturners...never my intention. As for being a taker...eveyone's opinion is valid...thank you. In regard to pictures, I will be glad to post them when I have finished some pens that are worthy of your alls' time. When I have information that is valid, and or pertinent to what is being posted, and or researched by members of this organization; I will gladly share what I know-or don't know for that matter.

The bottom line as I see it, is that we are all trying to make a few extra bucks doing something that we truly enjoy, and take a great deal of pride in. I was never aware that I needed to "earn stripes" in order to gain information that is pertinent to our chosen craft; in fact I was under the impression that the IAP is in place to help people gain this imformation easily...without having to spend countless hours searching on the web that could be spent turning pens. As for being smarter than anyone else in this organization...I highly doubt it. How could someone as new as me, and with so little experience turning pens be smarter than all of the people in here...I think I've been given way too much credit...but that's just my opinion.

Maybe for now it's best that we all let this thread find an end, and turn some pens out instead of beating up on the new guy because he's such a cad "in type". Unless of course there are some other people out there that have some more imformation that can be passed along for all to read and benefit from...regarding nibs of course.
 

PenWorks

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Well in closing RW, I thnk of all the threads posted here, less than 1% probablly discuss nibs. We really are more concerned about pen making using different materials & kits & finishes. Now there's a discussion, what finish do you use ? [:D]

I know none of us are feed makers and no one I know here has an injection mold machine in their shop, ( well maybe Bruce is holding out on us) [:D]

Your nib choices are really fairly simple, you use the steel nibs that come with the kits, or you buy a gold nib from me, or rob a nice decortive gold nib off an expensive pen for your expensive pen and try to make it fit, or have about 10,000 to give Bock to design and make a nib for your pens.( they will be using plactic feeds & houses)

Nibs haven't changed much over the last 75 or so years except gold is now 550 an oz [:D]
 

btboone

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Roswell, GA, USA.
Anthony hit the nail on the head. That's exactly the situation for nibs. The feeds have to be of such high precision that we can't make them, although we can make the barrel section that the feed screws into.

I'm working on that molding machine. [;)]
 

btboone

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Roswell, GA, USA.
I have a major pool project going on now. A molding machine will have to take a back seat. [8D] I did actually look into one of those table top machines at one time.
 

RussFairfield

Passed Away 2011
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Getting the molding machine is the easy part. For something like a fountain pen feed, the finish and precision of the mold is all important, and its cost could easilly exceed that of the machine.

One of the reasons that I like to buy the Bexley nibs for a fountain pen is that the feed is better and more consistent than those on the kit pens, regardless of the nib that is used. The only problem with using them is that the thread is different from that used on the kits. They are not a direct screw-in replacement, and that means being able to turn threads or make a tap for them.
 

RussFairfield

Passed Away 2011
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I'm like Lou, I held off on this one as long as I could.

Making a $500 pen is not an easy thing to do. The first goal is breaking the $100 quality barrier. That means a gold nib; not the same steel nib that comes on the $35 Waterman from Office Depot. If you were to take the best of the pen kits and add a $100 nib to it, it will be a $200 pen, maybe a $250 if the wood and workmanship is perfect, but no more than that.

To get into the $500 price range you will need four things - knowledge, design, quality, and name.

Knowledge takes time. You must be able to talk to an educated customer. People who use fountain pens are snobs. They don't want to buy a fountain pen from somebody whose conversational skills don't go past the Bic. You must be able to talk intelligently about them, know their language, know their science and art, know their nuances, and most of all, know how to write skillfully with a fountain pen.

Let's face a fact. There is still a stigma around a pen that looks like the photo of a $5 kit in a catalog. There are still a lot of crappy looking kit pens being made and sold, and making the same pen with a better finish is still the same pen with a better finish in the eyes of the customer. Having a basic design, or features, that nobody can find in a kit catalog is an important step.

A $500 PEN HAS TO LOOK LIKE A $500 PEN. It must have the fit and finish that goes with the price. It must be flawless. The only way to develop those skills is by making a lot of pens.

The "name" and the association of quality, skill, and all of those things that go with it are worth money, and you will never get into the $500 price without it. The only way to get the "name" is to show your craft in a lot of pen shows in a lot of cities, and advertise in the fountain pen magazines. That takes an investment in time and money.

The folks who have answered (or failed to answer) your questions about nibs have invested a lot of time and money into developing knowledge and skills and collecting the tools that are necessary to make a better pen. Some of them are already selling the $500 pen. Others are into the $250 pen category and lusting for the $500 pen. Others have all of the skills and design innovation to get there, but to stay below the $100 barrier because they have neither the time or money to invest. Still others choose to stay below the $100 barrier because there is money to be made there and they are comfortable with that. The majority approach making pens as as a hobby, and while they might have the skills to make a $500 pen, they prefer not to turn their hobby into a full-time job.

All of them object to a total stranger, who knows nothing about pens, walking up with two chips on each shoulder, telling them that if they tell him everything they know, he will show them how to sell their pens for $500.

"Tact" is defined as having the ability to tell someone to go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip. Your first message was not a tactful one. Learning the skills of communication with other artists and craftsmen might be that most important first step in your quest for the $500 pen.
 

lkorn

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Virginia Beach, VA, USA.
Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />All of them object to a total stranger, who knows nothing about pens, walking up with two chips on each shoulder, telling them that if they tell him everything they know, he will show them how to sell their pens for $500.


Russ, Initially, I chose not to respond to this query for obvious reasons. What amazed me is that most of the members here tried, albeit unsuccessfully, to direct RW in the RIGHT direction, instead of merely telling him where to go. Its too bad that he doesn't listen.
 

PenWorks

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Messages
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Scottsdale, AZ
Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />
People who use fountain pens are snobs.

Thanks for the compliment Russ [:D]


"Tact" is defined as having the ability to tell someone to go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip.

ROTFLMAO [:D]
 

ldimick

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Dec 26, 2004
Messages
407
Location
Westminster, CA, USA.
Originally posted by PenWorks
<br />
Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />
People who use fountain pens are snobs.

Thanks for the compliment Russ [:D]


"Tact" is defined as having the ability to tell someone to go to Hell and make them look forward to the trip.

ROTFLMAO [:D]

I've got the directions - need a ride? [}:)]
 

Thumbs

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Mar 13, 2005
Messages
872
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Muncy, PA, USA.
<b>Snobs?</b> Who'd a thunk it?[:0][:p]

But that aside:

Come on you guys! Didn't we have some clowns plow through this site several times last month stirring up noise and trouble? Does the word gullible mean anything to you? When some yahoo from another site stirs up something nonsensical for their amusement we continually fall for it. [:(] The original post here was patent nonsense and needed no response and got little. But most fisherman know you have to present the bait with a little extra sometimes to get that first bite. So get your pal to "chum" the waters.... Sometimes it causes a feeding frenzy, huh? Maybe that's why the term "trolling" comes up in regard to this on occasion!

I'm sure some with whom we have been acquainted here are sitting on the floor laughing their <b>AO</b>, too, every time we fall for this <b>BS</b>!

The particular problem is that we do have to resign ourselves to the fact that if we want to help the newbies and each other, we are going to be easy prey to the sickos who wish to take advantage of others. It would be worse to become as cynical and as sick as those who think it is great sport to embarrass and harass people only trying to help someone. [V] Whether they think we have a worthy contribution or not, we have to remember why we joined this group. I think most of us joined to share and partake of the knowledge available here. Even if we had little or nothing to contribute or still have little or nothing to contribute, we have shared as best we can and still should continue to do so regardless of the trolls and clowns among us......[:eek:)][;)]
 

gerryr

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Sep 22, 2005
Messages
5,353
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Billings, MT, USA.
Bob, I wondered about that last night, but then I thought who would go to the trouble of posting some inoccuous question about needing a mandrel to fit a #3 MT on a Enco 7x10 lathe. I just visited the Enco site and according to the information there, the Enco 7x10 uses a #2 MT. So, you might be right.[:0]
 

Thumbs

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Mar 13, 2005
Messages
872
Location
Muncy, PA, USA.
Ummm..... I don't know about the Enco, Gerry; but my Cummins 7x12 uses an MT#3 spindle taper and an MT#2 tailstock taper. According to the Little Machine Shop mini-lathe comparison guide, most of the other 7x10 thru 7x12 and 14 mini-lathes do also. But they don't list an Enco model so I don't know about that one. Is it a metal lathe, too, or a mini- wood lathe?[?]
 

rwbirt02

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Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
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Location
.
Nope I'm the same person. I looked at the owners manual for my lathe and it says I have a #3 morse taper in my headstock...probably an onversight on my part...newbies. I've always wanted to be a fisherman...I guess I finally achieved my lifes goal...who would have guessed? Funny thing is I got more help on my very first thread in the IAP...it was very much appreciated. Now I've become a fisherman...wow; cool.

Alright so if the IAP just needed a stir then that's cool with me. It's become quite apparent that no matter what attempts I make to rectify any semblence of arrogance, lack of tact, and or just plain discourtesy that I have seemingly displayed in my posts...I'm screwed; I can't win. So if this is whats it like to be a fisherman...I quit. Does anyone want to talk about pens...? Sincerely, that is what I'm here for...I'd like to make the best pens that I can...with you all. If you all want me around, I'd be honored to learn from anyone thats interested in teaching a stupid, arrogant, crass, SOB-of-a-fisherman. If not...se la vie.

Never, never, never has it ever been my intention to cross or step on a single toe in this organization...it wouldn't be much fun for me to step on the toes of people I've never even met...the rush just wouldn't be the same.Javascript:insertsmilie('[:D]') Let alone the fact that toes are dangerous to step on...they might be attached to the ass you have to kiss on a different occasion. I might be kind of slow with my communication skills, and obviously don't know anything about my lathe because I had to read my owners manual to find out what size taper it has in the headstock...I might be dumb; but I'm not that dumb enough to intentionally steps on the toes of people I've never had the pleasure of meeting in person. So if I've somehow done this inadvertently in my posts; please forgive me. Now can we all just get along and make some great pens? Javascript:insertsmilie('[:eek:)]') I'd really like to learn and turn with the best people I can. Best regards, and thank you to all who have posted in attempt to break in the newbie. Javascript:insertsmilie('[:)]')

Eagle must have been a character!

P.S. I go by the mane of Ed in response to the earlier post about first names.
 
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