Still OOR

Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
After having too many problems with pens ending up out of round, I just switched to TBC and what happens? My first TBC pen is more out of round than any other. This is absolutely maddening. I have a lot of trouble drilling my blanks exactly on center on my drill press, and haven't yet spent the money on the chucks to drill on the lathe. Would slightly off-center drilling cause such OOR issues? I'm also wondering if the problem is with my lathe. I notice that the points of the centers don't line up exactly when I slide the tail stock (picture below shows how the points misalign) toward the headstock. I have a PSI Turncrafter. Are all lathes like this?
 

Attachments

  • 20140616_104204.jpg
    20140616_104204.jpg
    158 KB · Views: 306
Signed-In Members Don't See This Ad

jcm71

Member
Joined
May 5, 2011
Messages
1,660
Location
Chattanooga, TN
No, all lathes are not like this. Your points should be dead on. As said above, barring any other issues, this is your problem. If your lathe is still in warranty, get on the phone with PSI ASAP.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
Remove the centers, use compressed air, vacuum, and a brush to clean out the center cavities. Replace your centers firmly, slide them toward each other, and lock the tail stock. They should "mate" perfectly - point to point. If not call PSI and get a replacement.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
I just finishes speaking to Leslie. One of the problems is that tail stock locks in at least two different positions unless she forces it toward her. She shouldn't have to do that.
 

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
Well, I just got off the phone with Joe Roberts, a PSI tech person. He told me that wood lathes are not made to be like machine lathes and the tail stock always has a little movement to it. He said I need to practice moving the tail stock back and forth until I get used to how to hold the neck of the tailstock so that the tips of the centers always align. In my case, this means I need to slightly pull the tailstock toward me while moving it toward the headstock.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
He's probably the owner's son LOL. I would contest the credit card charge and return the lathe if they don't plan on replacing it with a new one. Not saying what you should do; I am saying what I would do.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
I just spoke to Barry Gross (what a good guy and gentleman). He had some advice that I will share with Leslie.
 

plano_harry

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
1,959
Location
Plano, TX 75093
Well, I just got off the phone with Joe Roberts, a PSI tech person. He told me that wood lathes are not made to be like machine lathes and the tail stock always has a little movement to it. He said I need to practice moving the tail stock back and forth until I get used to how to hold the neck of the tailstock so that the tips of the centers always align. In my case, this means I need to slightly pull the tailstock toward me while moving it toward the headstock.

Leslie, if that works, it is certainly the easiest solution. Don't know about your return options. Tailstocks often have a pit of play in them, but if you can consistently get it to lock down in alignment by holding forward, you can overcome the problem without messing with the headstock bolts. What you are looking for is the ability to sandwich a thin piece of metal (like a razor blade) vertically between the centers without it deflecting to one side or the other -- thus indicating perfect alignment.
 

panamag8or

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
577
Location
Hogtown, Florida (Gainesville)
Well, I just got off the phone with Joe Roberts, a PSI tech person. He told me that wood lathes are not made to be like machine lathes and the tail stock always has a little movement to it. He said I need to practice moving the tail stock back and forth until I get used to how to hold the neck of the tailstock so that the tips of the centers always align. In my case, this means I need to slightly pull the tailstock toward me while moving it toward the headstock.

Leslie, if that works, it is certainly the easiest solution. Don't know about your return options. Tailstocks often have a pit of play in them, but if you can consistently get it to lock down in alignment by holding forward, you can overcome the problem without messing with the headstock bolts. What you are looking for is the ability to sandwich a thin piece of metal (like a razor blade) vertically between the centers without it deflecting to one side or the other -- thus indicating perfect alignment.

Dangit, now you're gonna make me take a razor out to the shop, just to try this.
 

Wingdoctor

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Messages
272
Location
Columbus, OH
Not on my Powermatic! You should expect to have the centers aligned or repair or replacement until they do. Otherwise you have an expensive boat anchor. Don't give up, insist that PSI fix the problem.
 

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
I would certainly like PSI to fix the problem, but the tech basically said that this is just how lathes are made. I do feel like he wasn't even listening to me. He answered the phone by asking me what problem I'm having and then answering for me by guessing that my lathe "won't turn on today." He did, however, give me his name and said to ask for him of I have any other problems. How do I get them to fix the problem/replace whatever need to be replaced?
 

Brian G

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
1,567
Location
Bloomington, MN
When I got my pencrafter lathe, I had the same issue.

The headstock is held to the bed with four bolts. Loosen them and align the head to the locked down tail. It takes all of 2 minutes to fix.

This is worth a try. I bought a gently used Turncrafter that was misaligned. I did the same as carlmorrell and fixed the problem. I think I spent 3 minutes because I didn't pay attention to how much pressure I exerted when tightening the bolts and had to re-do it.

Second reading: I noticed that TonyL mentioned that your tailstock locks in two different positions. I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean the locking handle locks in two different positions? Mine does that, but I think it's supposed to do that. It locks in the up position and the down position.
 
Last edited:

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
"Second reading: I noticed that TonyL mentioned that your tailstock locks in two different positions. I'm not sure what that means. Do you mean the locking handle locks in two different positions? Mine does that, but I think it's supposed to do that. It locks in the up position and the down position."

No, I mean that when I slide the tail stock toward the head stock, sometimes the position is perfectly centered and sometimes the tail stock is slightly off to the right. I can lock it down in either position, but when I have a blank between the centers, it's no longer possible to tell if the points of the centers are perfectly aligned.
 

Trees2Pens

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
55
Location
Wildwood, NJ
PSI Road Trip ?

Leslie, I have the same PSI lathe and think the headstock needs adjustment. Your photo seems to show it needs to be moved back a bit. The photo shows one of the allen wrench bolts too. I would relieve the belt tension and then tap it gently and tighten the bolts. Now plan B ...

How far are you from PSI in Philadelphia? Take it there yourself if that fails. I've been there a few times and they are pretty nice. Then you can pop in the retail store. That's fun. :)

John
 

Psychmike22

Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
139
Location
NY
I had the same problem with the same lathe. I also had the same conversation with the same tech person. Who gave me the same answer. I only use PSI when I have to now. To fix my issue I loosened all of the bolts on the headstock and tapped it with a mallet until a 60 degree dead center mounted in the headstock was point to point with a 60 degree love center in the tailstock. It solved 95 percent of my OOR issues.
 

thrustmonkey

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
113
Location
Illinois
Leslie,
Decent lathes are not made like that! Only cheap, worthless, garbage is made like that. That tech lied to you. None of the machines we use should have that much "play" or misalignment in them.

You paid for a machine that is supposed to work properly to do the job it was designed for. That is what you paid good money for. And you are not getting what you paid for. Even though it is very remote, there is a safety risk factor to consider.

How can we make a decent product if we can't turn it round or cut it straight because our equipment is made sloppily?

I hope that tech isn't blowing you off because you're a woman, thinking he can pull the wool over your eyes. Call him back up and tell him if he doesn't straighten the situation out, you'll bring the lathe in yourself and use it to give him a free prostate exam! That'll learn 'im!

Ross
Sorry for the rant, this just infuriates me!
 

Paul in OKC

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2004
Messages
3,089
Location
Oklahoma City, OK, USA.
I hate to be the downer here, but I agree that wood lathes are not precision machines. If nothing else, when you lock down the tail stock after sliding it to position, reach in the front part (towards the head) and pull gently towards you then lock it down. Or push it if that is the way it is off.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
Whether I bought it or my wife bought it, I would ask for a replacement or threaten to contest the charge. You paid for something that at minimum can make a round pen. You aren't asking it make make bearings for an F-16.

If they didn't provide me with a NEW replacement, I would contest the charge. It's like buying a shirt and getting it home and finding out it has one sleeve. The device is not performing its minimum INTENDED function.

I worked in retail for 4 years, and despised the practice of returning goods that worm worn, stained (I will spare all the details), altered....

I am highly sensitive to retailers being abused and allowed myself to be stuck because my conscience would not allow me to return it - even unconditionally guaranteed items.

Moreover, I wouldn't accept a repair either. They have your money and you wouldn't have a lathe.

Or use it as a dedicated buffing wheel and buy another brand - which may not be immune from the same problem. No sarcasm intended. I just want to see you with what you paid for. It never worked right from the start.

I wonder how that technician would like his advice/comments to appear in PSI's product review. That is sure going to sell a lot of their lathes (sarcasm intended)


Ok...the ex-Yankee is going to bed now. :). I don't mind overpaying for something or even getting ripped-off, but something should work as intended for at least a little while.

Good night and good turning.
 

Band Saw Box

Passed Away Dec 8, 2021
In Memoriam
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
3,670
Location
Hampton, VA 23666
Leslie
I have a HF 10x18 lathe and I had the same kind of problem due to play in the tail stock. When I first got the lathe I check the alignment of the head and tail stock and I noticed a bit of play in the tail stock would change the alignment so I used this to see if it kept it square. Nobex Quattro 300 Folding Square | Drafting Folding Square and it did now when ever I get ready to lock the tailstock in place I use the square and I know that the head and tail stocks are in alignment.
 

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
I decided to give the PSI tech's advice a try and, after carefully sliding the tail stock toward the head stock and locking it in, turned a blank for a Gatsby pen. The end result was still slightly (not as bad as yesterday) out of round. In the interest of complete disclosure, I am using the standard bushings that I purchased with the kit, not TBC bushings.

I called PSI to talk to customer service about the issue. Naturally, they transferred me to technical assistance who then hung up on me before I even got to speak to anyone. This happened yesterday as well. I called back, spoke to someone else in customer service and again explained the problems I'm having. She said I would have to speak to a tech. When I told her I don't want to speak to someone who will just tell me to "practice" moving the tail stock toward the head stock, she said "Well, what do you want me to do?" I told her I really think there is a problem with the lathe and she put me on hold and transferred me to technical assistance (again). After 30 rings and no answer, I hung up. This, too, happened twice yesterday when I called.

Adjusting the head stock via the bolts will not help yield consistent results since the tail stock does not end up in exactly the same spot each time.

The ultimate lesson here, I think, may be: don't buy a PSI Turncrafter.
 

Paul in OKC

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2004
Messages
3,089
Location
Oklahoma City, OK, USA.
Is the issue at one end more than the other? If at the head stock end, check the center for run out. If you have an indicator, turn the tool holder so the end is at the tip and spin by hand and see if it moves around or is still. If at the tail stock end, check the live center for run out, especially if you are using the stock center that came with the lathe.
 

MikeinSC

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2014
Messages
495
Location
SC
I had a similar issue with my HF lathe. After several pen mandrels I finally conceded and bought a pen mandrel saver and another brand new mandrel.

I then aligned the mandrel to be on center with the mandrel saver and haven't had an issue since. This does mean that the center points of the head and tail stock do not align when pushed together but what is more important is that the end of the mandrel is aligned with the tail stock now.

I got the same kind of answers you did saying to fiddle and futz with it, should've bought a Jet, you're overtightening everything, etc.

Good luck.
 

Brian G

Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2013
Messages
1,567
Location
Bloomington, MN
No, I mean that when I slide the tail stock toward the head stock, sometimes the position is perfectly centered and sometimes the tail stock is slightly off to the right. I can lock it down in either position, but when I have a blank between the centers, it's no longer possible to tell if the points of the centers are perfectly aligned.

Can you take some pictures when it's perfectly centered, and when it's slightly off to the right? I'm most interested in how the base of the tailstock fits in the groove of the bed.

I'm trying to replicate the problem, but I can't visualize what you're experiencing.

Is the nut (part #41) underneath that tightens up the locking nut (part #40) attached to the "cam follower tailstock" (part 5-1) too loose? This might cause the tailstock to lift up out of the groove in the bed.
 

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
I contacted the president of my local turning club and am going to take my lathe over to his house tomorrow. The man is a brilliant turner with many many years of turning experience. I thought it would be easier if someone could see what I'm talking about since it's so difficult to explain it accurately in writing. We're going to turn a few blanks so he can see what the problem is. I'll post what I learn.
 

Rockytime

Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
1,074
Location
Arvada, CO 80003
So far all I have turned is one pen. I just got started. I have been turning metal for quite a long time. I have only seen one wood lathe and that is my little Record Power lathe. It is a nice sturdy little piece of iron and appears to be quite well built. It does not, however, compare with my much larger metal lathes. My wood lathe tail stock simply slides with a keyway in a slot in the bed. There is no front to back adjustment as there is on all my metal lathes. I do think you are doing the smart thing. If you are uncomfortable with your lathe showing it to someone who knows is good. I am waiting to see what you find out and how it is resolved.
Good Luck, Les
 

cestmoi

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
79
Location
Cranberry Township, PA
After taking my lathe over to my turning club president's house--a master turner and former turning instructor with 19 year's turning experience, membership in 3 turning clubs, and 6 lathes of varying sizes in his shop--here's what I learned:

1. The tail stock in my Turncrafter lathe has an abnormal amount of play in it as a result of it fitting too loosely in the channel. Yes, many wood lathes have a bit of variance in the fit of the tail stock and will move just slightly in the channel, but mine has too much.

2. My OOR issues may or may not be caused by this, depending on how I move the tail stock toward the head stock each time I turn.

3. I have been using my mandrel incorrectly because I was not tightening it down adequately. This caused the mandrel to vibrate in the maxi-mandrel shaft and mandrel saver.

4. If I choose to use my mandrel, instead of TBC, I can be confident that my mandrel is not bent (he tested it).

5. The PSI tech i spoke with was giving me the runaround. PSI should replace my poorly fitting tail stock.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
You know where I sit on this....return it. Here's why:

1. You paid for a brand new lathe that at minimum can make a decent pen.
2. I do not doubt your friend (in fact, would love to see his work) , but could there be play in the tail stock and channel
3. Once you accept a new tail stock from PSI, I can see them telling you that they have made good on this and they are no longer responsible for a lathe that you tried to fix yourself.

I hope it all works out for you. You have 100X my level of patience.

:)
 

lwalper

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
492
Location
Lancaster, TN
My Jet 1221 is not misaligned horizontally (as in the previous pic), but vertically. It's fairly new, purchased last July from Woodcraft with not a whole lot of hours on it even yet. Have made a few pens (100 or so) and bowls. Is that a function of wear, sliding the tailstock back and forth, and the nose of the tailstock dropping a bit? It seems that when I first got it that everything looked pretty straight?? I know metal turning lathes have adjusting shims for vertical alignment and an adjusting screw to enable horizontal alignment to get the tailstock exactly aligned with the headstock which is important because the toolrest rides down the ways. If everything is not perfectly aligned you'll introduce taper, not an out of round condition.

I understand the desire to have both ends pretty closely aligned on center, but the accuracy of the cut is only as good as the steadiness of my hand. The work is spinning on some sort of centerline even if it's not exactly aligned from head to tail - sort of like the driveshaft in your car where the U-joint allows for a degree of out-of-alignment yet still transfers power in a straight line.

I just got some new centers (carbide dead center and triple bearing live center with 0.0003 centerline accuracy) and turned a pen blank BTC. Didn't notice any problem with it. Where there would be trouble is drilling and tapping for kitless pens. There's where you'll really see a need for something running straight and true to center. So far I'm a long way from needing that kind of accuracy.
 

Paul in OKC

Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2004
Messages
3,089
Location
Oklahoma City, OK, USA.
Nope, not wear. Again wood lathes are not made to the same specs like a metal lathe. They are generally designed for bowl and spindle turning. Not for small short pieces that need to be as accurate as we want our pens to be. Doesn't mean we can't make them on these, and many have shown, but.......
They may be off up and down, or side to side a bit. What you said about steady of hand is right on, IMHO.
If you want the accuracy of a metal lathe, then buy one, even one of the cheapies, and make a tool rest for using the turning tools on it.
 

TonyL

Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
8,904
Location
Georgia
This lathe is specifically made for making pens, sold by PSI, part of their pen-making starter kit, and sold/distributed by some very fine pen makers etc. I know all know that. I am not saying that it should make o-rings for nuclear subs, but a pen? :).
 
Top Bottom