scotian12
Member
A few months back someone posted a new pen which they said was the quality of a statesman pen and looked similiar to it. Could someone tell me what this kit is and who sells it. Thanks Darrell Eisner
Statesman like pen kit
- Thread starter scotian12
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BSea
Member
glycerine
Member
Maybe the Triton?
Russianwolf
Member
Maybe the Majestic. It has a similar look and quality. Sold by PSI
scotian12
Member
With the little information I provided, Jeremy is the winner. Its pretty close to the statesman but with fewer plating options and a lower cost. I think I will proceed over to exotic blanks to do some shopping. Thank you all for your help. Darrell Eisner
micharms
Member
If it is the Triton you can buy them from William Wood-rite here in Canada.
Michael
Michael
omb76
Member
I would not put the Triton in the same class as the Jr. Statesman. I would consider it to be in the same category as a Baron or Sedona. To me it is a cheap imitation, the lower barrel is too short and the design lacks the detail that the Statesman has. Just my opinion and you know what people say about opinions... 
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
I would not put the Triton in the same class as the Jr. Statesman. I would consider it to be in the same category as a Baron or Sedona. To me it is a cheap imitation, the lower barrel is too short and the design lacks the detail that the Statesman has. Just my opinion and you know what people say about opinions...
One of my customers did a side-by-side sales comparison with the Jr. Statesman. He reported that the Triton outsold the Jr. Statesman at exactly the same price. So, while we may have any number of opinions---try a side-by-side sales comparison and let your customers decide for you how much the "difference" is worth.
FWIW.
omb76
Member
I would not put the Triton in the same class as the Jr. Statesman. I would consider it to be in the same category as a Baron or Sedona. To me it is a cheap imitation, the lower barrel is too short and the design lacks the detail that the Statesman has. Just my opinion and you know what people say about opinions...
One of my customers did a side-by-side sales comparison with the Jr. Statesman. He reported that the Triton outsold the Jr. Statesman at exactly the same price. So, while we may have any number of opinions---try a side-by-side sales comparison and let your customers decide for you how much the "difference" is worth.
FWIW.
Interesting, I would not have thought that. But then you have to take into consideration that maybe his particular market just prefers the Triton. We've all heard time and time again on here that one pen sells great in a certain area while another seller can't move one to save his soul. The 2 major downfalls with the Triton in my opinion is that the lower barrel is too short and you can't get premium platings on it. I would have a a difficult charging the same price for a Triton as a Jr. Statesman, just because I don't feel it is the same caliber pen. Now, just to muddle the waters a little more, the Jr Statesman does have issues with the threads but that is nothing new. I have pretty much switched over exclusively to the Majestic series now because of the threads on the Jr. Statesman.
glycerine
Member
I would not put the Triton in the same class as the Jr. Statesman. I would consider it to be in the same category as a Baron or Sedona. To me it is a cheap imitation, the lower barrel is too short and the design lacks the detail that the Statesman has. Just my opinion and you know what people say about opinions...
One of my customers did a side-by-side sales comparison with the Jr. Statesman. He reported that the Triton outsold the Jr. Statesman at exactly the same price. So, while we may have any number of opinions---try a side-by-side sales comparison and let your customers decide for you how much the "difference" is worth.
FWIW.
To be fair though, do you know if your customer used the same materials for the bodies on those pens? And if they were all fountains or all rollerballs, etc.?
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Yes, the purpose was to compare the two---he made "every effort to be fair" as he put it to me. But, he noted that he made about $10 more on each Triton so, he concluded, "I could have been pushing them, without realizing it---I was THRILLED with the result".
As scientific as anything can get, as long as people are still involved.
Ignore, if you wish, I just think some folks will find it interesting. I KNOW I did!!
As scientific as anything can get, as long as people are still involved.
Ignore, if you wish, I just think some folks will find it interesting. I KNOW I did!!
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ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
As to the plating, please explain to me what 22kt gold is, relative to "Upgrade gold". They are both alloys, so WHY is 22kt superior, in your esteem?
The other plating is chrome vs. "platinum". Again, I have no idea what "platinum" is, but I know chrome is durable.
We do offer both on our website, so I really have no pony in this parade. (4th of July reference!!)
The other plating is chrome vs. "platinum". Again, I have no idea what "platinum" is, but I know chrome is durable.
We do offer both on our website, so I really have no pony in this parade. (4th of July reference!!)
omb76
Member
Giddyup! :biggrin: I have not had good experience with "upgrade gold" having experienced significant wear in a short amount of time. I have not had this problem with 22k gold yet (not saying it won't happen though). I do know that if I were to buy a piece of jewelry I would definitely buy platinum over chrome and 22k over "upgrade gold". I use this same logic when it comes to platings on pens. If I expect to receive a premium price for my pen then I will offer a premium product. I agree that chrome is very durable, but "Platinum" (aka rhodium) just has a very elegant (expensive) ring to it.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
I have grave concerns about all the claims made by our suppliers (my own included).
This is one reason why:
Q. What does "rhodium" have to do with white gold jewelry? A. Rhodium is also a precious metal. In fact, it's about ten times costlier than gold! ...
Making it $15000 per ounce, currently.
You BELIEVE it is in our pens, in any meaningful amount??
This is one reason why:
Q. What does "rhodium" have to do with white gold jewelry? A. Rhodium is also a precious metal. In fact, it's about ten times costlier than gold! ...
Making it $15000 per ounce, currently.
You BELIEVE it is in our pens, in any meaningful amount??
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ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
So far as I know (you may certainly correct me!!) the only reference to 22kt gold is in the centerband and on the ends of the pens--NO wear spots. So we will never know if it is durable---very smart placement, and it is the same with the Triton, chrome version--no wear points are using the gold.
BTW, I agree that the Triton centerband does not look as nice---but I BUY pens to sell. That's why the "comparison" on the retail counter makes sense to me.
omb76
Member
I'm not sure what rhodium has to do with white gold either....
I have to believe that the pens are plated in the materials the manufactures say they are. Meaningful amounts? Probably not. However...... because the manufacture says it is plated in 22k gold and platinum (rhodium) I can then sell them to my customers with the same statement. Again it's in perceived value. How do I know the seats in my car are leather and not leatherette? I have to trust what the manufacturer says.
OKLAHOMAN
Member
David I'm with you, I sell perceived value and when talking to my customer they see more value in Rhodium than chrome. Which sounds better to the customer
"We use the finest platings as all the silver looking plating is rhodium one of the hardest and shiniest of the platinum family"
or
"This pen is chrome plated".
"This pen is chrome plated".
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omb76
Member
I agree, the only pens I've seen with 22k is on the center band and end caps. I guess it all boils down to what makes the user happy. You can compare these pen kits to a Hyundai Genesis (Triton) and a Mercedes E-class (Statesman). They look pretty much the same, but the Mercedes gives you a whole different feel when you're in it.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
In part, because you BELIEVE Mercedes' advertising.
I tend to discount advertising and extravagant claims, I prefer to tell folks that the pens are made from "jewelry grade alloys" of precious metals, chosen for beauty and durability.
I ain't no jeweler and I don't think our components would pass a test to prove the claims of our suppliers. So, I prefer to avoid the claims.
BTW, cars have thousands of moving parts, pens have a couple pieces of metal---the analogy has always seemed meaningless, to me.
I tend to discount advertising and extravagant claims, I prefer to tell folks that the pens are made from "jewelry grade alloys" of precious metals, chosen for beauty and durability.
I ain't no jeweler and I don't think our components would pass a test to prove the claims of our suppliers. So, I prefer to avoid the claims.
BTW, cars have thousands of moving parts, pens have a couple pieces of metal---the analogy has always seemed meaningless, to me.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
While I agree your first statement is more impressive, if I KNOW that Gold costs $1300ish an ounce and Rhodium is ten times that--I may question your statement, as follows:
"So, Ms. Prospect, the fine folks at Bella are telling you you're buying rhodium, which sells at something over $10,000 per OUNCE.
If his supplier sold him a 2 carat diamond, for $500, do you suppose he would resell it on that basis or have a jeweler check to see if he's really selling cubic zirconium?? Sometimes the human eye can be deceived. That's why we have a brain to ascertain if something is "too good to be true".
Real rhodium and pure gold are too expensive to be a meaningful part of these pen components, even though our suppliers claim they are "present'.
omb76
Member
This has turned into an interesting thread Ed. I wasn't comparing pens to cars, rather using car brands as an example. I can't remember the last time I saw an advertisemnt for a Mercedes, but I do know that they are considered to be the best. I see an ad for Huyndai every day, not saying it isn't a good brand, but the market value of a Mercedes is higher than most any other brand because of the quality of materials and workmanship that go into each vehicle. The high end pen kit manufacturers have used this same model to create their kits.
It all boils down to what market you're trying to sell your goods to. To some people platinum and gold don't have enough value to pay extra for. Others, do see the value in it. We're not making Bic pens we're making custom writing instruments. If I, as a consumer, am going to shell out some bucks for a custom pen, then it had better be made of something other than "upgraded" gold and chrome - I don't see any value there. Image is important to the market we are selling to otherwise there wouldn't be a demand for a high end product.
I do see the point that you are making though I think. Yes chrome is just as durable as platinum and the upgrade gold accents are not in a high wear spot on the kits so the likelyhood of wear is lessened. Is platinum & 22k gold plating worth more than chrome and 22k gold? That is up to the market and ultimately the one paying the money for the product to decide. Also, let's not be fooled into thinking that the plating on these components is anything other than ultra thin and just enough to say that it is platinum & 22k. Do I believe that the manufacturers really do provide what they say they do - yes, but that is just me.
It all boils down to what market you're trying to sell your goods to. To some people platinum and gold don't have enough value to pay extra for. Others, do see the value in it. We're not making Bic pens we're making custom writing instruments. If I, as a consumer, am going to shell out some bucks for a custom pen, then it had better be made of something other than "upgraded" gold and chrome - I don't see any value there. Image is important to the market we are selling to otherwise there wouldn't be a demand for a high end product.
I do see the point that you are making though I think. Yes chrome is just as durable as platinum and the upgrade gold accents are not in a high wear spot on the kits so the likelyhood of wear is lessened. Is platinum & 22k gold plating worth more than chrome and 22k gold? That is up to the market and ultimately the one paying the money for the product to decide. Also, let's not be fooled into thinking that the plating on these components is anything other than ultra thin and just enough to say that it is platinum & 22k. Do I believe that the manufacturers really do provide what they say they do - yes, but that is just me.
omb76
Member
BTW...Sorry Darrell for hijacking your thread! It does all have to do with your original topic of the Triton and Statesman though... :biggrin:
It does all have to do with your original topic of the Triton and Statesman though... :biggrin:
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Well David, I believed what the pen sellers said until I found out that "Iridium point---Germany" that had been stamped on every nib I sold did NOT mean there was any iridium, NOR did it mean they were made in Germany.
When I tried to source nibs, I had a sample sent to me from Rizheng that was proudly emblazoned, "iridium point--Germany". It was steel, with a hard substance point (no specific element), made in China.
That is when I lost my "pen virginity" and started using my head when I read their claims. It is said "Ignorance is bliss". As a vendor I prefer, "This is what I am told---I am skeptical about it's veracity!"
When I sell, I believe my customer expects me to evaluate the available products and provide them the best they can purchase, within their budget. So, that is what I attempt to do.
Consider all of this just "Food for Thought"!
When I tried to source nibs, I had a sample sent to me from Rizheng that was proudly emblazoned, "iridium point--Germany". It was steel, with a hard substance point (no specific element), made in China.
That is when I lost my "pen virginity" and started using my head when I read their claims. It is said "Ignorance is bliss". As a vendor I prefer, "This is what I am told---I am skeptical about it's veracity!"
When I sell, I believe my customer expects me to evaluate the available products and provide them the best they can purchase, within their budget. So, that is what I attempt to do.
Consider all of this just "Food for Thought"!
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thewishman
Member
Platinum jewelry is plated with rhodium because rhodium is much more durable than platinum.
omb76
Member
Ah, two stubborn minds. Are you a hard headed kraut (German) like I am too? LOL!
PenMan1
Member
Darrell:
FWIW, I sell the Triton and Jr. Statesman at the same pricepoint. I make sure that the customer knows that Triton is Chrome and the Statie is Rhodium. At my shop, both products carry the same warranty.
The Triton outsells the Jr. Statesman 4 to 1. Additionally, the Triton is MUCH easier to modify, as the centerband is 3 pieces. This makes custom CBs very simple. Additionally, the top "do dad" is simple to remove and make a custom cap. It uses the same closed end mandrels as Jrs.
I have made hundreds since the Triton has been available and the only plating issue I have encountered was with a gold model that I gave to a friend to build. This guy is a "real" pen guy, so I'm sure there was a problem.
The Triton really requires a drop of threadlock at the cap joint, as the clip will slide without it. I am estimating that I have 300 of these in the marketplace with no warranty issues.
The rollerball spring is a bit "wimpy", so I stretch the sping to reduce the "mushy" feel.
Triton has done very well for me.
FWIW, I sell the Triton and Jr. Statesman at the same pricepoint. I make sure that the customer knows that Triton is Chrome and the Statie is Rhodium. At my shop, both products carry the same warranty.
The Triton outsells the Jr. Statesman 4 to 1. Additionally, the Triton is MUCH easier to modify, as the centerband is 3 pieces. This makes custom CBs very simple. Additionally, the top "do dad" is simple to remove and make a custom cap. It uses the same closed end mandrels as Jrs.
I have made hundreds since the Triton has been available and the only plating issue I have encountered was with a gold model that I gave to a friend to build. This guy is a "real" pen guy, so I'm sure there was a problem.
The Triton really requires a drop of threadlock at the cap joint, as the clip will slide without it. I am estimating that I have 300 of these in the marketplace with no warranty issues.
The rollerball spring is a bit "wimpy", so I stretch the sping to reduce the "mushy" feel.
Triton has done very well for me.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Well, this discussion started me thinking---always dangerous!!!
Rhodium plating is pretty well explained, in some depth here:
http://www.finishing.com/faqs/whitegold.shtml
Does a ring get more use than a pen? Since they EXPECT to have to replate with rhodium "frequently" on rings, should we expect pens to be archival in life?
Amazing the amount of misinformation I have read, prior to this---or is THIS "misinformation" from a site that specializes in plating questions?
I love the internet, cause it makes information available on any subject. I hate the internet because you have no idea how authoritative that information is.
More "food for thought".
And, yes, my mother's side of the family is Hofstetter, from Germany, third generation. But I prefer to think I am less stubborn and more "customer-centric" which leads to skepticism---especially when we are NOT hearing from the manufacturer. We hear what the distributor says the "manufacturer" says and we don't know if the "Manufacturer" is really only an "assembler".
We DON'T know a lot more than we DO know about the pedigree of these "parts".
Rhodium plating is pretty well explained, in some depth here:
http://www.finishing.com/faqs/whitegold.shtml
Does a ring get more use than a pen? Since they EXPECT to have to replate with rhodium "frequently" on rings, should we expect pens to be archival in life?
Amazing the amount of misinformation I have read, prior to this---or is THIS "misinformation" from a site that specializes in plating questions?
I love the internet, cause it makes information available on any subject. I hate the internet because you have no idea how authoritative that information is.
More "food for thought".
And, yes, my mother's side of the family is Hofstetter, from Germany, third generation. But I prefer to think I am less stubborn and more "customer-centric" which leads to skepticism---especially when we are NOT hearing from the manufacturer. We hear what the distributor says the "manufacturer" says and we don't know if the "Manufacturer" is really only an "assembler".
We DON'T know a lot more than we DO know about the pedigree of these "parts".
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PenMan1
Member
The other thing that I MUCH prefer about the Triton is that the spring is NOT glued into the tip. One thing is dislike about the JRs is that the spring is glued in, even in the fountain pen models. Unless you remove the spring in the Statie, it can make a real mess when using a FP ink pump.
I have a difficult time removing the spring without distorting it.
I have a difficult time removing the spring without distorting it.
OKLAHOMAN
Member
Andy,Andy,Andy lets see the triton has a spring that is "Mushie"
and needs to be stretched the clip needs a drop of loctite or it will spin.
In know you make a bigger profit:wink: on them and we have discussed this on the phone, you know my reasons for not carrying the triton . BTW a simple way to remove the spring from the Statie is with a dental pick:biggrin:, and thats one of the reasons I like them the spring is never "lost":tongue: when replacing a refill. As to ruining the spring when converting to a pump fountain pen ............
Andy I love playing devils advocate:biggrin:
and needs to be stretched the clip needs a drop of loctite or it will spin
.In know you make a bigger profit:wink: on them and we have discussed this on the phone, you know my reasons for not carrying the triton . BTW a simple way to remove the spring from the Statie is with a dental pick:biggrin:, and thats one of the reasons I like them the spring is never "lost":tongue: when replacing a refill. As to ruining the spring when converting to a pump fountain pen ...........
.Andy I love playing devils advocate:biggrin:
PenMan1
Member
Thanks for the spring tip, Roy! That means I don't have to use "all my words" when removing those pesky springs.
As you know, I scrambled to Trition after a very big Jr Gent problem a year or so ago. I found them easy to "customize" and help get me out of box a bit. As far as perceived value, all of my pens are warrantied against "everything except loss or stupidity" for the balance of my life. So.....my customers know that while I am tied to the quality of my suppliers, any "issues" are my problem....NOT theirs.
The reason I continue to sell Triton is because my modified Tritons outsell everything else 4 times over.
And for the record, I Loctite every joint on all Jrs AND stretch those springs, too. And devil does appreciate having such a good advocate as a friend. The reason I removed the JR spring on FPs is because I had a customer ruin a shirt when using an ink pump on a Jr. The problem turned out to be the spring getting caught up in the pump, causing am abundance of ink to flow into unintended places.
My only advice to anyone, especially Darrell, who makes a killer pen, is to make whatever finds its way to a new home the quickest
Respectfully submitted.
As you know, I scrambled to Trition after a very big Jr Gent problem a year or so ago. I found them easy to "customize" and help get me out of box a bit. As far as perceived value, all of my pens are warrantied against "everything except loss or stupidity" for the balance of my life. So.....my customers know that while I am tied to the quality of my suppliers, any "issues" are my problem....NOT theirs.
The reason I continue to sell Triton is because my modified Tritons outsell everything else 4 times over.
And for the record, I Loctite every joint on all Jrs AND stretch those springs, too. And devil does appreciate having such a good advocate as a friend. The reason I removed the JR spring on FPs is because I had a customer ruin a shirt when using an ink pump on a Jr. The problem turned out to be the spring getting caught up in the pump, causing am abundance of ink to flow into unintended places.
My only advice to anyone, especially Darrell, who makes a killer pen, is to make whatever finds its way to a new home the quickest
Respectfully submitted.
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ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Over the years I sold many different styles of pen.
At each show there would be a couple that returned to "Have the clip tightened", no matter what style kit it was.
I was unaware of Loctite at the time. Today, I would Loctite every clip---just as a preventive measure.
YMMV---wepypfi
At each show there would be a couple that returned to "Have the clip tightened", no matter what style kit it was.
I was unaware of Loctite at the time. Today, I would Loctite every clip---just as a preventive measure.
YMMV---wepypfi
glycerine
Member
I don't think rhodium is $15,000 and ounce, or $10,000. It was about $10,000 several years ago, but now I think it's between one and two. In any case, platings are very thin, measured in microns. A Troy ounce is a lot of metal compared to a thin plating on a small pen part. Also, some of the old Gillette razors were plated in Rhodium, so there's no reason not to believe that our pen parts are as well...
KenV
Member
Rhodium is a little over $2000 with some indication in the futures market for a bit of a rise in price --
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
You are free to believe whatever you want. The articles I read indicate that the price swings wildly from 5 to 25 times the price of gold.
The price of titanium--to make TiGold does not seem to encounter huge swings, but our suppliers have nearly doubled the price of those kits "due to cost increases". So, if you think they "absorbed" a 25x markup on rhodium---you are more gullible than I.
As I said, I believed "Iridiium and Germany"--fool me once, shame on you................
Believe what you wish. We have both available to provide the penmaker the choice---
The price of titanium--to make TiGold does not seem to encounter huge swings, but our suppliers have nearly doubled the price of those kits "due to cost increases". So, if you think they "absorbed" a 25x markup on rhodium---you are more gullible than I.
As I said, I believed "Iridiium and Germany"--fool me once, shame on you................
Believe what you wish. We have both available to provide the penmaker the choice---
marksman
Member
The post I believe you are referring to was in regard to the Marksman which is an assembly manufactured from stainless steel. The quality is higher than that of the Statesman because it is manufactured by us here in the USA. The assemblies will be available sometime in early August. I will be happy to answer any other questions that you may have. I have posted an update entitled "Marksman update..." but much to my dismay, it was posted under the business classified section
, but that's ok.
glycerine
Member
I understand what you are saying Ed, but this statement COULD be the key to keeping prices "low". If the price swings often, then the plating companies could be buying only when the price is low... Certainly they have enough stock on hand that they are not forced to buy when prices are at their peak.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
You do recall seeing the pictures of the little "huts" where, we are told, these components are manufactured. I have not seen pictures of the plating facilities---but I would not leap to the conclusion that they have a stockpile of rhodium, titanium, gold, copper (required for any plating), etc.
I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I simply feel the "rules of business" that we have grown accustomed to in the USA have made us very "gullible" on the world stage. Some day I am afraid someone will test these kits and open a whole new "can of worms".
For me, honesty is the best policy---so I will tell my customers, "I honestly don't KNOW what the plating is---here is what I have been told". But, I am NOT a plating expert--
That suits MY ethics and I can sell it--YMMV!!
glycerine
Member
The post I believe you are referring to was in regard to the Marksman which is an assembly manufactured from stainless steel. The quality is higher than that of the Statesman because it is manufactured by us here in the USA. The assemblies will be available sometime in early August. I will be happy to answer any other questions that you may have. I have posted an update entitled "Marksman update..." but much to my dismay, it was posted under the business classified section
?? I'm just speaking objectively, I like your kits and have nothing against you, but you can't really make a statement like that. Just because you produced something right here in the USA doesn't mean the quality is higher. Now I think the fact that your kits are American made is a great selling point in any case. And I'm not denying that your kits ARE higher quality, they very well may be, but if you want to claim that, you should give some hard evidence.
glycerine
Member
I know you're not trying to be argumentative, and you may very well be correct. I'm usually very skeptical about claims, but I'm just trying to give them the benefit of the doubt...
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OKLAHOMAN
Member
So are we to not believe any of our suppliers, are the Triton's really pated in Chromium, is Berea lying to us, are the Statesmen and others supplied by CSUSA really plated in rhodium, is Craft supply lying to us, is Penn State lying to us on their Majestic's , seems like one big conspiracy is going on.
Or are we to believe that everyone in this industry are crook's and liars, because that's how I'm reading Ed's post on this subject. He is totally right to believe what he has said and my ethics are as good as his in telling my customers exactly what ALL our suppliers are telling us. I certainly can and will live with that until proven otherwise and not compromise my honesty or integrity
I hope someone from each of our suppliers would chime in on this.
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