Stabilizing pen blanks

[chgrjim]

Okay, I bought some very nice buckeye burl from a vendor I trust on ebay. Much to my delight, they were every bit as beautiful as they appeared in the picture. However, they are extremely lightweight. I am a little concerned that they will tend to shatter on the lathe.

I have never stabilized my own blanks before and I was hoping for a little guidance or, at least, some opinions on which product works the best and what the procedure may be.

Thank you to anyone who can help.

JIM

 

[jeff]

Some folks were talking about "Nelsonite".
http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=174

 

[Rick Prevett]

Jim, you might read through the thread I started (in this folder), titled 'Spalted Maple Blank Prep', or something like that.

rick

 

[Rudy Vey]

I called Nelsonite yesterday and asked for a small sample to try it out, but they sell it only in 5 gal pails or 55 gal drums. Just too much for some pen blanks to be stabilized. Would be interesting to find out if we can get together and buy a 5 gal pail and split the stuff and the costs, too.

Rudy

 

[Scott]

Hey Rudy!

We have begun supporting group buys here at Penturners.org. Daniel Yourdon is our quartermaster for group buys at this time. But maybe you can let him know the specifics, and he can determine if it is feasible. He's been doing a great job on the CA Glue group buy!

Scott.

 

[jeff]

I think you can buy empty quart paint cans at Home Depot.
I'm in for a quart if someone wants to coordinate this!

 

[Daniel]

I am willing to coordinate such a buy. but I need soem info to give at least a rough price per ??? for it. e-mail me and we can get the nuts and bolts figured out.
an idea of just some of what i need.
contact info for the manufacturer or supplier. this has to be interactive contact to be sure about shipping restrictions and repackaging issues.
pricing and shipping costs. reshipping requirements. any hazzards in handling the product. that's just the short list.
But I am very much the type to ask the question no matter how likely the answer is to be no just to absolutly hear the no.

 

[Rudy Vey]

Dan,
I just send you an e-mail with some of the info I gathered, not quite sure if it came through, though. let me know.

Rudy

Originally posted by Daniel
<br />I am willing to coordinate such a buy. but I need soem info to give at least a rough price per ??? for it. e-mail me and we can get the nuts and bolts figured out.
an idea of just some of what i need.
contact info for the manufacturer or supplier. this has to be interactive contact to be sure about shipping restrictions and repackaging issues.
pricing and shipping costs. reshipping requirements. any hazzards in handling the product. that's just the short list.
But I am very much the type to ask the question no matter how likely the answer is to be no just to absolutly hear the no.

 

[Daniel]

Rudy,
Got the e-mail and will find out what i can and get back to you. and hopefully the rest about what can be done.

 

[Scott]

Hey Daniel,

Thanks for looking in to this! I'd be up for a quart or two. Another thing to think of is if we have a group member in the vicinity of were this stuff is shipped from - maybe they could pick it up and do the divvying and shipping. If they're willing. It would save on shipping cost!

Scott.

 

[Daniel]

Scott,
I will keep that in mind as I find out the rest of the details.
the first issues that ahve to be know are.
1. will they sell to just anyone or only a business?
2. are their any shipping restrictions, the most likely woudl be ground shipping only.
3. any homeland security issues type things,
4 availability of the MSDS. in the case of the CA Bulk Buy the MSDS is available on line at teh e-zbond web sight. I can also copy it and mail it with any order that requests it.
5. containers and availability of them to repack it in.
6. any hazards to be awair of in handling it.
7. remailing materials needed. boxes etc.
8 and at least a good guess at reshipping costs. I like to give just one price that will cover everything.
so far quarts are what are being requested so for now it looks like it would be best to just get a price set per quart and then order a bucket for every 20 quarts that are requested.
having someone that would will call the 5 gals and repack it etc. would be great. saving the shipping on what I guess woudl be a 40 pound container would be huge.
the address I have for them is
2320 Oak Industries Dr NE
Grand Rapids, MI
anyone in that area willing to bite???

 

[Old Griz]

I just received my free sample of Nelsonite today... they sent me a gallon for free... I will be trying it on a couple of different pen blanks this weekend... some box elder, walnut, spalted black locust and some regular black locust... all are nice and dry...
The directions say that full cure is 72 hours... I will post back as soon as I see what it does..

 

[Daniel]

Tom,
Please let me know what you find out, in a much detail as you can spare the time for. the more information I can include with the offer will help get others to take part. I still need to call them. it's been a very busy week for me. tonight is recouperating

 

[Old Griz]

Well so far I have soaked a spalted black locust, a regular black locust, a redwood and a red box elder in the solution for 10 minutes (the directions say 3 minutes, but I forgot the time).. they are now drying. I did notice an appreciable difference in the weight of the blanks, especially the spalted one... I did not see any real difference in the color of the blanks..
The stuff is a dark amber color has a very heavy petroleum distillate smell and I definately recommend you not do this in the house. Your significant other will not be happy.. in fact mine asked what the hell I spilled in the garage... LOL
Now all that remains is to see what they are like when dried...

 

[Andy Ryan]

I asked Bill Baumbeck this very same question, this is His reply. Many thanx Bill. I just copyed his reply,

Andy



A note on stabilization:

The best stabilization process utilize vacuum, expensive resins, pressure and heat. We don't know the actual specifics of the process (how much vacuum is applied, what chemicals are used, and so on). The chemical's penetration is totally dependent on the wood itself. Some woods will triple in weight while others may only gain 25% to 90%.

It has been our experience that wood soaked in some sort of chemical, which is completely different than what the commercial companies use, does not produce the same qualities as the product I offer. "Home brews" may harden the surface of the wood but once you cut through that outer layer you are back to natural wood. The money you spent on this inferior process is in now lying on the floor and is no use to you what so ever.



BB

----- Original Message -----
From: webmaster@arizonasilhouette.com

 

[wdcav1952]

I tried a technique using heated MinWax Wood Hardener and sealing the blanks in a canning jar. I agree with Bill. The outer surface was hard, the smell was that of a stabilized blank while turning, the material did not penetrate to, shall we say, finished pen depth. Either stabilize with thin CA as you go, or shell out for professionally stabilized blanks.
William

 

[Daniel]

I read the instructions for using the hot water and minwax. If this stuff penetrates better I am wondering if the jar and hot water would help even more. It doesn't cover the vacume part that Bill talks about but it does get the heat and pressure step into it. I have read in other places tips on the vacume phase. Actually the stabalization process is used in many fields. so it is not an impossible process to learn in detail. the hardest thing is figuring out just what resin to use or acrylic or whatever. what I am looking for is that my plain wood pens will not crack. I like to make lower priced pens from just ordinary woods but they tend to crack alot over time. some not for a year or more. to find the quality of wood that Bill regularly has is way out of my zone of interest. but I am given local woods all the time that would simply split unless they are treated in some way. hopefuly the Nelsonite will be a product that will fit that need. Actually the Mason jar and hot water produce the vacume when the jar lid is tightend and cooled.

 

[Old Griz]

Nelsonite is used in the custom pool cue industry to stabilize the maple foreshafts of pool cues.. and it is also used by custom bamboo fly rod makers to impregnate the bamboo. The way I look at it is... if this stuff can soak into a solid maple pool cue shaft before it is turned, it should work OK on pen blanks... when I spoke to the manufacturer, he said that it will soak 3/4" into the maple of the pool cue... and since our blanks are rarely over 3/4" square he saw no reason it would not soak to the middle of a pen blank... he said if you didn't think it would.. just drill the blanks first and then soak them. that way the stuff soaks from both side...

 

[Daniel]

Tom, I read the stuff on the Rods. then did a search for nelsonite on google. It looks like it is a pretty standard item for finer Pool Ques.
I need to call them and see if I can get my own sample as well. as many testamonies I can get the better. if I try and convince people to buy 5 gal of this stuff i want some idea what it will do for them.
Keep the updates coming and I am rooting for the outcome. I just re read the messages on pyntavryl. minwax wood hardener, adn others. non of them came out with alot of promise but I also see the potintial for their to be something lacking in the application. one other product that was mentioned but never tried was Resinal 90. real expensive at $70.00 per gal. I don't think this is what we are looking for. but you are right. I read several tests for nelsonite on th epool ques and penetration and if it penetrates maple that well their aren't alot of woods we use that it wouldn't penetrate. the next question is how solid does it get the wood.

 

[leenollie]

Good morning all,

I'm going to try an experiment using vacuum and FUTURE floor polish to stabilize some spalted Pecan. I am going to try both drilled and undrilled blanks. I figure if I can fully marinate meat in fifteen minutes at 10 inches of vacuum, I can get the acrylic to fully penetrate the punky wood in the same amount of time pulling 15-20 inches of vacuum. Once I get the vacuum jar set up and connect it up to my pump, I'll let you know how my experiment turns out.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner

 

[pen-turners]

thought I would post a little on this subject. I tried the Future Floor Polish and it was pretty much a disaster. Although it penetrated the Buckeye Burl quite well (because it is 90% water), it didn't seem to want to dry out. I let it set for 2 weeks and it was still "gummy when I tried to turn it". It also smelled really strong. I am pretty much convinced using Future floor polish is a lost cause!!!!


On another note, I have learned a new way to stabalize that actually works!!!!! I have turned 2 spalted buckeye burl blanks so far and they were comparable to turning a soft acrylic. It is reletively cheap and easy although the chemicals used are dangerous. I am in no way recommending anyone try this at home. If you do - I urge you to be careful because acetone is very flammable!!!! Thought I would pass this on.

STABILIZING WITH PLEXIGLAS!!!!!!

Break up a piece of Plexiglas into pieces small enough to put in a small jar. Add enough acetone to cover the Plexiglas. Let it stand for a few days. If the amount is small, it will turn to a clear Karo syrup looking mass in a couple of days. Enough for two or three gallons takes a mite longer. Just stir or shake often and you will get the clear "syrup". Dilute to a milk or light cream like consistency. Thinner penetrates quicker. Then just soak your wood in it - the longer the better. I pre-drilled my blanks before soaking to let them soak from the inside also. After you remove your wood, the acetone will evaporate off and leave the clear plexiglas compound embedded in the wood.

Thought I would pass this on. It worked for me and I hope it works for you also!!!![8)]



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[Old Griz]

Interesting concept on the plexiglass... how long did you actually soak it and how long did it take to dry completely... I might want to try this on some real punky spalted black locust...

 

[Scott]

Chris,

This is a great idea! But I have to ask you, whatever prompted you to try dissolving plexiglass? [8D]

Scott.

 

[Rick Prevett]

Chris, I have another question. You don't say explicitly, but do you thin it with more acetone? If not, then what?

thanks,

rick

 

[leenollie]

Good morning all,

Well, I just want to confirm pen-turners posting for FUTURE floor polish. I was a disaster. I cut a blank last night to check the penetration (which wasn't very far) and if it was dry to turn (which it wasn't.) The good news is that I had only pulled the vacuum for 30-minutes and was a little surprised by the depth of penetration for such a short time. My next experiment is to try it with polyurethane or Nelsonite when I get it. More postings later.

Lee Biggers
THe ever curious pen turner

"Without imagination...life stagnates."
Anon.

 

[its_virgil]

Originally posted by chgrjim
<br />Okay, I bought some very nice buckeye burl from a vendor I trust on ebay. Much to my delight, they were every bit as beautiful as they appeared in the picture. However, they are extremely lightweight.


I have had good luck soaking penblanks in polyurathane for a week or so and then letting them air dry for 4-5 days. Just cut, drill and put in a can of polyurathane. not like stabilized wood from BB but it did make some lightweight spalted stuff hold toghether and turn nicely.
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[wdcav1952]

Can we jump back to the plexiglass idea? I put two precut and drilled wormy hickory, and two OLD air dried precut and drilled figured mahogany blanks into the acetone and plexiglass solution. I put two precut pieces of cypress at the top of the bottle to hold the other two under. Overnight, one of the wormy hickory blanks had sunk to the bottom. Is this a good thing, or should I wonder why wood sinks? Thanks in advance.

William

 

[Scott]

Hi William,

Just guessing, but I would think the sinking would be a positive thing, indicating that the solution had soaked all the way through! I don't think it would hurt to leave it in there until the others are ready. Anybody else?

Scott.

 

[dw]

Why not use celluloid instead of plexiglass? CSUSA offers celluloid blanks...so it must be a suitable material for pen bodies--turning and finishing up nicely. So...there is a product called celluloid cement which is essentially celluloid acetate in acetone. It has been used in the shoemaking industry for years. It is thick, like honey, but is easily thinned with more acetetone. I wonder how it would do with Bethlehem Olive? I am pretty certain cut-offs from celluloid blanks could be dissolved in acetone, for that matter...although you might get into trouble with the different colors. Anyone have any thoughts as to why plexiglass is to be prefered?

 

[Daniel]

the way I see it, Plexiglass is what was finally found that actually works.
Following it up with other plastics as you mention may very well be worthwhile. being acetone base it sounds like the celluloid might work just as well. adn coudl even be better. But better is usually a personal decision ayway.
If anyone tries the Celluloid Camant let ua all know how it works out.

 

[jeff]

I saw mentioned over on Yahoo! Penturners that QUARTS of Nelsonite are available HERE.

 

[wdcav1952]

I let my wormy hickory sit at the bottom of the jar of acetone/plexiglass for three days. When I turned it, by the time I got close to slimline size, the plexiglass was gone. I tossed the blanks back into solution and will check them this weekend.

BTW, is Nelsonite really as good as people say? Does the wood really approach the feel and results of stabilized blanks?

William

 

[pen-turners]

William,
Did you drill the blank before soaking?? I always drill the blank first so it soaks from the inside out also.

Chris

 

[Rick Prevett]

Jeff, I checked out the Nelsonite site, and while quarts are actually on sale ($12.95, I think), there is a down side. There is a minimum $50 order. Now, they do have some tremendous looking 1.5 x 1.5 x 18(?) sized blanks for sale, so it might not take long to reach that $50 minimum, but it's there.

rick

 

[jeff]

Rick, I missed the minimum order info! They do have some gorgeous wood, but the stuff I like works out to about $10 a pen blank when cut from their larger stock. []

 

[Rick Prevett]

Jeff, I hadn't done the math for pen blanks from those pieces, but I did think the prices were a bit high, compared to what's available at my local wood store.

Where's Ol'Griz? He needs to keep us updated on his experiments, since he was able to get a free sample of Nelsonite (probably before every pen turner in the US called them for their 'free sample' [] )

If the stuff works, maybe I could talk our club into buys $50 worth (in quarts) for re-distribution.

rick

 

[wdcav1952]

Chris,
Yes, I did pre-drill the blanks. My solution had about 1/3 inch of gooey plexiglass at the bottom of the jar. Should I pour off the liquid acetone/plexiglass and use that to soak the blanks in? How long should I leave the blanks? I have two pre-drilled very old and dry mahogony (air-dried for 15 years or more in a deserted shop) still in the original solution.
Thanks, William

 

[Old Griz]

Old Griz is waiting for his pen trimmer to arrive... I have 4 blanks (2 heavy spalted and 2 normals) that soaked overnight all mounted with tubes, the real badly spalted ones look like they might still need a shot of CA (but they had some real soft spots anyway) but for the most part it looks like the stuff works... the insides of the blanks had a real smooth appearance when cut, not like normal wood.. and they were appreciably heavier.. I could feel the difference

 

[Daniel]

IF someone is willing to do a bulk buy for the nelsonite in quarts. I would be interested in helping fill the min. also If I can find the time I will help them get set up to keep track of the orders and make at least a guess at mailing costs etc. Sory I have simplly been to busy to follow through on this one folks. adn it ain't gonna get beter soon. I will be most of the summer building myself a new shop.

 

[leenollie]

Good afternoon all,

Just wanted to give everyone an update on my stabilizing experiments. I used some polyeurathane to stabilize soem spalted Pecan. From what I've read in this and other forums, once the piece sinks, it should be ready once it dries. I've also read that it can take days for the piece to sink. Well, I put some cut and drilled planks of spalted Pecan in a small jar of polyeurathane Saturday night and placed it in a vacuum. The poly foamed up a bit, but the next morning, before I went to church, I checked on the blanks and saw that they had sank to the bottom of the container. I released the vacuum and when I pulled the blanks out, there was a considerable weight difference. I am waiting for them to dry so that I can tube and turn them. I will let you know how that turns out in a couple of days.

Lee Biggers
The ever curious pen turner []