So I tried segmenting...

[WIDirt]

OK,

So I decided to try my hand at segmenting. I have had 0 luck out of 4 tries.

Here is what I was trying to do.
Using Ipe, aluminum, Snakewood. Ipe for the center 9/10, A layer of aluminum on each end, capped with Snakewood on each end. This is for a Stratus Click pen, by the way. Oh, and each attempt is with new materials. I don't feel like trying to scrape epoxy off, and then trying to line up previously attempted drilled holes.....

The Ipe that I am using is solid wood flooring from a friend, and the pen is for him. It is only 9/16" thick, so I know I'll have to be extremely careful to drill straight as this uses a 3/8" bit.
So, I cut the piece to the length I want, + a little bit. Sand it with a belt/disc sander at 80 grit to get square on each end. I figure the 80 grit will give it some grab. Clean the wood with Isopropyl alcohol. All seems good here.

Yes, I am using a Pepsi can for the aluminum. I cut it about 3/4 inch square, AFTER sanding both sides to bare aluminum, as I am aware of the coatings, both inside and out, using 400 grit to save as much aluminum as possible. I then scuff it well with 80 grit, again to get some grab. Clean the aluminum with Isopropyl alcohol. Again, all seems good here.

Snakewood is treated pretty much the same as the Ipe. Again, all seems well.

I mix up my epoxy, Locktite brand, 5 minute set, 20 minute "working" hold, 24 hour cure. Coat up the ends of the Ipe, add the aluminum, coat the aluminum, add the snakewood and clamp in the lathe. I clamp it tight enough that all is adhering, and tight, but trying to keep from clamping too tight. Left in the "clamp" overnight. Now understand, I have done this over the last week and a half.... 4 times....

OK, as soon as I start to drill, maybe 1/8" in, haven't even hit the aluminum yet, and, POOF, the snakewood lets go. Twice, I made it through the aluminum, only to have it and the snakewood pop off.

I am drilling at 500 rpm. Brad tip drill bit that is very recently purchased, but not its first pen, so I am sure it is sharp. (the cut on my finger from its first pen is still healing...) Tighten the tailstock about 1/4 turn, wait tighten again, wait, etc, etc. It takes a good three minutes to get a 1/4' deep this way... (My wife doesn't understand the heat thing... She keeps saying, if you go faster it won't get so hot.....NOT!)

So, am I drilling too fast, do you think? Am I not prepping my materials properly? Am I not ???whatevering???

Any help would be greatly appreciated! I'd really like to make this pen!

Thanks!

 

[Brian G]

I suggest using a sharp twist bit instead of a brad point.

 

[BRobbins629]

An old trick from a master is to first turn the blank round. THen wrap with gauze and soak liberally with CA. Turn a little off keeping most of the gauze to make round and then drill on lathe. Has saved many a precious blank.

 

[conandy]

I have had quite a few failures learning to get aluminum and wood segmenting to work. Most failures occur at the drill press. Some at the lathe. What worked for me:

1. use T88 structual epoxy instead of the 5 minute stuff. I have heard various opinions on whether or not the 5 minute epoxy is as good as longer cure epoxies, but the T88 seems to be almost universally recommended. I have had very good luck since I started using it. I also have had and continue to have pretty good luck using thick CA glue rather than epoxy. I think epoxy is better, but you can succeed with either.

2. I don't know if alcohol is a good solvent for the wood oils (may be, didn't research before posting this), but acetone usually is. Try cleaning with acetone instead of alcohol.

3. Wrap the blank with masking tape before drilling (when using drill press). Or something else that will hold it together while drilling.

4. drill slow and every so often let the drill bit and blank cool off. Heat is your enemy here. The different expansion rates of the metal and the wood are part of what kills us here.

5. Try drilling with lathe instead of drill press. Much easier to get a very slow and controllable drilling feed rate. And easier to clear the dust and chips. Spray the bit with water before each advance of the bit. Using "pen jaws" tends to hold the blank together. I was a skeptic but since getting the pen jaws, I LOVE drilling on the lathe much better than using a drill press.

6. Don't use brad point bit. Get a nice quality sharp standard drill bit (nothing fancy). I found that the brad point will often catch the edges of the metal and rip the blank apart.

7. When turning, do a lot of the roughing to round and get close to final size with an angle grinder and 80 grit or courser wheel on it (as it spins on the lathe, of course). Feels like cheating but you will eliminate a lot of the opportunities for the metal edges to catch on your turning tools. Makes dust collection almost impossible, but worth the mess.

8. lastly, assuming you made it this far: take VERY light passes with very sharp turning tools. Getting just a bit impatient towards the end and putting a touch too much pressure on the tool will result in a spectacular failure as the metal rips away from the wood after it catches on the tool.

Good luck. The metal and wood segmenting is worth it if you can get it to survive to the end.

Andy

 

[Loucurr]

I too have had failures with the epoxy. I now use CA and get much better results. I also drill the blank with a smaller bit and then follow up with the proper drill bit size for the kit. This seems to work well for both aluminum and copper. I also round off the edges on the disk sander to smooth out the blanks to avoid any catches on the metal.

 

[leehljp]

Drilling at 500? Too slow. Many people have disagreed with this but slower catches far more than fast.

Below is the proof of the pudding, so to speak. On another woodworking forum in which I am a member, an engineer decided to try an experiment. What kind of cuts do different speeds produce with the same bit? See the results. Too slow makes more catches.


View in Gallery

Second, 3/8 (6/16) bit drilling in 9/16 wood is a recipe for a blowout, unless you have the blank tightly squeezed on all sides for the full length. It is doable but p a t i e n c e is an absolute. Higher speed tiny teeny bites.

Next, Snakewood? Snakewood just looks for an excuse to crack. It is very brittle and dislikes heat when drilling. Patience, cooling, tiny teeny bites, well clamped.

Lastly, an old turner "Eagle" who has gone before us taught me to wrap delicate, brittle blanks in thread and CA the heck out of it. Turn a bit (half an inch or so, wrap the just turned portion again and CA, Continue to wrap each section and CAing after sectional turning. This is to keep it from blowing out. Then go over it again. BRobbins above said to use gauze. That would be even better.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f18/just-when-i-thought-54468/

In one conversation with me, I think this is the pen he described as doing it in the method as mentioned above. I know that I did a very delicately segmented pen that way. It worked fine.

One thing that I do on my multi-segments is I drill the holes before aligning and stack. This is a little tricky but it works over and over for me. I personally would not drill through multi segments. As mentioned above, don't use brad points on segmented pens.

I use epoxy on my segments but as mentioned, I usually drill my holes first.

 

[jttheclockman]

Hank has touched on the key to making a pen as what you described and that is drill each piece separately and build the blank on the tube. Eliminates that part of things.

The next thing is get rid of the alcohol. It has water in it and you are not taking the oils out of the wood with it. Get yourself some acetone. (home Depot)

Next thing is any 5 min epoxy does not have the holding power such as a full 12 hour or 24 hour curing epoxy. I too always use T88 epoxy.

Get rid of the brad point bits. Not meant for drill metals. Good quality machine bits.

You have chosen 3 materials that are on the upper end of the hardness scale so no matter drilling or turning it will take sharp, very sharp tools.

After you have the blank built and cured you need to prep for turning and that means knocking off the corners. Can be done with a saw or sander. But always remember heat is your enemy in any segmenting. Also you need to coat the outside of the blank with thin CA as you turn. After a few turns recoat and keep this up till desired size. Some people choose to sand the blank to size but i choose to turn using either a carbide round cutter and get to basic size and finish with a sharp skew.

Here is a photo of what I meant about drilling the parts ahead of time and building the blank on the tube.

 

[Marmotjr]

A hobby shop will have the 5 minute and longer epoxies. As a model racing boat builder, I can attest to the 5 minute epoxies do not have the strength required for structural parts. I usually use 30 minute or longer for stuctural parts, and 24 hour West system stuff for Keel pours. The keel glue can take quite a beating, holding up a ten pound keel at a 90' angle for long periods of time. Actually, it'll hold it pretty much indefinitely.

So to re-iterate what has already been mentioned, if you need strength in your adhesives, then get at least the 30 minute stuff from a hobby shop. And scuff the hell out of it. AFAIK, epoxy is a physical bond (to the target material), not a chemical, it needs a very rough surface (or at least a highly contoured one) to bond to.

 

[Roy_Quast]

I once made a tutorial on how to make a segmented pen with metal (aluminum, copper, or brass) and how to drill it all the way through without blowing it up. You can find the thread here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f17...ow-never-blow-up-blank-while-drilling-131424/

If you follow this you will never blow up a blank again.

 

[jttheclockman]

I once made a tutorial on how to make a segmented pen with metal (aluminum, copper, or brass) and how to drill it all the way through without blowing it up. You can find the thread here: http://www.penturners.org/forum/f17...ow-never-blow-up-blank-while-drilling-131424/

If you follow this you will never blow up a blank again.

That is one project that is still on my radar Roy. I always marvel at the site of all those pens. Still today one of the best set of pens I have seen come through this site. Thanks for sharing again.

 

[WIDirt]

Wow! Thanks for all the pointers! I don't have T88, so I'll have to look into that.

conandy, I do drill on the lathe. My DP is a POS and has too much runout, so I stopped using it for almost everything a loooong time ago!

I have not wrapped the blank, in anything, let alone thread and ca. That I"ll have to try.

leehljp, I am aware of the sizes and that I have very little to play with, but, the flooring I am playing with is from my friends restaurant. Since he was nice enough to part with a large chunk, I figure I can use it to say "Thanks".

I wasn't sure about the alcohol, but, I know that water is not a good thing to introduce into the mix. I will definitely pick up some acetone. A quick question here. Is there a special kind I'll need, or will the stuff my daughter uses for her figernails work?

Thanks again for all the replies. I'll take it all to heart, and hopefully, you'll get to see a not so awesome, but still segmented, pen shortly.

 

[jttheclockman]

I do not know what that stuff is but you can get 100% pure acetone from a paint store or Rocklers or you can get the stuff Home Depot sells which works just as well. I have been buying mine from Walmart. They are a bit cheaper. They sell in quart cans if you only want a small amount. I do suggest you wear the proper gloves when using this and read the can. Like all materials in a shop safety measures are always in play.

 

[WIDirt]

Thanks, jttheclockman. I'll see what I can find.

 

[Marmotjr]

I do suggest you wear the proper gloves when using this and read the can. Like all materials in a shop safety measures are always in play.

I think vastly more important than gloves (and gloves ARE important), is eye protection too. Why take a chance of an accidental splash?

I wear ANSI approved safety glasses all day (I get prescription safety glasses free through my work, and I get a new pair for every day wear each year), and they saved my eyes just the other day. I had a small (cheap) tupperware bowl full of wood hardener in it, and was trying to harden some blanks. I was tapping the lid to try to get the blanks to roll over some when my finger went through the lid. The hardener ended up squirting all over my face and chest. Ruined my shirt and left a film all over my skin. Luckily the glasses prevented any from getting into my eyes before I could close them. I immediately rinsed my eyes and face in a sink for a few minutes to flush the chemical off. Without the glasses, I would have been guaranteed to get some (quite a lot actually) in my eyes, and I really don't want to think what would have happened.

So yes, gloves are recommended, but also consider all the possible injuries that might occur and protect yourself accordingly. Acetone won't do much to your skin in small amounts, but in your eyes though.... *shudder*.

While still on the subject of safety, I had a "you dumb a**" moment the other day. I was turning some practice piece, that was kind of an inside out piece, and I stopped for a moment to take a draw on my cigar. So I lifted the face shield I normally wear for turning and took my draw. Then while still having the cigar in my mouth, therefore unable to close the shield again, I lightly touched the piece with a tool, which the piece then decided to detonate. A good chunk of it got me square in the forehead, underneath the open shield, only leaving a small mark though. I was lucky that it didn't do more damage, and given the mass of the piece that hit me, it could have.

So always think safety first. It's more than a saying. While you can't eliminate all injury risks, and even if you tried, it would be too cumbersome to work, you have to at least make an effort to mitigate as much of it as you can.

/rant :biggrin:

 

[jttheclockman]

I agree 100% about safety glasses. That should be a instant thing as soon as you enter the shop. I worked in construction for 43 years so I always was in the habit of wearing safety glasses because that was mandatory and it carried into my shop. The gloves is something people do not think of as much.

Safety in the shop should always be paramount no matter what you are doing. Taking a few minutes to do things safely will safe you in the long run. If it does not feel right it probably isn't. Stop and think the job through. As I said as an electrician for all those years my mind is constantly going. That is training.

 

[Marmotjr]

Well..... I do believe I am trying to kill my self now.

I took the cup end of what remained of the inside out goblet I was trying to do, and was trying to turn down the shattered end to mount on a seperate stem. Well, it launched again. This time hitting the work light attached to the lathe, spraying glass shards at me. But this time, the face shield was down!

 

[jttheclockman]

Well..... I do believe I am trying to kill my self now.

I took the cup end of what remained of the inside out goblet I was trying to do, and was trying to turn down the shattered end to mount on a seperate stem. Well, it launched again. This time hitting the work light attached to the lathe, spraying glass shards at me. But this time, the face shield was down!

Practice makes perfect. Keep trying you will get there.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[WIDirt]

I know how to solve that!

Well..... I do believe I am trying to kill my self now.

I took the cup end of what remained of the inside out goblet I was trying to do, and was trying to turn down the shattered end to mount on a seperate stem. Well, it launched again. This time hitting the work light attached to the lathe, spraying glass shards at me. But this time, the face shield was down!

This is not an acceptable use of a lathe. At this time, I believe you need to pack up all of your tools, blanks, woodworking equipment, lumber, etc., etc., and send them to me. I will use them for their intended purpose, which does not include bodily harm! Oh, wait. I cut myself with a drill bit... Ok, maybe you should keep them....:frown:

 

[Marmotjr]

Well..... I do believe I am trying to kill my self now.

I took the cup end of what remained of the inside out goblet I was trying to do, and was trying to turn down the shattered end to mount on a seperate stem. Well, it launched again. This time hitting the work light attached to the lathe, spraying glass shards at me. But this time, the face shield was down!

Practice makes perfect. Keep trying you will get there.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Not sure if you mean dead or with a finished goblet..... :mad-tongue: