jkirkb94
Member
How have your Sierra pens been selling? I've noted the popularity of them on the forum and I am trying to decide it I want to invest in them. I already have a lot of pen kits! Kirk[8D]
Sierra pen questions
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Paul in OKC
Member
Haven't sold one yet, but have only made one pen and converted one to a pencil. They are for gifts. I have shown them to others around and they like the looks. It is an easy kit to turn and assemble.
I am actually pretty disappointed in my Sierra sales.
Personally, I think that it's one of the most stylish pens out there. Since it only takes half a blank to make, I can cut my materials costs in half..and of course, it's a snap to create and assemble.
But alas...the Sierras have not done well for me so far. Granted, I've only been marketing them for the last 9-12 months, but there are enough other pens selling that it makes me scratch my head.
I would like to hear what other's responses are to this....
Personally, I think that it's one of the most stylish pens out there. Since it only takes half a blank to make, I can cut my materials costs in half..and of course, it's a snap to create and assemble.
But alas...the Sierras have not done well for me so far. Granted, I've only been marketing them for the last 9-12 months, but there are enough other pens selling that it makes me scratch my head.
I would like to hear what other's responses are to this....
byounghusband
Member
I really think a Sierra has to be of spectacular wood to really stand out. Either that, or a laser cut kit from Kallenshaan Woods. I have sold a number of Buckeye Burl and Canadian Flag Sierras. They are less work and sell for close to the same as a Baron to my customers....
Mikey
Member
Girls really like them. If you are showing them to guys you will be wasting your time. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Texatdurango
Member
I'm no big time seller by any means but in the past two months I have sold half a dozen and when offering pens to friends, at least half a dozen more chose the Sierras over whatever else I showed them.
To put things into perspective, I have two 48 pen leather cases that I show folks and they contain Sierras, Atlas/Polaris, Jr Gentlemen/Statesmen, Gentlemen and Statesmen rollerballs and a few Barons, Americana Rollerballs and Perfect Fit pens.
Given that assortment, the Sierras are preferred, second only to the Atlas pens.
I think it would have a lot to do with whatever else you display that is a similar "twist type".
George
To put things into perspective, I have two 48 pen leather cases that I show folks and they contain Sierras, Atlas/Polaris, Jr Gentlemen/Statesmen, Gentlemen and Statesmen rollerballs and a few Barons, Americana Rollerballs and Perfect Fit pens.
Given that assortment, the Sierras are preferred, second only to the Atlas pens.
I think it would have a lot to do with whatever else you display that is a similar "twist type".
George
angboy
Member
So what do [:X]women[:X] like? (Sorry, just couldn't resist!)
arioux
Member
Have to go with Mickey, most of my Sierra sales where to women. I would say that my two biggest seller right now are Sierra for Women and Baron for men. I made few combo of the same wood and "catch" few couples on my last show. They sell very well in acrylics too. The good part is that they are really great "eye catchers". Most of the people look directly at them (specially the better plating one before they notice the other styles. Don't know why.
Alfred
Alfred
Rudy Vey
Member
Just sold three this Monday to some colleagues. I showed them some of my latest pen productions, and next to a Statesman Jr, two Barons, I sold three Sierras. It is not long that I make them, maybe since early this year, but they sell good so far. One thing is important, and I believe it was already mentioned here, I use spectacular blanks: stabilized and dyed BEB, IBO, some superbly spalted BEB as well as Amboyna Burl.
The kits I use, and these look really nice with the before mentioned woods, are the Black Ti with either TiAu or Pt.
Funny, but they all wanted them for their wifes, but used them the next fay...
The kits I use, and these look really nice with the before mentioned woods, are the Black Ti with either TiAu or Pt.
Funny, but they all wanted them for their wifes, but used them the next fay...
huntersilver
Member
A lot of people like it because they fit so nicely in a pocket[
]
]jkirkb94
Member
I was thinking that they would appeal to women. Especially with some of the acrylics or some of the lighter woods. I know what you mean, Alfred, that some of the pens that seem to catch everyone's eye seem to be the ones that don't sell[xx(]!
Randy_
Member
Real men!![
][]galoot_loves_tools
Member
I have turned a few. One thing I have noticed is plating failure on the black titanium/gold version (Wallstreet II from Woodcraft, same as Berea Sierra II, I`m told). It looks like they plated the gold over black titanium on the nib tip, not color matched titanium oxide like other versions, and it is wearing off very rapidly, exposing the black titanium. Very disappointing since this is an expensive kit. I don`t know how widespread this is but have heard of this in one other post on the `other` pen forum.
Texatdurango
Member
The Sierra was one of the first nicer pens I made and the black/gold plated pen is what I carried and used daily. Not a month into use I noticed exactly what you described. I though it was my poor old eyes but found out that I was not alone in the finding.
They're nice pens but not worth it if the plating wears off in a month. Might as well buy the cheap $5 kit... at least they last longer before wearing!
That is why I started looking around for another nice twist style ballpoint to replace the Seirra in my collection.
George
angboy
Member
Originally posted by Randy_
<br />
Real men!![
Good answer Randy!!! (I'm not having much luck finding one...[V][V])
galoot_loves_tools
Member
That`s sad to hear because the black titanium/gold Sierra is a very attractive pen. I can`t imagine what the manufacturer (Berea?) was thinking by plating gold over that black titanium on such an expensive kit! I`m not buying another one. I have bought a couple of chrome versions and am hoping that they hold up better.
I have been carrying around a platinum Atlas (Carbara) for a few months and the plating has held up well so far.
Randy_
Member
Originally posted by angboy
<br />Real men!![
Men is plural. I thought you were looking for two??[}
][}]
Randy_
Member
Tom: I'm not exactly sure what you are saying in the first comment; but it sounds like you might have it reversed? Someone please correct me if I am wrong; but as I understand it, titanium oxide is black and titanium nitride is an approximate gold color and can have its color adjusted, chemically. Supposedly, Berea plates with titanium nitride and then replated with 24k gold to achieve a more or less permanent gold color. If the are putting 24k gold over black titanium, they have made a serious mistake. I believe I would be asking for a refund as they have not done as they advertise. Whether or not you get any satisfaction is another matter. Has anyone taken the time to contact Berea for their side of the story?? I frequently find that folks complain about problems on Internet forums; but never go to the vendor and give them a chance to make good on a problem.
As to the second comment, apparently, I miss the discussion on "ANOTHER" forum. There is really no reason not to name the forum and I, for one, would like to know who it is so I can see the other discussion of the issue. Thanks.
Texatdurango
Member
Originally posted by Randy_
<br />
Hi Randy, I don't know what forum Tom is referring to but I posted my comments on the Yahoo penturners group a month or so back and there was some discussion as to why the plating is wearing off so quickly.
I took a photo to show the wearing on my Sierra but it isn't real clear. If you look at the top zoom, it is the same pen with the pen rotated to show good gold plating. The lower zoom shiws the worn spot and in real life, looks just like the black titanium on the adjoining part. If by chance you are coming to the Bubbasville gathering next weekend in Hurst, I'll bring the pen so you can see where the gold is wearing off, showing black
<br />.
As far as complaining to the vendor, I doubt that would get me anywhere, probably just a lot of grief!
George
M
Mudder
Guest
I cannot speak in direct relations to pen plating but we get tools coated with Titanium Nitride and they appear as if they are gold plated
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_nitride
We also get tools coated in "Black Ti" and that process is called Titanium Carbo Nitride Coating (TiCN)
Look at the bottom section of the wikipedia link above.
I believe that the Black ti and platinum sierra is actually Titanium Aluminum Nitride (TiAN) because it sure looks suspiciously similar to a part that we have TiAN coated for a customer.
I think that Titanium Oxide and Titanium Dioxide are pure white and are used as a pigment in paints and such.
http://www.toho-titanium.co.jp/en/products/tio2.html
angboy
Member
Originally posted by Randy_
<br />Originally posted by angboy
<br />Real men!![
Men is plural. I thought you were looking for two??[}
Oh, that's right! Now I'll have to redouble my efforts since this means that right now I'm twice as much NOT successful! [
!][!]
Randy_
Member
Thanks for the information and the picture, George!!
As to your comment above, you may be correct; but you never know until you try. And even if they don't do anything for you, maybe they will look into the problem and do something so others won't suffer the same difficulty.
Since Berea is the original source of this kit, maybe they would be the ones to talk to even if you got it from a reseller originally. 1-877-736-5487
Randy_
Member
Originally posted by angboy
<br />.....Oh, that's right! Now I'll have to redouble my efforts since this means that right now I'm twice as much NOT successful! [
I saw a T-Shirt that said something to the effect that women had to work twice as hard to achieve the same "rewards." I guess you are proving the point!!
Randy_
Member
Scott: Since I wrote the prior comments, I have done some more research, myself and am convinced that the answer is a little more complicated than I thought. I have already seen the web sites that you mentioned and several others as well.
For a start, this is what Berea says about their black titanium plating. "This is a <b>titanium oxide</b> molecularly bonded(PVD) It is unbelievably hard and durable. It will last for many years.â€
I have found some reference to TiCN and TiAN but the pictures and text suggest this stuff varies in color from purple to dark gray. I also found reference to a trademarked process called Black-Ti that is associated with the jewelry business and is used to make black titanium rings…..maybe BruceB can help us out; but have not been able to link this process to TiCN and TiAN.
I agree with your comment that titanium dioxide is a white pigment; but I have not been able to discover anything about TiO.
It is clear that we need a little more information on plating to understand titanium plating. It is also clear that plating 24k gold over a black substrate is lunacy. You would be better off plating it over brass……seems like it would take longer for scratches to show up that way.
galoot_loves_tools
Member
Originally posted by Texatdurango
<br />Originally posted by Randy_
<br />
Hi Randy, I don't know what forum Tom is referring to but I posted my comments on the Yahoo penturners group a month or so back and there was some discussion as to why the plating is wearing off so quickly.
I took a photo to show the wearing on my Sierra but it isn't real clear. If you look at the top zoom, it is the same pen with the pen rotated to show good gold plating. The lower zoom shiws the worn spot and in real life, looks just like the black titanium on the adjoining part. If by chance you are coming to the Bubbasville gathering next weekend in Hurst, I'll bring the pen so you can see where the gold is wearing off, showing black
<br />.
As far as complaining to the vendor, I doubt that would get me anywhere, probably just a lot of grief!
George
OK, this is exactly what I`m seeing too. I used the term `titanium oxide` for the base plating because this is what Berea says in their online literature for describing the so-called gold-titanium plating process.
I have to get the pen away from my wife, lol, and take it into the Woodcraft where I bought the kit and register a complaint. The pen is a Wallstreet II but I have read many times in this forum and on the Yahoo penturner`s group that Woodcraft sources these kits from Berea.
My personal pen at the moment is a gold-Ti Euro (7mm) from a Berea kit that I bought from Bear Tooth Woods. I have used it hard for several weeks and not seen any loss of plating whereas my wife`s Wallstreet II gold-black Ti pen lives in front of her computer, is not carried around in a, um, sweaty shirt pocket like mine (i.e. has BARELY been used) and is showing the loss of plating like George shows above. What looks like black-Ti is showing through. Apparently, the gold was not plated over a color-matched titanium base. I don`t know whether this was a deliberate manufacturing choice or a mistake but this is an expensive kit as kits go. As I said before, this kit makes a very attractive pen but with that type of premature wear on the nib, no more for me.
Hey, can anyone tell me how well the jet black (powder coated?) portion of a regular Sierra nib holds up under use? I have a couple of chrome Sierra kits that I want to try and they have this coating on the nib.
leehljp
Member Liaison
Originally posted by galoot_loves_tools
<br />Originally posted by Texatdurango
<br />Originally posted by Randy_
<br /><br />.
My first TI Gold had the same problem. Even as new, it showed what looked like wear on one side. This pen was purchased last summer and I just got around to make the pen a couple of months ago. My current TI Black/Gold Sierras have been purchased in the last couple of months and look OK.
Randy_
Member
When you guys use quotes, you need to get in the habit of cleaning them up and only showing the needed portion. For example, there is no need to keep repeating the same picture multiple times. It just wastes computer resources or so I am told.
<br />
leehljp
Member Liaison
Originally posted by Randy_
<br />When you guys use quotes, you need to get in the habit of cleaning them up and only showing the needed portion. For example, there is no need to keep repeating the same picture multiple times. It just wastes computer resources or so I am told.<br />
Randy,
In my post above, I should have included "just like the picture above". It was my direct intention of identifying my problem with precisely the same as the picture, including the red lines. I did edit out the quotes on purpose. I almost posted this same thread several weeks ago but could not get the pictures to show the differences in color as is between the top vs bottom pict of the nib. I most certainly could have photoshoped it but didn't want to "cheat".
I know to edit and how, but the inclusion by me in my post was intentional. [
]I will hold back in the future. [
]
M
Mudder
Guest
Yes Randy, the answers are more complicated and I think you need to keep digging.
Black Ti is a trademark name for Titanium Carbo Nitride Coating (TiCN) and I know this for a fact. The term "oxide" can be loosely applied to anything with an oxygen molecule, the plating industry mis-uses this word repeatedly. I also know that TiAN can be controlled in the color range by the amount of voltage and/or amperage that it is plated with. Secondly PVD or physical vapor deposition is a very common way to plate TiN, TiAN and TiCN and it's hardly new or earthshaking, although it sure does sound good in a sales pitch. Perhaps you should read the link I posted again as it's in there. I'm speaking from 12+ years of real world experience, working with dozens of plating companies coating our cutting tools and our customer parts , not a few minutes research on the internet.
There is also a debate over two aluminun conversion processes called Iridite and Alodine, they are essentially the same process that are trademarked by different companies. Both meet MIL-C-5541. I use this to illustrate my point that two or more companies can come up with essentially the same process with one or two minor differences that do not affect the final outcome and call the process whatever they please.
I do agree with Randy that plating gold over black would not be a smart idea, however plating gold over Titanium Nitride is also not a smart thing to do because it would be next to impossible to get what the industry refers to as a "bond".
What you have to realize it that the company wants to sell their pen kits and they will use creative advertising to do it. I think it would be much less exciting if they had said that our new pens are using coatings that have been around for years.
One last thought, I recently purchased 2 black ti and platinum kits that appear to have a clear lacquer type coating on them.....
Also, the pen that woodcraft sells has a plating called "Woodcraft gold"??? Gee, I wonder what that is?
http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5435
Rudy Vey
Member
Quote:
"There is also a debate over two aluminun conversion processes called Iridite and Alodine, they are essentially the same process that are trademarked by different companies. Both meet MIL-C-5541."
Both these names refer to chromating processes for Aluminum, and have nothing to do with the platings we discussed here (Titanium Nitride and else). Iridite is a tradename belonging to MacDermid and Alodine belongs to Henkel Surface Technologies. My company also has similar processes, but these type of coatings are not to be used on such parts we use for pen kits (and they are not made of Aluminum anyways). I can, however, imagine that someone makes a nice Al pen and have it then chromated and clear powder coated. The coating alone does not long withstand daily handling and being created from a hexavalent Chrome containing bath, I would like to see someone use it and maybe putting it into its mouth....
"There is also a debate over two aluminun conversion processes called Iridite and Alodine, they are essentially the same process that are trademarked by different companies. Both meet MIL-C-5541."
Both these names refer to chromating processes for Aluminum, and have nothing to do with the platings we discussed here (Titanium Nitride and else). Iridite is a tradename belonging to MacDermid and Alodine belongs to Henkel Surface Technologies. My company also has similar processes, but these type of coatings are not to be used on such parts we use for pen kits (and they are not made of Aluminum anyways). I can, however, imagine that someone makes a nice Al pen and have it then chromated and clear powder coated. The coating alone does not long withstand daily handling and being created from a hexavalent Chrome containing bath, I would like to see someone use it and maybe putting it into its mouth....
M
Mudder
Guest
I use this to illustrate my point that two or more companies can come up with essentially the same process with one or two minor differences that do not affect the final outcome and call the process whatever they please.
What part of this did you not understand Rudy? I'm fully aware of what the process is and what it is used for.
Rudy Vey
Member
You as well as I do understand the differences of these two (and many other companies) processes, but I was just trying to make the rest of the readers here aware that these processes have nothing to do of what we are talking about (TiN and other PVD and CVD coatings). In no way was I trying to p... you off.
jrc
Member
I only make the sierra's in chrome, the plating is much better. I sell a few hundred of them a year. Mostly corporate orders.
galoot_loves_tools
Member
Thanks for the info! Although they aren`t as pretty, the chrome kits are a lot less expensive than the gold-black Ti kits.
How well does the black powder-coated portion of the nib hold up? Does anyone know?
Texatdurango
Member
Randy, Thanks for suggesting that I contact the vendor. In this day and age where getting satisfaction is harder and harder, I had just decided to chock this up to experience but yesterday I thought... what the heck and sent the vendor an email.
I got a reply this morning that this pen isn't gauranteed by the manufacturer but that the he (the vendor) would replace the kit since I have experienced this problem.
I was suprised at the offer but really shouldn't have been since I have heard nothing but good accalaids from the vendor on this and other forums.
Bottom line, I will continue buying Sierra kits since they are popular, but no more of the high dollar platings for me.
George
mrcook4570
Member
Sierras are my most popular ballpoint for both men and women. Its size and weight appeal to both. I have not had any complaints about the gold titanium plating wearing off the black titanium plating, but I do not carry one myself. However, I have had several gold titanium platings (other kits) show signs of what appeared to be wear. A trip to the buffer revealed that it was only tarnish and the gold color was restored. Perhaps this may be the case with the sierras?
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