Shrinkage

[bonefish]

Does anyone ever have the wood shrink after the pen is finished, causing the wood to be smaller than the metal parts?

Here is the problem. From looking at many of the penmakers supply catalogs, it is difficult, if not imposible, to determine if the wood has been properly dried, either kiln dried or air dried, or even dried at all.

I use stabilized wood for most of my pens. It is more expensive, but it does seem to be less likely to shrink or expand.

I don't believe there is a finish available that will completely seal wood good enough to protect it from atmospheric conditions.

Maybe encapsulating it in epoxy or PR will do the trick, but if air can get to the wood, it is going to either swell or shrink. How much depends on how dry the wood was to begin with, and the humidity at the location where the wood will be used.

Does anyone have any problem with untreated wood blanks shrinking when blanks are purchased from pen maker suppliers or blanks that you have cut yourselves? By untreated, I mean unstabilized.

There has even been some confusion on what is considered stabilazition.

In my opinion, stabilized wood is wood that has been impregnated, either in a vacuum or under pressure with some type of resin to fill the pores and force the moisture out.

This type wood is available from pen material suppliers, and is referred to as stabilized wood. Some desirable wood can't be stabilized and I think that if it is used green, it will shrink or crack when it dries out.

I have seen references to wood that has had some type of finish applied to it and called stabilized, but it is not. I have also seen wood that has been dried referred to as stabilized, but it isn't stabilized, either, not in the sense penmakers refer to stabilized wood.

Either might be more stabilized than green or unfinished wood, but it is not the same as what is advertised as stabilized wood.

I recently purchased some BOW which was listed in the stabilized wood section. It wasn't stabilized, not in the sense that it was resin impregnated. It might have been klin dried or air dried, which could be referred to as stabilized, but this is not the type of stabilizing I am referering to, and it shrunk after about two weeks.

Dymondwood is another wood product that is advertised as stable and impervious to moisture, but it isn't. It will shrink, too, although not as much as untreated or unfinished wood.

This is a subject I have been wondering about, and I would like to hear about other penmakers and woodworkers experiences with wood in which the moisture content is unknown.

Bonefish

 

[ilikewood]

Discussed this a few weeks ago. Check out the link.

http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15757

 

[kf4knf]

I havent made THAT many pens yet but havent had a problem. I live in a dry climate so I am not sure if that effects it or not.

Dont you think this is worrying a bit much. I dont see it a problem unless the pen is mistreated or left in the wrong enviroment. Just MHO. []

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by kf4knf
<br />
Dont you think this is worrying a bit much. I dont see it a problem unless the pen is mistreated or left in the wrong enviroment. Just MHO. []

For unstabilized blanks and for oil finished or hand rubbed wood, the wood will expand and contract with humidity and temperature changes quite a bit. The minute differences that occur on a pen might not be noticed on a table or a chair, but 1/128 inch difference is very noticable on a fine pen when gripping the joint of the wood and nib or even at the centerband. And some woods can expand contract that much when finished with a good hand rub, oil finish or even lacquer/urethanes. It does still move when stabilized but not nearly as much.

If one lives in a relatively dry climate year round, this will not be as noticable; but in climates with varying changes, it can be very noticable - and more so with certain woods.

 

[bonefish]

I agree with Hank.

If I made a pen from green wood here in humid Georgia and sold it to someone in Arizona, someone who carried it in their pocket outside or left it in their car, the odds are good that the wood would shrink.

A few years ago, I used buffalo horn on a knife handle. The person took the knife to Arizona for about a month, leaving it on the console of his car the entire time. When he returned, the horn had shrunk about 1/4 inch away from the guard.

He also had an $18,000 shotgun with a very fancy piece of French walnut. He also had the shotgun with him, and the stock shrunk so much that the stock bolt would not tighten it.

This is an example of use and not abuse. It is what you can expect depending on where you use it.

Bondfish

 

[Draken]

I know there's a cold water joke in here somewhere, gotta keep looking... [][}][]

Cheers,
Draken

 

[Rifleman1776]

I don't believe any one answer can cover this topic, especially when someone (you) lives in a very dry climate. Having problems with Dymondwood doesn't surprise me. I don't believe the problem there is climate related. IMHO, the problem is with the product. I had a very nice Dymondwood duck call come apart months after turning. And this stuff is supposed to be moisture resistant. I won't use it again, ever. My suggestion is to buy local woods. Desert ironwoods, mesquite, etc. are beautiful. And try to buy a supply of blanks well in advance of when you intend to turn to allow them to aclimate. And/or zap in microwave before turning.

 

[ed4copies]

One observation, and not to be argumentative.

"Diamondwood" is a trade-name that has come to be "Frigidaire" or "Xerox" (god forbid) of the laminated woods. In my experience, I have TRIED a lot of laminates, "Diamondwood" has stood up quite well. "Colorwood" and other "look alikes" have NOT fared as well.

Just hoping to clarify, because "Diamondwood" sells well and, to date, has not come back to revisit me!!!

 

[johnson]

Living in Minnesota where the temp can change 50 degrees overnight, I can honestly say that the most shrinkage problems have come from swimming in cold lakes....Pens I haven't noticed any changes on but most of my wood has been stored for two years befor I use it.
Dale

 

[dfurlano]

Personally I don't believe this is a real issue. But if you were so inclined take several pens and make a measuring jig using a dial indicator and measure the pens. Then put them into an over and heat it in increments of 10 degrees to about 120 and measure again.

I would do it two or three times to make sure there is some consistency and your not just losing water.

Theres you answer.

 

[rpasto92]

If you make pens from green wood you should expect them to shrink and crack over time. If you make anything out of green wood, over time it will warp/twist/crack/shrink.

Originally posted by bonefish
<br />I agree with Hank.

If I made a pen from green wood here in humid Georgia and sold it to someone in Arizona, ...

In my book leaving anything made from a natural product in your care IS abuse.

Originally posted by bonefish
...about a month, leaving it on the console of his car the entire time. When he returned, the horn had shrunk about 1/4 inch away from the guard.

...This is an example of use and not abuse. It is what you can expect depending on where you use it.

Bondfish

 

[RussFairfield]

Yes, wood will grow and shrink from humidity and temperature changes after it is turned, and some wood will move more than others. The ultimate movement is when the wood shrinks enough to crack, or expands enough to cause hairline cracks in the finish.

Whether wood movement is an issue or not will depend on where we live (climate), how fussy we are, the wood we use, the pen design, and the quality we want to achieve. Those who believe it is not an issue have never had an Ebony or Snakewood pen open up with a 1/16" wide crack because the wood shrank, or discovered the hard way that Zebra can shrink in the end grain direction. I solve the problems by staying away from wood species that can cause problems.

We have to recognize that it is wood, and that it will move. The only solution is to being sensitive to changes in humidity is to make our pens from plastic or stabilized wood (plastic). The plastics will still expend and contract with temperature changes, but not enough for most of us to notice.

In the end, the most important thing is whether the customer or user of our pen can tell the difference. Most of them cannot unless the wood movement is in the extreme, and they discover a crack in their pen.

 

[leehljp]

I would have to disagree with this not being a real issue.
Straight cuts, X cuts and endcuts (or crosscuts as I call it) vary tremendously in their expansion and contraction.
A 5 inch long (fresh cut) red oak with X cut or end cut 5 inches long, when air dried to 14% will lose shrink about 3/16 inch in length. When dried to 7% humidity, it will shrink to about 5/16 inch. When kiln dried it will shrink even more. I do not have the figures before me on this but I think it will shrink about 3/8 inch total.
(Taken from "Understanding Wood" by Hoadley)

Length wise, the shrinkage is not as noticable through the humidity ranges on most woods. Not everyone here uses kiln dried or stabilized blanks. Many do use X Cuts and end grain cuts for the visual effects of the cuts and grain. When these cuts in most woods are not stabilized or kiln dried, and then not finished with a stabilizer like CA, then the potential for expansion is great in humid climates. You can live in Phoenix and not have a problem, but if you travel to Memphis, Atlanta, or Orlando and stay a couple of weeks, the oil finished and waxed pen will show some expansion problems.

<b>EVER WONDER WHY THE WOODEN HANDLE on a HAMMER GETS LOOSE? </b>Here is the reason (No it is not in Snopes) -
The humidity changes over a few seasons causes the handle inside the hammer head to contract and expand. When the wood is placed in tightly, and the humidity increases (actually the increase and decrease of humidity over several seasons) the wood is restrained from expanding any further. However, mother nature will not be outdone. As it continues to swell minutely, but limited by the hammer chamber that it is in, the outer cells are literally crushed. When this takes place over a few seasons, we pick up the hammer that was tight last year and find that the handle is loose now. The technical term is "expansion compression" and "compression failure".

Back to shrinkage: I will post a picture of the shrinkage rates and use red oak as the sample.

Below is a scanned photo set from page 118 of Hoadley"s book mentioned above. It will give you a good idea of how much wood can shrink and contract, depending on the cut and species. All of these board started out at 10 inches wide.

Mahogany, redwood, northern white cedar, catalpa, mesquite, teak and a few others are quite stable. Hickory, oak, sweetgum, beech, some maples are more prone to the shrinkage/expansion.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by ed4copies
<br />One observation, and not to be argumentative.

"Diamondwood" is a trade-name that has come to be "Frigidaire" or "Xerox" (god forbid) of the laminated woods. In my experience, I have TRIED a lot of laminates, "Diamondwood" has stood up quite well. "Colorwood" and other "look alikes" have NOT fared as well.

Just hoping to clarify, because "Diamondwood" sells well and, to date, has not come back to revisit me!!!

Since I haven't purchased or used in a couple years, I got the name wrong and spelled with a 'y'. My last (and I do mean 'last') experience with Diamondwood was a duck call that I made and put into the plastic tote I use to store between shows. It was never handled or exposed to elements. When I took it out several of the laminations had separated. Glad you have been lucky. Never again for me.

 

[dfurlano]

Then I guess nothing can be made from wood. To bad, I liked wood.

 

[rpasto92]

You have just proved my point that you should not be making pens out of wet wood. Thank you.

Originally posted by leehljp
<br />I would have to disagree with this not being a real issue.
Straight cuts, X cuts and endcuts (or crosscuts as I call it) vary tremendously in their expansion and contraction.
A 5 inch long (fresh cut) red oak with X cut or end cut 5 inches long, when air dried to 14% will lose shrink about 3/16 inch in length. When dried to 7% humidity, it will shrink to about 5/16 inch. When kiln dried it will shrink even more. I do not have the figures before me on this but I think it will shrink about 3/8 inch total.
(Taken from "Understanding Wood" by Hoadley)

Length wise, the shrinkage is not as noticable through the humidity ranges on most woods. Not everyone here uses kiln dried or stabilized blanks. Many do use X Cuts and end grain cuts for the visual effects of the cuts and grain. When these cuts in most woods are not stabilized or kiln dried, and then not finished with a stabilizer like CA, then the potential for expansion is great in humid climates. You can live in Phoenix and not have a problem, but if you travel to Memphis, Atlanta, or Orlando and stay a couple of weeks, the oil finished and waxed pen will show some expansion problems.

<b>EVER WONDER WHY THE WOODEN HANDLE on a HAMMER GETS LOOSE? </b>Here is the reason (No it is not in Snopes) -
The humidity changes over a few seasons causes the handle inside the hammer head to contract and expand. When the wood is placed in tightly, and the humidity increases (actually the increase and decrease of humidity over several seasons) the wood is restrained from expanding any further. However, mother nature will not be outdone. As it continues to swell minutely, but limited by the hammer chamber that it is in, the outer cells are literally crushed. When this takes place over a few seasons, we pick up the hammer that was tight last year and find that the handle is loose now. The technical term is "expansion compression" and "compression failure".

Back to shrinkage: I will post a picture of the shrinkage rates and use red oak as the sample.

Below is a scanned photo set from page 118 of Hoadley"s book mentioned above. It will give you a good idea of how much wood can shrink and contract, depending on the cut and species. All of these board started out at 10 inches wide.

Mahogany, redwood, northern white cedar, catalpa, mesquite, teak and a few others are quite stable. Hickory, oak, sweetgum, beech, some maples are more prone to the shrinkage/expansion.

 

[leehljp]

Originally posted by rpasto92
<br />You have just proved my point that you should not be making pens out of wet wood. Thank you.

One often overlooked points in wood movement is the hammer problem. Wood handles from manufacturers are usually kiln (oven) dried to begin with. But that does not stop them from expanding and contracting.

Even 2 and 3 year air dryed wood will contract and expand. When used lengthwise, there is not much problem except a very few specific woods. On snakewood, and the ones mentioned above, while the length will not change, the diameter movement will or can. With X cut or end cut also - there still can be a movement difference over its length on the pen between air dryed and kiln/oven dried. It is best to stabilize those that move and are less forgiving to movement.

Whoever started stabilizing wood knew his wood well.

OH, one other thing: Guess what the best moisture barrier for sealing wood/green wood is. <b>DIPPING In WAX.</b> (Taken from "Understanding Wood".)