Sharpening Dilemma

[Tage]

First some background info....My son & I have been turning pens for two years. Generally no problem sharpening or turning acrylics until recently. Over the past 2 - 3 months we've been getting a lot of blow outs with acrylics. I really think it's my sharpening. In terms of skill, I know I'm lacking, and in terms of equipment, what we're using is inferior.

The chisels I am sharpening are HSS BB penturning set and HF full size set. The sharpening setup is a HF 6" dry / 8" wet bench grinder. I hardly use the wet wheel as it has not tool platform. The 6" wheel is, presumably the one that came with the grinder (inherited from my father). I have basically sharpened the BB penturners roughing gouge down to a nub in the past two years. I'm sure the wheel is much too aggressive. The tool platform on the grinder is pathetic and I don't get a consistent and sharp bevel on my tools. Really, the fun has gone out of turning now, because we are constantly anticipating losing blanks to blowouts. I need to remedy the situation.

My plan is to definitely buy the Oneway Wolverine Sharpening System (v-holder and platform).

My questions are:
1) Can I stay with the HF grinder and upgrade the wheel to a Norton 3x 80 grit?
2) If I absolutely have to, I am thinking of buying the Delta 23-199 variable speed 8" grinder. Any experience with this?
3) I would change to Norton wheels for the 8" grinder. Are 80 and 120 grit appropriate?

I really need to learn to sharpen and get a proper setup as we are both getting frustrated. I appreciate any input.

Thanks.

My problems, as I see them is we get a lot of chatter and catches on acrylics. Again, more in the past 2 - 3 months

 

[lucky13]

If you are looking at getting a new grinder, I recommend this one from wood craft, Buy 8in Slow Speed Grinder at Woodcraft, it comes with the correct grinding wheels already attached so you do not have to buy new wheels. I just picked it up a couple of weeks ago and really love it. It is worth every penny.

 

[jttheclockman]

You have to learn to sharpen your tools. It is a must if you are going to stay in the hobby. I know nothing about that grinder. The speed should be slow around 1750. You need this because once again heat is your enemy. Seems we say this an awful lot in this hobby but it is true. I think the other grinder you mentioned is VS.

I suggest and most good turners will tell you an 8" wheel is much better than a 6" because you will put a concave grind moreso with a 6 than an 8 because of the smaller diameter wheel. You want friable wheels which come in white or blue depending on the company. You need 120 grit for basic sharpening. 80 grit is when you want to reshape the grind on a tool. Remember the lower the grit the more metal you take off. Alot of times if you get that perfect grind and perfect angle to a tool all you need to do is hit it with a diamond stone a couple passes and you are right back to business. I recomend getting one. You never want to take alot of metal off. The hotter you get the tool the greater chance you have of taking the temper out of it.

I highly suggest you take a look at the ton of videos there on utube. They can show you better than anyone can explain it.

One other thing a good platform is more crucial than a jig to sharpen tools. Set the platform to the angle of the tool and do it free hand making sure to keep the tool flat on the platform. Those jigs are good for gouges and tools that need that rounded edge. I never use it on my skew. That is one of the best tools to learn to use. It pays off more than you can imagine especially in pen turning. You have been around turning as you said you should know this stuff.

As far as blowouts go it could be 1000 different things. Your technique may have changed and you do not realize it. There are videos here in the library and also on utube that show how to turn acrylics properly. Again the skew is your friend. Get rid of all those other tools for pen turning please. When you suspect your grinding technique you could be right there also. You may have increased the angle on the tools so severe it does not function as it once did. Read some of the past posts here about blowouts when turning acrylics and maybe you will pick up pointers. But I highly suggest utube.

Good luck and all is not lost.

 

[walshjp17]

+1 on the Woodcraft slow-speed grinder. 8" wheel is much better than 6" as JohnT. has noted.

 

[JohnGreco]

Another option would be to use a carbide tool with replaceable tips. Sharpening was something I always dreaded, mostly because of the sheer time-sink I felt it was for me. That seemed to lead to me to using tools that should have been sharpened 2 or 3 pens ago, and you know dull tools create danger.

I switched to a woodchuck pen pro and haven't regretted it once. I still keep a skew handy, but by and large my productivity has really benefited.

 

[Rodnall]

I am fairly new to acrylics, but Craft supplies sends instructions with their blanks. They recommend a scraper with a small bevel ground on the topside of the tool. Or a skew chisel flat on it's side with the handle raised to prevent the tools from being too aggressive. It has worked for me.

 

[randyrls]

ols. Really, the fun has gone out of turning now, because we are constantly anticipating losing blanks to blowouts. I need to remedy the situation.

For acrylic blanks, take a look at carbide tipped tools sold by Joebill1 on Ebay. You can hone the carbide tip(s) with a credit card diamond hone easily.

My plan is to definitely buy the Oneway Wolverine Sharpening System (v-holder and platform).

This is a good set up. If you get this, take a sticky backed ruler and stick it to the side of the bar opposite the locking handle. Write the ruler measurement on the metal part of the tool and you can go back to it the next time you need to sharpen.

My questions are:
1) Can I stay with the HF grinder and upgrade the wheel to a Norton 3x 80 grit?

My problems, as I see them is we get a lot of chatter and catches on acrylics. Again, more in the past 2 - 3 months

Sharp tools allow you to cut without pushing hard on the material. When you have a blowout, examine the pieces. Is the glue left on the brass tube, or blank? Are you scuffing the brass tubes with sandpaper before gluing them?

 

[Rodnall]

Maybe you're getting too good at sharpening and being too aggressive with your chisel!

 

[plano_harry]

If you are laying your gouge flat on the rest and using it as a scraper, it can create a lot of impact stress when rounding a blank. A skew reduces those corner impacts that can fracture brittle acrylics.

My favorite tool for acrylics is a carbide tool held on a 45 degree angle so I am shearing the material off with less impact and I don't have to spend a lot of money and time on sharpening systems and fixtures.

Another possibility is you might be drilling too fast, or now have dull bits that could be causing internal cracks that you don't see until you hit them. I have ruined a few acrylics on the drill press.

Harry

Harry

 

[butchf18a]

For far less $$ than grinders and jigs, oh yes I have them too. But then I bought a carbide tool and now my hss and sharpening paraphenalia are mostly obsolete. With carbide tool you can rough turn, fine tune, then sand and finish. Use mie on acrylics, trustone, whole wood blanks, segmented blanks, blanks accented with aluminum and brass.

Don't toss out your other tools, but you will use them a whole lot less.

 

[Alzey]

+1 on the woodcraft grinder.

I use the same tools sets you mentioned. I no longer use the BB tools as they are now too short from over grinding. I sharpen everything but my skew in the grinder. I sharpen the skew on my belt sander and with a diamond plate. My goal this year is to learn the skew.

I also built my own carbide scraper. They work very well.

Check out Captain Eddie on YouTube. He has some good sharpening videos.

 

[mikespenturningz]

If I was only going to have one turning tool it would be the skew. Once you learn to use it you will find that removing material is fast and easy. I only sharpen my skew on a diamond hone. Mine has a rough side and a smooth side. I can make material just peel off with little effort and the finish is just great. Learn to use a skew and really get it sharp and you will stop breaking your blanks. We all learn this the hard way.

 

[Davej_07]

I was in the same boat as you not too long ago. The HF wet/dry grinder sounds good but it's not practical for our uses. The arbor size on the wheels is a bastard size so standard wheels will not fit it. The wet wheel was so out of true that it did me no good whatsoever. Save your shekels and get a decent grinder. I bought my wolverine sharpening system off eBay for 50.00. That included the platform, v-arm, gouge jig, and wheel dressing tool. By far the BEST investment I've ever made.

Dave

 

[jttheclockman]

ols. Really, the fun has gone out of turning now, because we are constantly anticipating losing blanks to blowouts. I need to remedy the situation.

For acrylic blanks, take a look at carbide tipped tools sold by Joebill1 on Ebay. You can hone the carbide tip(s) with a credit card diamond hone easily.

My plan is to definitely buy the Oneway Wolverine Sharpening System (v-holder and platform).

This is a good set up. If you get this, take a sticky backed ruler and stick it to the side of the bar opposite the locking handle. Write the ruler measurement on the metal part of the tool and you can go back to it the next time you need to sharpen.

My questions are:
1) Can I stay with the HF grinder and upgrade the wheel to a Norton 3x 80 grit?

My problems, as I see them is we get a lot of chatter and catches on acrylics. Again, more in the past 2 - 3 months

Sharp tools allow you to cut without pushing hard on the material. When you have a blowout, examine the pieces. Is the glue left on the brass tube, or blank? Are you scuffing the brass tubes with sandpaper before gluing them?

If I am understanding what the OP is saying.
I would be very careful using this method. Every time you grind you take material off the tool. If you go back to the same setup the next time the tool is now lower in the jig and is presented to the grinder at a steeper angle. It is slight and probably not noticable but that is what is happening. Now the angle of cutting is changing ever so slightly each time. You will go through a tool very quickly like this.

What I do is lay the tool in the jig and rest the cutting edge against the wheel and from the side lower or raise the tool jig so that there is no light between the wheel and the tool. Tighten the jig. Take a very light pass on the tool and look at the high and low spots of the cut. If it mathces the grind I am golden. If not i adjust accordingly.

All this is subject to just my opinion

 

[Tage]

Good advice from all and definitely appreciated. I like the looks of that Woodcraft grinder and the price is more palatable. Wish I had a store near me!

I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew).

I have a carbide scraper that I've used for some TruStone, but not much more. I'll have to pull it out more. It's a homemade one given to me by a member here. I'll have to get some replacement tips. In general, how often do these need to be replaced? Can a carbide blade be sharpened?

I guess I've been overwhelmed by sharpening. I've found that, like turning, there are as many opinions and methods and YouTubes as there are turners. While I was able to settle pretty quickly on turning and finishing methods that suited me, I haven't done so with sharpening. Just another skill to master. I think I'm getting closer to that and appreciate everyone's input.

 

[darthintel]

I use the round carbide woodchuck pen pro ....and when it seems dull after rotating all the way around, I remove it from the handle, turn it upside down hold it flat on a diamond stone and clean it up ...works for me ...sharp edge again.

 

[jttheclockman]

Good advice from all and definitely appreciated. I like the looks of that Woodcraft grinder and the price is more palatable. Wish I had a store near me!

I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew).

I have a carbide scraper that I've used for some TruStone, but not much more. I'll have to pull it out more. It's a homemade one given to me by a member here. I'll have to get some replacement tips. In general, how often do these need to be replaced? Can a carbide blade be sharpened?

I guess I've been overwhelmed by sharpening. I've found that, like turning, there are as many opinions and methods and YouTubes as there are turners. While I was able to settle pretty quickly on turning and finishing methods that suited me, I haven't done so with sharpening. Just another skill to master. I think I'm getting closer to that and appreciate everyone's input.

A carbide tip gets rotated or replaced when it gets dull:wink: There is no way anyone here can tell you when that is. We do not know your turning abilities, materials you use, or your tool storage habits. You can nick a blade just by setting it down in a wrong place. Yes they can be sharpened with a diamond stone. You really need to get a good one. CSUSA has some nice ones.

Yes sharpening tools is a must learn part of this hobby. Carbide is not the cure all answer to turning as you read here. You will get a sharper edge on a HSS tool any day of the week. Both have thier place but give me a sharp skew any day. I use carbide alot when I turn metals because they stay sharper longer but will always finish with a skew. No sanding needed.

It is not the shape of the skew that will give you trouble but the shape of the cutting edge. I like to put a very slight curve in the edge. You cut with the sweet spot of a skew and that is just a small portion of the blade. If you have the cutting edge straight across you run the rishk of catches alot more so because the very tips can dig into the material. With a flat skew, take a file and round over the 4 edges of the bar. This way it will not dig into the tool rest. With an oval skew this is great for doing round over work because it is easier to roll the skew as you are cutting. In pen making unless you are making beads of some sort really not needed. Now the quality of the tool is important also. HF is cheap for a reason as opposed to the better brands out there. Not saying they won't do the job but it will be more frustrating.

Again this is only my opinion I have to keep stressing this because I have been picked apart here before.

 

[mikespenturningz]

I rounded the edges on my skew for just that problem John T. I have to say that if you are turning pens you can almost get away with a skew and a parting tool as your only tools. If your skew is nice and sharp it will effortlessly cut away almost any blank that I have done. I have not done any truestone so you will have to let me off the hook for that one. All you really need to keep a skew really sharp is a diamond hone especially if it is a straight edged skew. My skew is so sharp I could shave with it and that is how I keep it. I go to that hone very often and just pass over it a few times on the 300 grit side. If it needs to be freshly cleaned up I use the 150 grit side and then back to the 300 grit. I use water and a little dishwashing liquid as I read somewhere in the forums. It works great and keeps things really good you can really feel the difference.

 

[jttheclockman]

I rounded the edges on my skew for just that problem John T. I have to say that if you are turning pens you can almost get away with a skew and a parting tool as your only tools. If your skew is nice and sharp it will effortlessly cut away almost any blank that I have done. I have not done any truestone so you will have to let me off the hook for that one. All you really need to keep a skew really sharp is a diamond hone especially if it is a straight edged skew. My skew is so sharp I could shave with it and that is how I keep it. I go to that hone very often and just pass over it a few times on the 300 grit side. If it needs to be freshly cleaned up I use the 150 grit side and then back to the 300 grit. I use water and a little dishwashing liquid as I read somewhere in the forums. It works great and keeps things really good you can really feel the difference.

Mike that is the way I roll too. Just a bit of touch up and good to go. I have used the skew on truestone as well as aluminum brass and copper with no problems. Like I said though I have resorted to taking the bulk of the tougher materials down with my carbide tool and finish with the skew. I do not like a straight across cutting edge though. I think if more people would practice with the skew they would be very happy with the results. I read about all these blowups. I never had one using my skew. Anyway to each his own as they say.

 

[lucky13]

"I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew").

Look into a Spindle master, not only are they probably the easiest tool to sharpen, they are very easy to use and you get as good a cut/finish cut as a skew. My Spindle master is probably my number one go to tool after getting pen blanks round. I also use a Alan Lacer signature skew, it's probably the easiest and best cutting skew I have ever used. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[jttheclockman]

I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew).

Look into a Spindle master, not only are they probably the easiest tool to sharpen, they are very easy to use and you get as good a cut/finish cut as a skew. My Spindle master is probably my number one go to tool after getting pen blanks round. I also use a Alan Lacer signature skew, it's probably the easiest and best cutting skew I have ever used. Just my 2 cents worth.

You chose yellow??????????????? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[mikespenturningz]

I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew).

Look into a Spindle master, not only are they probably the easiest tool to sharpen, they are very easy to use and you get as good a cut/finish cut as a skew. My Spindle master is probably my number one go to tool after getting pen blanks round. I also use a Alan Lacer signature skew, it's probably the easiest and best cutting skew I have ever used. Just my 2 cents worth.

You chose yellow??????????????? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Highlight it so you can read it....

 

[jttheclockman]

I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew).

Look into a Spindle master, not only are they probably the easiest tool to sharpen, they are very easy to use and you get as good a cut/finish cut as a skew. My Spindle master is probably my number one go to tool after getting pen blanks round. I also use a Alan Lacer signature skew, it's probably the easiest and best cutting skew I have ever used. Just my 2 cents worth.

You chose yellow??????????????? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Highlight it so you can read it....

That worked out well:biggrin:

 

[76winger]

...
The chisels I am sharpening are HSS BB penturning set and HF full size set. The sharpening setup is a HF 6" dry / 8" wet bench grinder. I hardly use the wet wheel as it has not tool platform. The 6" wheel is, presumably the one that came with the grinder (inherited from my father). I have basically sharpened the BB penturners roughing gouge down to a nub in the past two years. I'm sure the wheel is much too aggressive. The tool platform on the grinder is pathetic and I don't get a consistent and sharp bevel on my tools. Really, the fun has gone out of turning now, because we are constantly anticipating losing blanks to blowouts. I need to remedy the situation.

My plan is to definitely buy the Oneway Wolverine Sharpening System (v-holder and platform).

My questions are:
1) Can I stay with the HF grinder and upgrade the wheel to a Norton 3x 80 grit?
2) If I absolutely have to, I am thinking of buying the Delta 23-199 variable speed 8" grinder. Any experience with this?
3) I would change to Norton wheels for the 8" grinder. Are 80 and 120 grit appropriate?

I really need to learn to sharpen and get a proper setup as we are both getting frustrated. I appreciate any input.
...

Since I got Wolverine system this past winter, it's on my "recommended" list, as is a variable speed 8" grinder and 100-120 grit wheel so you can slow the speed down and stop burning up so much metal when sharpening.

For comparison, I've got a Porter Cable VS grinder, probably about the same as the Delta I imagine. I remove very little material from one sharpening to the next, especially if I'm not switching around and sharpening different tools in between. Here's mine set up for keeping the skew sharp, along with the almost-retired 6" one-speed in the background:

 

[robutacion]

All great suggestions about resolving your sharpening problems, sharpening is an art and a combination of knowledge and self ability however, many of the jigs seen today to assist with angles, etc. make the whole thing a lot less complicated, I shall admit. I have learnt to sharp any cutting edge by hand, still today I don't use jigs but, my eyes are no longer what they once were and the simple go the the grinder in touch you too up, is not as effective as once was.

Most tools are temperate so far from the tip so, there will be a time where the tools run out of good steal and will never cut well again, regardless of how attached you are to it.

Anyway, the other point I wanted to make and I read the whole thread to make sure no one has already mentioned it and that is, apart from the issue of good sharpening tools and techniques, there is one other issue that can be also contributing to the destruction of your acrylic blanks, in recent times and that is, "vibrations" and out on centre issues.

Is your mandrel straight...??? is your lathe tuned/aligned...???

It may sounds strange but, even you best cutting tool and edge will have problems with these problems, there are many reasons why a lathe get out of alignment and there a "few" reasons why a mandrel is no longer turning true so, I though in just mentioning this as something to keep also in mind...!

Good luck,
Cheers
George

 

[Tage]

Thanks again all for the advice. Definitely a skill to be learned. George, I'll check the mandrel and alignment of the lathe. I'm not having out of round problems, but a good idea to check.

 

[low_48]

Better read up on the latest batch of Woodcraft grinders. I don't know if they have the noise issue resolved yet, but they had a really bad batch from China. I wouldn't buy one right now unless you go to the store and listen to it before taking it home. Your approach is one I like. Don't care for carbide scrapers one bit!

 

[jsolie]

Good advice from all and definitely appreciated. I like the looks of that Woodcraft grinder and the price is more palatable. Wish I had a store near me!

I am really thinking it is my sharpening that is the problem and I have changed the angles of my tools. I need to pick up a decent oval skew (I've had trouble mastering the HF square skew).

Just a quick side note on those oval skews...

I picked one up recently to hopefully help me out with my paltry spindle turning skills. It did help, but I found a snag...the thing is very tricky to sharpen!

I have a WoodCraft grinder with the Wolverine jig, but not their skew attachment. I was able to sharpen the skew using the big Wolverine tool rest, but it was tricky to keep the skew from rolling on it's oval radius.

Just something to keep in mind, especially if you have trouble with grinding.

 

[Dan Masshardt]

I use a little diamond file from woodcraft for my oval skew.

 

[Tage]

Good points. I did wind up purchasing a 3/4" oval skew. What I wound up with, in all, was Woodcraft 8" slow speed grinder from eBay (even with shipping it was cheaper than at Woodcraft) -- I'm still working on setting it up. I have to true the wheels. I thought I ordered a diamond dressing tool, but think I forgot to add it to the cart so I need to order that. The Wolverine system was not in my budget, I will save for that next. Instead I purchased the Apprentice platform from CSUSA. I'll get by with it for the next few months until I can get the Wolverine jig. I also purchased a Trend credit card diamond hone for touching up. Looking forward to learning.

One more question...Any tips on correcting lateral wobble on the grinder wheels? I know I need to shim slightly, just looking for words of wisdom from those with experience. Thanks again.

 

[low_48]

Good points. I did wind up purchasing a 3/4" oval skew. What I wound up with, in all, was Woodcraft 8" slow speed grinder from eBay (even with shipping it was cheaper than at Woodcraft) -- I'm still working on setting it up. I have to true the wheels. I thought I ordered a diamond dressing tool, but think I forgot to add it to the cart so I need to order that. The Wolverine system was not in my budget, I will save for that next. Instead I purchased the Apprentice platform from CSUSA. I'll get by with it for the next few months until I can get the Wolverine jig. I also purchased a Trend credit card diamond hone for touching up. Looking forward to learning.

One more question...Any tips on correcting lateral wobble on the grinder wheels? I know I need to shim slightly, just looking for words of wisdom from those with experience. Thanks again.

For lateral correction, spin the wheel by hand, and bring a pencil up to the inside of the wheel. This marks the extreme point of the wobble. Loosen the nut, and slide a couple thicknesses of paper between the inside washer, and the inside of the grinding wheel, aligned with the pencil mark on the wheel. This will shift over that side of the wheel. Be careful to not let the wheel rotate too much while you are doing this because the washer in involved with the wobble. Snug up the nut and check again. Sometimes it may take 4 thicknesses of paper or more. Be patient, it will take some experimenting.