Rick_G
Member
I picked my second Black & Decker because my first one lasted 42 years and is still going. I picked DeWalt because my 2nd Black & Decker didn't last a year. :biggrin:
Quality vs Luxury
- Thread starter Smitty37
- Start date
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I picked my second Black & Decker because my first one lasted 42 years and is still going. I picked DeWalt because my 2nd Black & Decker didn't last a year. :biggrin:
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David M
Member
why do i feel like your talking about mt 38 year old vw , daily driver
David
Displaced Canadian
Member
First of all I don't have a Mercedes or a VW, I drive a GMC. :biggrin:
If I was asked to describe a quality pen I would talk about the kit in terms of longevity of plating and how smooth it operated. Does the trans. feel solid, do the threads feel tight when you cap it. The wood or whatever materiel you use would be how does it look. Then comes fit and finish. If you have high marks on all 3 you have a quality pen. It is true an expensive kit and blank do not by themselves make an expensive pen. To me it is more a question of durability and a good value for me and the customer.
If I was asked to describe a quality pen I would talk about the kit in terms of longevity of plating and how smooth it operated. Does the trans. feel solid, do the threads feel tight when you cap it. The wood or whatever materiel you use would be how does it look. Then comes fit and finish. If you have high marks on all 3 you have a quality pen. It is true an expensive kit and blank do not by themselves make an expensive pen. To me it is more a question of durability and a good value for me and the customer.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Dear Renowb:
Viet Nam, Desert Storm vet----
THANK-YOU!!!!!
(YOU helped us all KEEP the RIGHT to buy where we choose!!!)
Viet Nam, Desert Storm vet----
THANK-YOU!!!!!
(YOU helped us all KEEP the RIGHT to buy where we choose!!!)
quality
You are saying that your opinion defines quality...and in a limited way it does ... you define your standard that you are going to measure all cars against do decide which car is best for you....that is fine, we all do that. But, that does not mean that you can then say that the car you chose is the best quality car...only that it is the best choice for you. That has nothing at all to do with the quality of the vehicle that you chose. The quality of that vehicle is determined by its conformance to its specification. Is it what it says it is -- represents quality...not is it what you'd like it to be.
You are saying that your opinion defines quality...and in a limited way it does ... you define your standard that you are going to measure all cars against do decide which car is best for you....that is fine, we all do that. But, that does not mean that you can then say that the car you chose is the best quality car...only that it is the best choice for you. That has nothing at all to do with the quality of the vehicle that you chose. The quality of that vehicle is determined by its conformance to its specification. Is it what it says it is -- represents quality...not is it what you'd like it to be.
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Russianwolf
Member
So to answer my own question since no one else seems willing.
Kit number ----- My assumed Smitty's answer----- My answer
1) ----- 3 (100%) ----- 5
2) ----- 1 (106%) ----- 3
3) ----- 4 (97.5%) ----- 1
4) ----- 2 (105%) ----- 2
5) -----5 (89%) ----- 3
Smitty can tell us if I got his answers right.
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VW
Be happy it isn't my wife's three year old new Beetle, which I do not consider to be a high quality car....for many reasons....
why do i feel like your talking about mt 38 year old vw , daily driver
David
terryf
Member
I think we're confusing the issue here.
A quality manager measures according to a standard to which his/her company conforms.
A consumer expects, as Mike/Linda mentioned, better than average lifespan, less issues etc.
A quality manager measures according to a standard to which his/her company conforms.
A consumer expects, as Mike/Linda mentioned, better than average lifespan, less issues etc.
Russianwolf
Member
I'm dropping the car analogies as they are just too complicated. Radios????????
Look at post 34 I think it is, with the pen plating question.
Russianwolf
Member
I'll add one more car related comment.
JD Power and Associates Quality ratings are NOT based on manufactures specs, are they?
JD Power and Associates Quality ratings are NOT based on manufactures specs, are they?
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
While I don't understand your answers, I would say
3,4,2,5,1
Actual plating:.0195, .019, .016, .016, .015
2 at .016 beats 5 at .016, because it was "advertised" as .015, so it exceeds their spec, where the other was advertised as .018 so it is below the spec.
But specs be damned, I want the one with the greatest plating thickness for MY customer. This is the least likely to revisit me in the hands of that same, now irate, customer.
3,4,2,5,1
Actual plating:.0195, .019, .016, .016, .015
2 at .016 beats 5 at .016, because it was "advertised" as .015, so it exceeds their spec, where the other was advertised as .018 so it is below the spec.
But specs be damned, I want the one with the greatest plating thickness for MY customer. This is the least likely to revisit me in the hands of that same, now irate, customer.
Russianwolf
Member
you and I are alike Ed..... no real surprise there..... I let them be tied at 3rd since I don't care what the manufacturer claims, just what is.
wrong
Assuming you spec'd only the minimum thickness of the plating and not both the minimum and maximum as I would expect most manufacturers to do since plating can be too thick as well as too thin. I would see three that met or exceeded the specification and two that would be rejected. I would not say that any of the three was of higher quality than any other and that all three were higher quality than the rejects.
(plating is not analogous to maximum speed of a car...the minimum speed of a car is 0 so it is understood without being stated. Also, the VW would have been the same, if it went 85 instead of 82, it would have exceeded it's spec) If the max had been stated and between 79 and 81...the VW would also have been out of spec.
Wrong....
Assuming you spec'd only the minimum thickness of the plating and not both the minimum and maximum as I would expect most manufacturers to do since plating can be too thick as well as too thin. I would see three that met or exceeded the specification and two that would be rejected. I would not say that any of the three was of higher quality than any other and that all three were higher quality than the rejects.
(plating is not analogous to maximum speed of a car...the minimum speed of a car is 0 so it is understood without being stated. Also, the VW would have been the same, if it went 85 instead of 82, it would have exceeded it's spec) If the max had been stated and between 79 and 81...the VW would also have been out of spec.
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JD
No they are a public OPINION polling company and their ratings are based on public opinion.
Well your spec does not make sense....It should be more like .015 plus or minus .0005 but going with what you gave me below is my opinion. I would not rate them on a good/better/best basis...that is luxury not quality.
1) accepted - meets requirements
2) accepted - exceeds requirements
3) rejected - does not meet requirements
4) accepted - exceeds requirements
5) rejected - does not meet requirements
The fact that two rejected items have higher requirements and are actually thicker than some that do meet spec makes no difference. If you paid for .020 and got .0195 you didn't get what you paid for.
What a fun afternoon
Hey!!! thanks to all who participated in this thread...it's been a fun time foer me but I think I'm all done on this one. It does show that what quality control professionals have been saying for at least 50 years is still true.
Most people do not know what quality control is all about. Or what really constitutes quality.
Hey!!! thanks to all who participated in this thread...it's been a fun time foer me but I think I'm all done on this one. It does show that what quality control professionals have been saying for at least 50 years is still true.
Most people do not know what quality control is all about. Or what really constitutes quality.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
yup
Yea I had some equipment be made in Walnut Creek CA about 30 years ago and we had the same issue...had to have our guy watch the vendors workers.
Yea I had some equipment be made in Walnut Creek CA about 30 years ago and we had the same issue...had to have our guy watch the vendors workers.
OKLAHOMAN
Member
:good::good::good:
jttheclockman
Member
Why in the world are we talking about cars on a pen turning forum. Take it to the Casual Conversation thing. We as Americans do not demand quality we demand low prices and that is what we get.
As far as related to pens I think Mike MLK had the perfect answer.
As far as related to pens I think Mike MLK had the perfect answer.
Russianwolf
Member
Actually, I'm well aware of what Quality Control is, but that's not what your original post said. It said it was about determining quality.
Quality control is checking to make sure that a measure is within tolerences and passing only those that meet those tolerences.
determining quality is a whole other matter.
I can read a dictionary just fine. And if you can find a non-QC dictionary that agrees with your definition 100% maybe I'll reconsider, But insulting me even in a mild form won't do it. :wink:
Now, here's the catcher..... in my example with the platings, if I then come back and say I have a requirement of a minimum .017 thickness, then you'll see that some meet my required quality and some don't. Some that don't even pass the their own manufacturers test pass mine, and some that do pass their test don't meet my requirements.
So quality is subjective to who's spec you are testing against.
Disagree.
Well, disagree/agree.
VW's are plagued by electrical problems right now. Have been since around 1999ish. Why? Because they cut corners, reduced quality, reduced quality control and were more focused on "push em out" than they were with "give quality". VW has been like that for years. (Coil packs anyone? Heater channels on your bug gone? Battery tray drop out of your bus? Door handles break on your mk2?)
On the other hand.. I know what i'll get by buying a VW. I would be much happier in a VW than a Mercedes. Personal choice from a guy who has driven VW's for 20 years now. (Driven as a daily driver, an autocross car, show car and a Sunday cruiser)...
Turning this back to pen kit quality (no pun intended), I know if I buy a kit from smitty, im buying something that came from China/Japan/Taiwan/etc.. I've bought kits on eBay that I knew originated from the same area.
I would continue to buy from Smitty because A)I know his product is majority very good.. B)I know his customer service is very good.. C)Supporting someone who has been good to me in the past/supports IAP.
FWIW...
Headlight blown or leaking water? Wiper transmission stripped? Hatch not opening? Need to pull the front tire to change a blinker? Door panels/grab handle peeling? Climate control unit has a snapped cable at the heat adjustment? Random clicking sound from the relays?
My wife is on her 3rd New Beetle. Every time she has a problem, I think i've seen it all, then 2 months later, something new and "fun" comes up.
luxury
Resale value is determined by the market...not the quality ... quality issues are items that you as a manufacturer can control. Quality does not include things that you cannot control.
What is "well made"? Your definition and mine might differ..conformance to specification can be seen, felt, smelled, touched, heard or measured....hence "well made" is opinion and has nothing to do with quality, conformance to spec is quality. Hence. a very high quality and luxury pen blank can be turned (no pun intended) into a very low quality pen...the blank meets all of its specifications but the pen does not...
Resale value is determined by the market...not the quality ... quality issues are items that you as a manufacturer can control. Quality does not include things that you cannot control.
What is "well made"? Your definition and mine might differ..conformance to specification can be seen, felt, smelled, touched, heard or measured....hence "well made" is opinion and has nothing to do with quality, conformance to spec is quality. Hence. a very high quality and luxury pen blank can be turned (no pun intended) into a very low quality pen...the blank meets all of its specifications but the pen does not...
kirkfranks
Member
This has been an interesting discussion, but one point is missing.
To the best of my knowledge the fact is that none of the pen kit manufacturers will show us what their actual specs are.
If company A said their tubes are to be size X +/-.001 and the shiny bits are size Y +/- .001 and company B said their tubes are X +/- .005 and shiny bits are X +/- .005 then we would have something to use when we compare that all important price (or is it all important.)
As I see it we only have our perceived spec to judge the suppliers against and since we all have different opinions on that perceived spec should be we will never be able to make an informed decision. I believe that the suppliers would rather keep things this way. I welcome them to post their specs (with tolerances) to prove me wrong
To the best of my knowledge the fact is that none of the pen kit manufacturers will show us what their actual specs are.
If company A said their tubes are to be size X +/-.001 and the shiny bits are size Y +/- .001 and company B said their tubes are X +/- .005 and shiny bits are X +/- .005 then we would have something to use when we compare that all important price (or is it all important.)
As I see it we only have our perceived spec to judge the suppliers against and since we all have different opinions on that perceived spec should be we will never be able to make an informed decision. I believe that the suppliers would rather keep things this way. I welcome them to post their specs (with tolerances) to prove me wrong
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quality
You are dancing around the correct answer...pen maker A and pen maker B both set a spec. and then go looking for what's out there...conformance to their spec is what will meet their requirements. That is not quality, that is simply saying this is what I want, can you provide it. Quality comes after someone says "Yes I can". Pen maker B will not even consider the item from the manufacturer that does not meet his specification. Pen maker A will consider both because both meet his specification.
I
You are dancing around the correct answer...pen maker A and pen maker B both set a spec. and then go looking for what's out there...conformance to their spec is what will meet their requirements. That is not quality, that is simply saying this is what I want, can you provide it. Quality comes after someone says "Yes I can". Pen maker B will not even consider the item from the manufacturer that does not meet his specification. Pen maker A will consider both because both meet his specification.
I
Maybe
Maybe you do and maybe you don't....the actual plating being too thin might very well give you some grief by not fitting correctly...
Maybe you do and maybe you don't....the actual plating being too thin might very well give you some grief by not fitting correctly...
Wrong again
Actually confusion of quality and luxury is exactly what marketing folks want....thats why you can spend from $8000 or so to about as much as you want to to buy a new vehicle to get you from point A to point B over land. They want you to think that buying their bells and whistles will make your car a "better quality" machine....Most of us have owned enough cars to know that it just ain't so. The best car I have ever owned was not the most expensive, even in what one would call "current year dollars"...wasn't a car either...it was a pickup truck.
Actually confusion of quality and luxury is exactly what marketing folks want....thats why you can spend from $8000 or so to about as much as you want to to buy a new vehicle to get you from point A to point B over land. They want you to think that buying their bells and whistles will make your car a "better quality" machine....Most of us have owned enough cars to know that it just ain't so. The best car I have ever owned was not the most expensive, even in what one would call "current year dollars"...wasn't a car either...it was a pickup truck.
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
As you may or may not know...I build custom homes. Just for grins, I took a look at a brand new Square D panel that I have sitting in my warehouse. Made in USA. I then took a look at a brand new Square D breaker...you guessed it, Made in USA. Cooper wall switch...made in USA. Lutron dimmer...Made in Mexico.
Certainly not made in China but then again, these are known to be some of the best quality electrical components made.
I think some are worrying too much about technical definition, and not enough about reality. This discussion is really about pen components, right? So lets talk about pens. The reality for most of us is that quality is what our customers perceive it to be. That means smooth working transmissions and threads, durable, defect-free platings, smooth writing refills, and other factors that have more to do with our own craftsmanship than the components.
A factory can easily turn out "quality" components that meet some very low standards. The reality is that a potential customer is not likely to feel he's holding a quality pen when the trans doesn't want to work quite right, or the cap is rough threading. A customer is even less likely to feel he's holding a quality piece when his favorite pen's plating looks like crap, or just plain disappears, in short order.
A factory can easily turn out "quality" components that meet some very low standards. The reality is that a potential customer is not likely to feel he's holding a quality pen when the trans doesn't want to work quite right, or the cap is rough threading. A customer is even less likely to feel he's holding a quality piece when his favorite pen's plating looks like crap, or just plain disappears, in short order.
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
It did occur to me that a car has thousands of moving parts--the pen components on a slimline have ONE moving part.
Why not consider just the "pen-relevant" issues:
Simple twist transmission
Plating durability
Components fitting into the brass tubes and remaining "whole"
I used Chinese kits all of one Christmas season, because I WANT a competitor for Dayacom. I never understood paying $8 for 4 parts and two tubes. NOW, those prices are down considerably. But, when I used the kits that season, I scrunched several transmissions (I had never done that with Taiwan kits). A few clips broke off--again, never had that happen with Taiwan.
So, now, I look for components that FIT. Where they are made, does make a difference---to ME. Plating does make a difference---to ME.
But the pens I sell are, once again VERY LIKELY to bring my customers back to ME, with a SMILE on their faces!!
The demand brought on by the "Price-only" customer should reflect how many NEW turners are starting this hobby. IF you are learning HOW to make the pen, it's longevity need NOT be a major concern.
I want to make very clear that I am NOT knocking Smitty. HE has represented these kits honestly. He stands behind them. His ethics are, in my opinion, sterling.
My fear is that these kits are sold to the public, the plating will "wear off" and the whole "hand-made pen" industry will share the "stigma" of "crappy product" that we bore years ago when IPG (iridium point-- Germany) got it's "black eye". We are STILL trying to clear up THAT problem.
So let's make the pen market clearly striated:
Sell these pens as "pretty good, for the money". NOT the smoothest, NOT the longest lasting, but hey, Mr. Customer, you're supporting my learning curve!!! And they don't cost as much as that guy over there with the Titanium gold and smooth transmission!!!
In a few years, the Chinese will have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!! Just like Japan did.
Why not consider just the "pen-relevant" issues:
Simple twist transmission
Plating durability
Components fitting into the brass tubes and remaining "whole"
I used Chinese kits all of one Christmas season, because I WANT a competitor for Dayacom. I never understood paying $8 for 4 parts and two tubes. NOW, those prices are down considerably. But, when I used the kits that season, I scrunched several transmissions (I had never done that with Taiwan kits). A few clips broke off--again, never had that happen with Taiwan.
So, now, I look for components that FIT. Where they are made, does make a difference---to ME. Plating does make a difference---to ME.
But the pens I sell are, once again VERY LIKELY to bring my customers back to ME, with a SMILE on their faces!!
The demand brought on by the "Price-only" customer should reflect how many NEW turners are starting this hobby. IF you are learning HOW to make the pen, it's longevity need NOT be a major concern.
I want to make very clear that I am NOT knocking Smitty. HE has represented these kits honestly. He stands behind them. His ethics are, in my opinion, sterling.
My fear is that these kits are sold to the public, the plating will "wear off" and the whole "hand-made pen" industry will share the "stigma" of "crappy product" that we bore years ago when IPG (iridium point-- Germany) got it's "black eye". We are STILL trying to clear up THAT problem.
So let's make the pen market clearly striated:
Sell these pens as "pretty good, for the money". NOT the smoothest, NOT the longest lasting, but hey, Mr. Customer, you're supporting my learning curve!!! And they don't cost as much as that guy over there with the Titanium gold and smooth transmission!!!
In a few years, the Chinese will have this down to a science and their products will perform "just like Taiwan"!! Just like Japan did.
MesquiteMan
Retired Head Moderator
Not sure about that, Ed. Taiwan and Japan are not using child labor to my knowledge.
OKLAHOMAN
Member
:biggrin:I love it when someone else writes my thoughts and saves me all that typing......:biggrin:
oneula
Member
its "perceived value" because things that are not absolutely neccesary for survival need "perceived value" to become so
quality and luxury really have nothing to do with each other but are often used to help in the definition of something's "perceived" versus real physical value to often increase the monetary compensation of something.
For some folks anything other than an inexpensive or even free work provided ballpoint pen is a waste of their hard earned money, just like some would forego a car or luxurious car in place of saving up to buy a home.
Like someone already said, its how a user/owner interprets their interaction with an object that helps defines how they see that object and that'll be different by individual, maybe even time of day or frame of mind.
Quality and Luxury used to be defined by the simple catch phrase "Lifetime Guaranteed Free Replacement No Questions Asked"
quality and luxury really have nothing to do with each other but are often used to help in the definition of something's "perceived" versus real physical value to often increase the monetary compensation of something.
For some folks anything other than an inexpensive or even free work provided ballpoint pen is a waste of their hard earned money, just like some would forego a car or luxurious car in place of saving up to buy a home.
Like someone already said, its how a user/owner interprets their interaction with an object that helps defines how they see that object and that'll be different by individual, maybe even time of day or frame of mind.
Quality and Luxury used to be defined by the simple catch phrase "Lifetime Guaranteed Free Replacement No Questions Asked"
Rick_G
Member
Before I retired I spent close to 15 years repairing and calibrating the electronics that shut a nuclear reactor down if there was a problem. When I retired they let me choose my replacement. There were 5 guys that wanted my job. My interview was simple, here calibrate this ion chamber amplifier. Having calibrated this equipment for years I knew 1/1000 of a volt was relatively easily obtainable. The tolerance was 5/1000 of a volt. Only one of the 5 guys spent the time to get the calibration within 1/1000 of a volt, 3 were happy with the outside spec of 5/1000 of a volt the other was in between. Which one would you want calibrating the equipment for a nuclear power plant 5 miles from your home and family. Working on this stuff for years I found errors do not cancel each other out they add. That's where quality stands out.
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jttheclockman
Member
8 pages of what??? What is the point??? Please get to the punch line. We are debating symantics of 2 words. Must be a slow pen turning day:biggrin:
ed4copies
Local Chapter Manager
Don't like long threads??
Set your personal preferences to the max per page and this thread has not yet filled TWO pages!!!! It'll make you feel SOOOOOOOOOooooo much better!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Set your personal preferences to the max per page and this thread has not yet filled TWO pages!!!! It'll make you feel SOOOOOOOOOooooo much better!!!:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
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jttheclockman
Member
I feel soooooooooooooooo much better now just knowing that is possible. Thanks for the heads up. That was a Quality answer or was that a LUXURY ???:bulgy-eyes::question::yin-yang::befuddled::befuddled:
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