Quality vs Luxury

[Smitty37]

Let's forget pen kits from China and Taiwan for a minute and think about what constitutes Quality.

Let me give you a little back ground...for 32 years I was a Test Tecnician and Test Engineer for a large corporation and product testing (which is what I was involved with) is strictly a Quality Control field. So my background is closely related to this issue.

We had to reach some decisions on what "quality" is - and in the end price did not go into the equation. Conformance to requirements (specifications) is the only issue when determining whether an item is high quality or not.

The specifications themselves should describe whether the item is (say) "good", "better" or "best" ... using automobiles as an example: If I take a Mercedes advertised and spec'd to do 150 miles an hour on the highway and a VW Beetle spec'd to do 80 mph and I test drive them both and the Mercedes dose 128 and the Beetle does 82...with respect to speed the Beetle is the higher quality car...it exceeded its spec while the Mercedes did not meet its spec. The Mercedes is still a "better" car from the standpoint of luxury but it is not a higher quality car.

The same is true of the pens you make...how much you pay for the blank has very little to do with how well you turn and finish it. You can do an outstanding job with fit and finish and still have an ugly pen and you can do a mediocre job and still have a great looking pen....which is the higher quality? Well if you put tight spec's on your fit and finish as many of you do, the ugly pen meets the spec and the beauty doesn't...the ugly pen is the higher quality, but still might be worth a lot less. Beauty sells.

Now, with pen kits....some are manufactured to sell with in a price range...and the specifications are designed to call for components that will work but still allow them to sell in the price range. So the transmissions should turn the pen in and out reliably but perhaps not as smoothly and perhaps not for as many operations as a "better" kit. If a cap is supposed to screw on and off, it should screw on and off reliably but perhaps not as smoothly as a more expensive "better" kit. The finish should look like it is supposed to look, no scratches, missing plating etc. but it may well not look as highly polished and refined as a "better" kit.

So what the turner needs to do is determine what his/her goals are..if you want to be know as a "great" pen maker who's pens sell for hundreds of dollars or you want to be considered an "artist" rather than a "craftsman"
you will probably want to choose luxury in your selection of materials. If like me you want to have a bit of fun in your shop turning a nice piece of wood into a pretty nice looking pen you will probably chose lower priced materials. Both choices make perfect sense.

 

[terryf]

Smitty while I do agree with you, being a quality manager myself, the trick it seems, is to be a manufacturer who establishes market requirements in terms of beauty and then manufactures the goods to the highest quality, irrespective of price.

Now if only we could find a pen kit manufacturer that complies with both these requirements we'd have a winner

Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)

 

[ed4copies]

Smitty while I do agree with you, being a quality manager myself, the trick it seems, is to be a manufacturer who establishes market requirements in terms of beauty and then manufactures the goods to the highest quality, irrespective of price.

Now if only we could find a pen kit manufacturer that complies with both these requirements we'd have a winner

Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)

25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan. How do you feel about them now?

 

[bitshird]

Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)

Please don't tell the three Chinese lathes in my shop that, they would be heart broken, I doubt if they would work any worse but they do many hours a day and still run their butts off with very few problems but since they are used in a commercial environment who am I to say.

 

[Smitty37]

Chinese and quality

Smitty while I do agree with you, being a quality manager myself, the trick it seems, is to be a manufacturer who establishes market requirements in terms of beauty and then manufactures the goods to the highest quality, irrespective of price.

Now if only we could find a pen kit manufacturer that complies with both these requirements we'd have a winner

Ps. Chinese and quality are definitely not synonyms and dont even belong in the same book never mind sentence. (thats my opinion and Im sticking to it)

The issue isn't about Chinese Quality....it is about what quality is.

I don't know about you but I am old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was a synonym for "JUNK". To a lesser degree the same think could have been said about "Made in Korea" and "Made in Taiwan".

If you live in a house less than 10 years old, don't check your electrical system, because (all or nearly all) of it including circuit breakers, outlets, switches, junction boxes, outlet boxes and all the other things that you trust your life to every day will have been made in China.

And so far, after 5 years of living in such a house I have had zero failures except for light bulbs.

 

[terryf]

Ed, perhaps in 25 years I'll change my opinion about "Made in China". Right now though, I stick to my opinion

 

[snyiper]

I always thought of quality as the way things are built you pay for the level you want. Luxury is above and beyond what is needed to function properly. Anything to make the operators life easier or faster, not at all related to quality although the two do interface quite often.

 

[ed4copies]

Ed, perhaps in 25 years I'll change my opinion about "Made in China". Right now though, I stick to my opinion

They will produce the level of quality that their customers demand. As long as we accept crap, they will provide it.

Recently, they had to replace a component (I can research exactly what, but it pertained to the kit that alleges to be the Jr Gent I, as I recall it). As long as they are forced to do that when something goes wrong, their quality will improve. Like early Japan, they understand "financial loss" better than any other words in English!!!

 

[DCBluesman]

I have a simple definition of quality - no variance. Deliver on time, on spec and on price. My standards can be raised or lowered on any two of the variables and the supplier will determine the third. Once we reach an agreement, deliver all three.

And FWIW, exceeding expectations is absurd. There is an avoidable cost associated with exceeding rather than meeting expectations. That cost is waste.

 

[Russianwolf]

So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.


I don't think so. Quality isn't just about the specs of the product you are testing, its also relative to the specs of the competing products.

So yes, the Mercedes didn't meet its spec, and is poor quality compared to its spec, but the VW can't meet that spec either, and in fact was further from that spec, so can't be considered a better quality product.

 

[ed4copies]

exceeding expectations is absurd. There is an avoidable cost associated with exceeding rather than meeting expectations. That cost is waste.

Everybody please send back your "Freebees"!!

:biggrin::biggrinSorry, Lou, I HAD to do it!!!):biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Smitty37]

Chinese and quality

25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan. How do you feel about them now?

As I said above...try to find something electrical (and the electrical items in my house are a lot more important to me than pen kits) for your house wiring that isn't made in China.

 

[ThomJ]

I have an aquaintance that has his product made in china, as long as his representative from the US is on the factory floor making spot QC checks things are fine, let him take time away from the factory & the product ends up with flaws. That being said, I have also seen that happen in US factories.

 

[Smitty37]

Quality

I always thought of quality as the way things are built you pay for the level you want. Luxury is above and beyond what is needed to function properly. Anything to make the operators life easier or faster, not at all related to quality although the two do interface quite often.

A car needs tires...tires can be designed to last 20000 miles or they can be designed to last 60000 miles .... quality is if they last as long as they are designed to last under normal driving conditions.... luxury is how many miles they are designed to last.

Quality is conformance to requiements as stated in the specifications.

Luxury is the level of performance stated in the requirements requirements

 

[DCBluesman]

Mike -

If I make an agreement to buy a Mercedes for $80,000 based on the spec that it must achieve a speed of 150 MPH and the supplier delivers a Mercedes that does not achieve a speed of 150 MPH then the quality has not been provided. On the other hand, if I agree to buy a Volkswagen for $30,000 based on a spec that it must achieve a speed of 80 MPH and the supplier delivers a Volkswagen that goes 80 miles an hour then quality has been provided.

I'm not saying the VW is better than the Mercedes, but in the first transaction I have every right as the customer to expect higher quality. The standard was not met. In the second transaction, I have no valid complaints. The standard was met.

So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.


I don't think so. Quality isn't just about the specs of the product you are testing, its also relative to the specs of the competing products.

So yes, the Mercedes didn't meet its spec, and is poor quality compared to its spec, but the VW can't meet that spec either, and in fact was further from that spec, so can't be considered a better quality product.

 

[ed4copies]

As I said above...try to find something electrical (and the electrical items in my house are a lot more important to me than pen kits) for your house wiring that isn't made in China.

Well, let's evaluate that a bit.

The pen kits I use are incorporated into a "work of craftsmanship" that I will either present to a friend or loved one or I will sell to someone who expends funds, showing trust in my assurances that the product will last.

In short, MY REPUTATION rides on every pen.

ONE crappy component can (and HAS) lost me hundreds of dollars and significant loss of "pride" or "face".

Each pen maker has to determine what HIS comfort level is. To ME, crappy components are unacceptable.

The argument has been put forth that EVERY kit has had some failures. That MAY be true, but the failure rate of most of the kits being made in China is still too high, for MY comfort level.

Smitty, you correctly assert that you have sold thousands of these. You are also very forthright in that you have never promised high quality, so you cannot disappoint. Your sales are based on low cost, with a higher, but acceptable failure rate.


FOR ME, that's too high a price.

And, again, there is room for both of our philosophies--I believe you will sell far MORE kits than I. My customers, selling the components I choose, will make far more profit. And they will protect THEIR reputation as craftsmen or artists.

To each his own.

 

[Smitty37]

Wrong

So in other words, if you set your expectations low and meet them, it's a quality product.


I don't think so. Quality isn't just about the specs of the product you are testing, its also relative to the specs of the competing products.

So yes, the Mercedes didn't meet its spec, and is poor quality compared to its spec, but the VW can't meet that spec either, and in fact was further from that spec, so can't be considered a better quality product.

You are confusing quality and luxury....it the case I cited the VW is meeting its specification....The Mercedes is not, hence the VW is meeting the quality requirements and the Mercedes is not. You send the Mercedes back and say fix it....you drive the VW home and put it in the garage. If you go out to start your car in the morning and it doesn't start, it does not matter what you paid for it, it is not conforming to specifications and hence can't be said to be meeting its quality requirement.

Quality is not measured against the specification of a competeing product, nor can it be. Conformance to requirements is the yardstick for quality...requirements do not usually include beating another items spec.

 

[Wood Butcher]

"I agreed with all of you". How's that for MugWumpin, think I'll run for a government office on that slogan. No, really, you are all correct in your thinking. There is a book I have titled Six Thinking Hats that is useful in resolving "conflicts" of opinion, and other stuff.
The facts: pen kits come in good, better and crap and at all prices, there is a buyer for every pen at the right price
The emotions: I like making pens, it validates my efforts when someone gives me money for one and it fulfills my need to create, I must do the best I can do all the time (this is commonly caused by having been potty trained with a handgun)
The positive side: people will buy pens, people will buy pens at a price they can afford(justify), selling pens allows me to afford to make more pens.
The cautions/concerns: if I price my work too high I will sell one pen a month, I may end up with a big inventory and have to have a "garage sale" to get money to make more pens, if I sell them too cheap I'll lose money, if I sell too many too cheap it will become work and the fun will be displaced
The potential: if I make the pens well and design things others haven't thought of yet I may have an opportunity to grow a small business unique to the craft, as I become better accepted as a craftsman I can expand into other crafted objects, I could write a book, or at least a tutorial, and grow my reputation as a craftsman of integrity and knowledge
The sixth hat is the hat that referees the others so, in this case doesn't come into play.
And then there is always the discussion of, does form follow function or the other way around?

 

[Smitty37]

Spot checks

I have an aquaintance that has his product made in china, as long as his representative from the US is on the factory floor making spot QC checks things are fine, let him take time away from the factory & the product ends up with flaws. That being said, I have also seen that happen in US factories.

Yep....in the 60's they used to tell us "Don't buy a car built on a Monday or a Friday"....and everybody "expected" to take their car back to the dealer to correct all the "little things" that got overlooked at the factory. In the 70's the Japanese...headed by Toyota showed them the error of their ways and the most popular American made car is now a Toyota.

 

[DCBluesman]

Come on, Ed. We both know that freebies, rebates, etc. are simply pricing strategies.

Everybody please send back your "Freebees"!!

:biggrin::biggrinSorry, Lou, I HAD to do it!!!):biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Russianwolf]

Mike -

If I make an agreement to buy a Mercedes for $80,000 based on the spec that it must achieve a speed of 150 MPH and the supplier delivers a Mercedes that does not achieve a speed of 150 MPH then the quality has not been provided. On the other hand, if I agree to buy a Volkswagen for $30,000 based on a spec that it must achieve a speed of 80 MPH and the supplier delivers a Volkswagen that goes 80 miles an hour then quality has been provided.

I'm not saying the VW is better than the Mercedes, but in the first transaction I have every right as the customer to expect higher quality. The standard was not met. In the second transaction, I have no valid complaints. The standard was met.

But in the original post, the claim was that the VW was HIGHER quality than the Benz. The problem is that while true to their individual specs, the specs aren't comparable. So, saying that statement is deceptive.

example: If I take a Mercedes advertised and spec'd to do 150 miles an hour on the highway and a VW Beetle spec'd to do 80 mph and I test drive them both and the Mercedes dose 128 and the Beetle does 82...with respect to speed the Beetle is the higher quality car...it exceeded its spec while the Mercedes did not meet its spec. The Mercedes is still a "better" car from the standpoint of luxury but it is not a higher quality car

This is the reason that magazines throw specs out the window and compare vehicles based on performance in tests. They can then compare the results of the performance and determine the quality compared to one another.

 

[DCBluesman]

I'm not sure we can close this gap. The claim is not that the car is better or the performance is better. The claim is that the quality is better. If I paid $30,000 and got exactly what I asked for, I would certainly be more satisfied with the transaction than if I paid $80,000 and did not get what I asked for. But that's just me.

Maybe we need to agree to disagree.

But in the original post, the claim was that the VW was HIGHER quality than the Benz. The problem is that while true to their individual specs, the specs aren't comparable. So, saying that statement is deceptive.




This is the reason that magazines throw specs out the window and compare vehicles based on performance in tests. They can then compare the results of the performance and determine the quality compared to one another.

 

[Rick_G]

25 years ago, we said the same thing about Japan. How do you feel about them now?

That said my #1 choice is still made in Canada and my #2 is made in USA. Case in point I bought a fan a couple years ago. Cost me a little more than double the Chinese equiv. but it moves more air on low than the Chinese one does on high and you can hardly hear it. If I move it to high there is no contest and it still makes less noise.

 

[Russianwolf]

I'm not sure we can close this gap. The claim is not that the car is better or the performance is better. The claim is that the quality is better. If I paid $30,000 and got exactly what I asked for, I would certainly be more satisfied with the transaction than if I paid $80,000 and did not get what I asked for. But that's just me.

Maybe we need to agree to disagree.

What if both are $30k?

Here's the definition that I use. 9. ( modifier ) having or showing excellence or superiority: a quality product

 

[DCBluesman]

Well, if I had an agreement that for $30,000 I would get a Mercedes that would reach 150MPH and was delivered a Mercedes that would not reach 150MPH I would feel the supplier shorted me. He did not deliver what he promised. Is the Mercedes a better car? Probably. Did the salesman do right by me? No. Am I a happy customer? No.

What if both are $30k?

 

[Smitty37]

Quality

Well, let's evaluate that a bit.

The pen kits I use are incorporated into a "work of craftsmanship" that I will either present to a friend or loved one or I will sell to someone who expends funds, showing trust in my assurances that the product will last.

In short, MY REPUTATION rides on every pen.

ONE crappy component can (and HAS) lost me hundreds of dollars and significant loss of "pride" or "face".

Each pen maker has to determine what HIS comfort level is. To ME, crappy components are unacceptable.

The argument has been put forth that EVERY kit has had some failures. That MAY be true, but the failure rate of most of the kits being made in China is still too high, for MY comfort level.

Smitty, you correctly assert that you have sold thousands of these. You are also very forthright in that you have never promised high quality, so you cannot disappoint. Your sales are based on low cost, with a higher, but acceptable failure rate.


FOR ME, that's too high a price.

And, again, there is room for both of our philosophies--I believe you will sell far MORE kits than I. My customers, selling the components I choose, will make far more profit. And they will protect THEIR reputation as craftsmen or artists.

To each his own.

There is nothing in my philosophy that allows for junk...I believe that the finished product made with kits I sell for $1.50/$2.50 compare very well to kits costing twice that...my personal experience is the reason I started selling them.

The failure rate in my experience has been very low which is why I sell them with an unconditional return warranty. And, you can trust me on this, if I start getting too many of them back...I will stop selling them.

The fact that I sell as many as I do mostly to repeat customers means that there is a demand for my product and the the folks buying them are satisfied with the product. I don't make second, third and forth purchases of products I don't like....do you?

 

[Russianwolf]

Well, if I had an agreement that for $30,000 I would get a Mercedes that would reach 150MPH and was delivered a Mercedes that would not reach 150MPH I would feel the supplier shorted me. He did not deliver what he promised. Is the Mercedes a better car? Probably. Did the salesman do right by me? No. Am I a happy customer? No.

And you wouldn't be any happier with a VW that will do 40mph less than the Benz.

What I'm getting at is if you are looking at a 150mph Benz, and the 150mph is your requirement, you won't be considering a 80mph VW. They aren't the same quality (noun).

Now if you have a spec of 80mph and you have a VW that does 82 and a Benz that does 80, then yeah, the VW is higher quality (adjective). It's superior in the spec.

I don't know anything about quality testing, but this is the real world.

 

[Smitty37]

They're not...

What if both are $30k?

Here's the definition that I use. 9. ( modifier ) having or showing excellence or superiority: a quality product

They're not...but that doesn't really enter into it...one is meeting its requirements the other is not...the price of each is not part of the equation. If one was a Yugo...it still wouldn't matter.

If you buy a pair of shoes that say they're your size and you get them home and they're about two sizes too small, you won't be calling them a quality product whether you spent $10.00 or $1000 on them will you. The wrong size can still show "excellence or superiority" but it still does not meet the specifications....

 

[Russianwolf]

They're not...but that doesn't really enter into it...one is meeting its requirements the other is not...the price of each is not part of the equation. If one was a Yugo...it still wouldn't matter.

If you buy a pair of shoes that say they're your size and you get them home and they're about two sizes too small, you won't be calling them a quality product whether you spent $10.00 or $1000 on them will you. The wrong size can still show "excellence or superiority" but it still does not meet the specifications....

Smitty, it depends on what you are comparing.

You compare to spec set by the manufacturer, I compare to a standard spec.

Mine allows me to compare products to a spec that I find acceptable to determine their quality compared to one another.

Yours only allows you to determine the quality as compared to the manufacturers spec. (That whole, set a low expectation and it will be high quality thing).

edit: and I didn't bring price into this thing. Lou did. I was removing it by saying what if the cars are the same price.

 

[IPD_Mrs]

How does a car reaching the speeds of 150mph equate to quality or luxury?

Here would be my thoughts of quality vs luxury using a car as an example.

Quality:
Better than average lifespan of comparable products. Fewer repairs and maintenance issues. Higher resale value.

Luxury:
All the above plus heated and cooled seat.

Quality is just a well made product or service, where the luxury is all the unnecessary bells and whistle while maintaining the quality. Luxury should be quality but quality should not equate to luxury. The exception to the latter would be if someone had to consistently settle for low quality, then a high quality product might equate to a luxury for that person.

 

[Smitty37]

real world

And you wouldn't be any happier with a VW that will do 40mph less than the Benz.

What I'm getting at is if you are looking at a 150mph Benz, and the 150mph is your requirement, you won't be considering a 80mph VW. They aren't the same quality (noun).

Now if you have a spec of 80mph and you have a VW that does 82 and a Benz that does 80, then yeah, the VW is higher quality (adjective). It's superior in the spec.

I don't know anything about quality testing, but this is the real world.

Real world or otherwise...quality is not comparing a Volkswagen and a Mercedes....certainly if you shop for a Mercedes you are probably not going to be shopping for a VW...that is luxury. But whichever you buy it must meet its specification to be a quality product. If it does not meet its specification it is not a high quality product, price not withstanding.


.

 

[Russianwolf]

Real world or otherwise...quality is not comparing a Volkswagen and a Mercedes....certainly if you shop for a Mercedes you are probably not going to be shopping for a VW...that is luxury. But whichever you buy it must meet its specification to be a quality product. If it does not meet its specification it is not a high quality product, price not withstanding.


.

IT's Spec?

How about MY Spec. I'm the person deciding which is higher quality. MY spec is all that matters. What the manufacture intended the spec to be doesn't matter, only what I want it to be.

As a quality tester, you are used to a very strict definition of the word quality. I'm telling you, that there is more than one definition of the word and your definition isn't always the right one.

And a VW CC is actually comparable to some of the Benz. :tongue:

 

[Smitty37]

Quality

But in the original post, the claim was that the VW was HIGHER quality than the Benz. The problem is that while true to their individual specs, the specs aren't comparable. So, saying that statement is deceptive.




This is the reason that magazines throw specs out the window and compare vehicles based on performance in tests. They can then compare the results of the performance and determine the quality compared to one another.

They set their own performance standards that they measure against; are usually quick to point out exactly what they are. They also point out that some (now and then all) of their standards are a bit dicey as to whether or not they are meaningful.

 

[Russianwolf]

I'll give one more example in term we can all understand.


I send you 5 pen kits with their manufactures specs and ask for the highest quality in terms of the thickness of the plating.

1) Spec. .015 actual .015
2) Spec. .015 actual .016
3) Spec. .020 actual .0195
4) Spec. .018 actual .019
5) Spec. .018 actual .016

Which is the higher quality plating?

Edit: I should actually ask that you rate them in quality, 1-5 with 1 being highest quality

 

[Russianwolf]

{crickets chirping}

 

[Smitty37]

quality

IT's Spec?

How about MY Spec. I'm the person deciding which is higher quality. MY spec is all that matters. What the manufacture intended the spec to be doesn't matter, only what I want it to be.

As a quality tester, you are used to a very strict definition of the word quality. I'm telling you, that there is more than one definition of the word and your definition isn't always the right one.

And a VW CC is actually comparable to some of the Benz. :tongue:

You are taking a position that what you think is quality....is quality. In short, you are saying that whatever car is, in your opinion, the better car according to your criteria, you will buy provided it is in your price rang....of course you will --- so will I, but that has nothing to do with the quality of the car we decide to buy. You might want a car with a $5000 super duper stereo....and think that is what "makes" the car, my wife would get one without a radio if they sold them that way. That is opinion...and it has nothing to do with quality, quality is whether that super duper stereo does what it is supposed to do in the manner it is supposed to do it. Whether it is there or not is luxury.

 

[tdjumr]

My Viewpoint

Quality
Quality is whatever you want it to be. If you say a component can within ±1 mm, and you are supplied with a part that is within the ±1 mm. You have a quality part. It meets the specifications you set forth.

"Penmaker A" and "Penmaker B" both make "Style A" pen. "Penmaker A" set his specifications on what he accepts in parts to have a tolerance of ±1 mm. "Penmaker B" set his specifications at ±0.5mm. "Source X" sells "Style A" pen with a tolerance of ±1 mm for $2. "Source Y" sells their "Style A" pen with a tolerance of ±0.5 mm for $5.

For "Penmaker A" both are a quality product. They both meet his specifications. "Source X" is a better value for him since it is lower cost.

For "Penmaker B", "Source X" is not a quality product. It doesn't meet his specifications. For him, "Source Y" provides a quality product. He pays a premium over "Source X" for a quality product, based on his specifications.

Quality is based on what expectations you have. Quality will vary for everyone. What's quality for one person, may not be a quality product for another.

What drill has better quality: A DeWalt or a Black & Decker? They both can drill a hole or put a screw in. Functionally they do the same thing. Why did you pick that brand?

Luxury
Luxury is anything above the basic function of an item. A bic pen meets the function of writing. A handcrafted pen is a luxury, it goes above the basic function of writing.

The heated seat in your car is a luxury. It is not needed for the basic function of a car.


Summary
Luxury's connection with quality is primarily perceived. If someone is buying a luxury item, they need to feel that the increased cost of the item is worth it to them. That worth may be in looks, functionality, quality...

People tend to associate luxury with higher quality. That may not always be the case. If it does not meet their specifications, it is not a quality product in their mind. It may have meet the manufacturers specifications, therefore meeting their quality standards. But if it doesn't meet the customers standards then it isn't a quality product. People pay more for luxury items, therefore feeling that the quality should be better then the standard product.

If our specifications on tolerances exceed that of our customer, then the customer feels that we provide a quality product. If the customers specifications on tolerances exceed that of ours then our product, in the customer's eyes, is not of high quality.

 

[Russianwolf]

Thanks Trevor. That's what I was inadequately trying to say.

 

[ed4copies]

Hey Mike, who found this engineer who can WRITE????

Nice job, Trevor!!!

 

[Russianwolf]

Don't know who found him, but can we keep him?!?!?!?!?