plating durability revisited

[Rifleman1776]

A while back there was a thread discussing the durability of the various gold platings. Without a doubt, the better the plating the longer lasting it is.
I am having a disspointing experience with the plating on theme clips. One of my first pens, a European with a rifle clip, I choose to use for myself at board meeting I participate in. I put in a red refill for notes. The pen is seldom used or handled, only part of two days a month and then only for the past couple months. Even with very slight use, the plating on the rifle clip is clearly wearing off.
Theme clips (Christian Cross, rifle, golf clubs, etc.) are usually used on premium, custom order or gift pens. We pay extra for these and have, in my opinion, the right to expect good service from them.
And just today, I received my latest order with some cross clips.
For what it's worth, mine came from CSUSA. And, no, I'm not on a crusade against that company. Just reporting the facts, Mam
(edited to change typo word from 'threat' to 'thread')

 

[Rudy Vey]

You are right - all theme clips have the cheap, thin gold coating and are not available in the better Titaniumgold, Platinum or else. I made the same experience!

 

[craneman54]

Dang it!!

I just ordered 3 packs of 5 each of the Gun,Medical,and Golf club.

I wonder if you can seal them in clear or colored (Black) lacquer.

 

[wayneis]

What did Craft Supply say when you called to complain?

craneman54 yes you can coat them if you or someone you know has a powder coat system.

Wayne

 

[timdaleiden]

Originally posted by craneman54
<br />.

I wonder if you can seal them in clear or colored (Black) lacquer.

Powder-coating would probably be a much better solution. I have used Deft lacquer over some of my brass shell casing pens in the past, and it does work. The problem is the cure time. If used frequently before it has completely cured, it will chip off.

I have one casing pen that just sat for a number of months and the lacquer now passes the thumbnail hardness test.

 

[Ligget]

I have a small stock of these clips, up until now I have never used any.

Now, I doubt if I ever will.

It takes me too long to make a good pen (due to my disability), without ruining it with a poorly plated clip.

Time we all stopped buying them until the manufacturers get their act together.[!]

 

[DCBluesman]

Spray the parts with Krylon. It's a tough plastic that will dry quickly and extend the wear significantly.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by wayneis
<br />What did Craft Supply say when you called to complain?

craneman54 yes you can coat them if you or someone you know has a powder coat system.

Wayne

I hadn't thought about complaining. Hopefully Nils will see this thread and respond. On the other hand, I do believe that Monday I will call and complain.

 

[Daniel]

that theme clips only come in 24k gold, stuck out for me when I made the Humungo pen list. I decided at that time to only make pens with these clips that have matching finishes on the pens themselves. As in only 24k pens are available for having theme clips. I also have comments on my web site about the various finishes. My pens are also priced with the quality of the finish in mind. Most customers still opt for the 24k. I personally have become a titanium or Platinum fan.
I do see it as an oversight on the suppliers part that they have not expended the theme clip selection to include not only the other platings. but they are not available for many of the pen styles. of course this could be an outright choice they make due to lack of demand etc. but in at least one case you can get them clips for a euro style pen but not the American style.
I know I spent a huge amount of time to make theme clips, custom bands and even the birthstone caps available to my customers through my web site. so far it seems to be a huge amount of time that was wasted. I will see what the holidays bring.

 

[wayneis]

I have always made it a habbit not to make problems public until I have first talked it over with the party that I bought the item from. Then if I cannot get the party to fix the problem I'll warn others. Thats the same courtesy that I would want if someone had a problem with something that they had bought from me and had a problem.

Wayne

 

[swm6500]

Well said Wayne.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by wayneis
<br />I have always made it a habbit not to make problems public until I have first talked it over with the party that I bought the item from. Then if I cannot get the party to fix the problem I'll warn others. Thats the same courtesy that I would want if someone had a problem with something that they had bought from me and had a problem.

Wayne

Wayne, that is your approach and I respect it. Mine is a bit different. Even though we have a friendly relationship with one employee of CSUSA that does not make the company a friend. The company is a business. We owe them nothing other than payment for the goods we purchase. They owe us quality merchandise that will support the reputation they may wish to maintain.
Granted, with some of the smaller start-up companies, like Arizona Silhouette and Bear Tooth Woods, we may have a more personal relationship. I might, and have, handled quetions differently with them.
CSUSA does not need me to be their PR Spin Doctor.
A reason for this forum existing is to share experiences. That I did.
I stated facts then expressed my opinion based on those facts.

 

[Bill Baumbeck]

Hi Frank,

I would like to respond to your complaint regarding the platings that are on the specialty clips. Keep in mind that I was a pen maker before I became a supplier.

The specialty clips offered by us (Arizona Silhouette), Craft Supplies and others are advertised as being plated in 24k, 10k and upgrade gold. It is no secret that any gold plating, other than gold titanium, are guaranteed to wear at some point in time. Using any part plated with the three above mentioned platings on a 'high end' pen (gold titanium) is just asking for trouble. Having spent some time years ago as a gunsmith this could easily be compared to a 'cold blue' versus a 'hot dip blue'. 'Cold blue' just doesn't stand up to the test of time.

"Theme clips are usually used on premium, custom order or gift pens".
90% of the theme clips we sell are for slimline pens in the 24k,10k and upgrade gold platings. The remaining 10% are for European and flat top styles in the same platings as the slimlines. There is not a demand that would justify the cost of stocking the higher end platings on the specialty clips.

"We pay extra for these and have, in my opinion, the right to expect good service from them." Again, I remind you, that the 24k, 10k and upgrade gold platings will wear. No if, ands or buts about it - these platings will wear.

"A reason for this forum existing is to share experiences. That I did. I stated facts then expressed my opinion based on those facts." Frank, again, if you were paying attention to the advertised platings on these components you have no real complaint. Soft platings are going to wear.

Now the one statement that kind of got my 'hackles' up: "Even though we have a friendly relationship with one employee of CSUSA that does not make the company a friend. The company is a business. We owe them nothing other than payment for the goods we purchase. They owe us quality merchandise that will support the reputation they may wish to maintain." You are correct. We, as suppliers, owe our customers quality in what our customers purchase. However, when the description of the product you are ordering is accurate and you personally know that a soft plating will wear, how can you sit at your computer and post the message that you did? It just doesn't make sense to me. That's like asking a .218 Bee to perform the same as a 150gr 30/06 round at 500 meters.

While I cannot speak directly for Berea, Craft Supplies, HUT or other suppliers I can tell you that we (as suppliers) are always looking for and developing new and better kits, accessories, etc. If you don't like what we offer then you can always buy from someone else. If you believe that you can do it better then any supplier out there then I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is and do so (no disrespect intended).

BB

 

[Thumbs]

I find validity in the arguments of both sides.

Disappointment in the quality of a product even when buyer and seller both know the basis for that disapointment does not make the product less disappointing.

It does keep the buyer seaching for a better product and lets the seller know that he has to keep looking for a better product, too. Otherwise, a crafty competitor will be taking his business when the crafty competitor finds the better product first!

So to my mind, complaints about quality are always good for business. They provide a spur to sellers to give the best they can and assure end users that both suppliers and crafters are looking for the best product and best price. Sounds like a win-win combo as long as we remember this is business and not TOO personal. However, when it's your bread and butter, that can be rather difficult at times!

IMHO....... []

 

[jwoodwright]

Would a clear powder coating give extra wear to the gold? How much would this add to the cost? Would the suppliers be willing to do this? Would the powder coat be too thick and affect hole on clip, thus causing problems mounting clip?

 

[Rifleman1776]

This is a reply to Bill Baumbeck's comments about my (gripe) posting.
First, Bill, I don't mind keeping this at the level of a debate. But your comments edged uncomforatbly close to a personal attack. e.g. "..if you were paying attention..." I didn't like that and will explain why shortly.
The essence of your disagreement with my comments seems to be that you believe I either ignored the fact that softer platings wear fast(er) or am not capable of having learned that fact.
Some background on why I made the posting in the first place. The clip in question is on one of my very first pens, a European. It is less than a perfect turning job. I would find it unacceptable today. Until recently it sat in a drawer unused. Recently I changed the refill to red and use only two days month briefly for a particular task. As stated earlier it shows plating wear. The wear was rapid with very little handling or use. This is completely unacceptable and dissapointing.
I don't recall what plating it has, I believe it may be 10K as I ordered from CSUSA as one of their 'Create-Your-Own' pens, those are offered only in 10K.
However, with my initial kit orders, I was confused, possibly mislead by the CSUSA advertising copy. Like most people, I knew that higher karat gold jewelry is considered more desirable and luxurious. The explanation for 24K is twelve pages before the Euro CYO section. In part, it says in pure Madison Avenue advertising prose, "...share the same quality components found in our more expensive pens and are plated with 24K gold with epoxy topcoat TO INCREASE WEAR RESISTANCE." (emphasis added by me) A slick lawyer could probaly defend that. But to most beginners, who have not had the experience of dissapointment or advice from this forum, that sounds like a good thing. After all, they are saying the topcoat is there to INCREASE WEAR RESISTANCE.
So, I discount your statement of "It is no secret that any gold plating, other than gold titanium, are guaranteed to wear at some point in time." A beginner does not know that. And to many, it is, indeed a secret. My impression as a beginner was that 24K was the most desirable. I did not then know about the titanium platings.
Further, the comment I resent, "...if you were paying attention to the advertised platings on these components....". I don't like being talked down to like that. [!]
The fact is, my latest orders, including one with you, were placed before I noticed the wear problem on the pen in question. I might have rethought using theme clips anymore in the future.
You quoted a comment I made that "got my (your) hackles up." Then you quote it and say, "You are correct." Thanks, didn't mean to anger you with facts.
Actually, to be fair, I understand where you are coming from. What has happened here, I believe, is that experienced folks tend to forget the stumbling, learning process at the beginning. When I was teaching computer usage to beginners, I always kept in mind, "if they don't know, they don't know." Kinda obvious but easily forgotten. I have told beginners to use the mouse to move the cursor when they didn't know what a 'mouse' or 'cursor' was.
I believe CSUSA description are confusing and less than candid. Those on your web site are unequivocal. You tell it like it is. But visits to your site came after the fact, unfortunately.
Part of my problem with what I consider unacceptably rapid wear on these clips is that mass manufacturing and plating is so cheap. Similar jewelry findings can be purchased at a few dollars per gross by importers and often are resold at a few dollars per dozen.
As a former gunsmith, you, undoubtedly know that home or shop plating equipment can be purchased and the plating solutions are fairly reasonable. A small object, e.g. size of a mans ring, uses and infinitesimally small amount of precious metal. When it comes to mass production the cost is equally tiny. The importers can afford to buy and provide better quality products.
Your challenge in the last paragraph is interesting. I may, yet, find a product I can import and resell at a handsome profit. I have looked at several items: cap and ball blackpowder revolvers, wool blankets, Chinese herbal medicines and others. None really met my parameters of being able to resell without giving up the freedoms that have come with retirement.
Final thought on why there might not be a demand for these clips on higher end platings. Uh, they aren't offered. I do wonder why an item like the clips that are used for personalized 'special' pens aren't made with top quality materials.

 

[Bill Baumbeck]

Frank,

I was not "talking down" to you nor was my post a 'personal attack' (I just love these politically correct terms!). My post was an attempt to shed some light on the problems that you or others are experiencing with the softer platings.

BB

 

[wdcav1952]

This discussion brings up an interesting point. Nearly 25 years ago I bought my girlfriend an engagement ring she was foolish enough to accept. Today, that ring is in pretty good shape, even though it has been through a lot in nearly a quarter of a century. A few years later I bought my daughter some costume jewelry that she wanted at a toy store. The plating of that stuff wore off within a few weeks. That really upset me. They were both gold in color, you would think that they would both hold up and that one wouldn't wear like that. They should have warned me as I wasn't very experienced at buying rings and such. Now these suppliers want us to figure out for ourselves that a 2 buck item is going to wear out, who do they think we are?!? They must think we are a bunch of rocket scientists or something. I think we all need to walk to the window (or door) of our shop, throw open the window (or door), stick your head out and yell "I'm madder than Hell and I'm not taking it anymore!!"

 

[Rifleman1776]

Originally posted by Bill Baumbeck
<br />Frank,

I was not "talking down" to you nor was my post a 'personal attack' (I just love these politically correct terms!). My post was an attempt to shed some light on the problems that you or others are experiencing with the softer platings.

BB

O.K., that part is forgotten. Keep in mind, I did say your web site explains platings very well. Not like others that are, in my opinion, misleading. When it says "for increased wear resistance", I take [now 'took' as in past-tense] it to mean increased over their other products. In fact they were misstating something with their corporate fingers crossed behind their back(sides). And I buy from you and intend to continue doing so. It is because of your explanation, and this forum, that I have gone to titanium where available.

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

Frank, it is possible that the plating on your pen clip was defective.

Let me backup a bit.

I’ve been playing around customizing slimlines lately. This morning I was looking at a pen that I completed the day before. There was a flaw in the finish that I wanted to take care of so I buffed the assembled pen with jeweler’s rouge (which is finer the white diamond). To my surprise the plating came right off the clip with barely the slightest touch. Since the clip was CA glued in I was stuck. (pun intended)

I figured maybe if I buff out the nib I could at least make it match the clip. To my surprise I couldn’t get the plating off. White diamond wouldn’t take it off. I had to use tripoli aggressively before the plating started to come off.

Let me back even farther.

A few days ago in a different thread there was some comments about why pen kits are so expensive

Quantity manufacturing makes per item costs very-very low. Particularly from third world countries.

When plating in large quantities, sometimes a few parts get passed when they shouldn’t, especially when profit per kit is very low and when they come from third world countries.

Lesson Learned.

 

[wayneis]

Originally posted by Rifleman
<br />

Originally posted by wayneis
<br />I have always made it a habbit not to make problems public until I have first talked it over with the party that I bought the item from. Then if I cannot get the party to fix the problem I'll warn others. Thats the same courtesy that I would want if someone had a problem with something that they had bought from me and had a problem.

Wayne

Wayne, that is your approach and I respect it. Mine is a bit different. Even though we have a friendly relationship with one employee of CSUSA that does not make the company a friend. The company is a business. We owe them nothing other than payment for the goods we purchase. They owe us quality merchandise that will support the reputation they may wish to maintain.
Granted, with some of the smaller start-up companies, like Arizona Silhouette and Bear Tooth Woods, we may have a more personal relationship. I might, and have, handled quetions differently with them.
CSUSA does not need me to be their PR Spin Doctor.
A reason for this forum existing is to share experiences. That I did.
I stated facts then expressed my opinion based on those facts.

Frank,

I didn't name a company, that happens to be my policy with anything that I buy whether its a pen kit, car or a big mac. I was not sticking up for Craft Supply but I will say that you seem to enjoy taking pot-shots at them when ever you get a chance. I don't see how you think that you or any of us will ever get any better service out of any company by continually bashing them. Nuff said.

Wayne

 

[Bill Baumbeck]

Wayne,

You make an excellent point: "I don't see how you think that you or any of us will ever get any better service out of any company by continually bashing them."

BB

 

[Rifleman1776]

Wayne said, "I didn't name a company, that happens to be my policy with anything that I buy whether its a pen kit, car or a big mac. I was not sticking up for Craft Supply but I will say that you seem to enjoy taking pot-shots at them when ever you get a chance. I don't see how you think that you or any of us will ever get any better service out of any company by continually bashing them. Nuff said."

I don't seek to "bash" anyone. I state experiences and criticize where I see fit. CSUSA is one of the largest suppliers for our craft, they will naturally have more satisfied/unsatisfied customers than others. The problem with the clip was an exceptional occurrance. The plating wore off almost instantly. That is unacceptable. 24K platings (that was 10K, supposedly more durable) I have had experience with wear quite well in normal usage. Their catalog, in my opinion, is written to sell, not educate. To say their product gives increased wear resistance without comparing to other products is outright misleading. Companies will not rise to meet customers needs if they do not know about problems. I am not targeting CSUSA or anyone. But comments, good or otherwise, will be made when earned. If you accept inferior products and service (from any company) that is what you can expect to get forever. I have owned businesses and can recall times problems were brought to my attention that I had not previously known about. Those problems were corrected but if a customer had not brought them to my attention, they might never have been solved. I will be contanct CSUSA today to express my unhappiness with the durability of this, and other clips. I note, I am not the only one here that sees these clips as being inferior quality.

 

[Old Griz]

Originally posted by Rifleman
<br /><b>Their catalog, in my opinion, is written to sell, not educate</b>.

I was always under the impression that catalogs were written to <b>sell you merchandise</b>... <u><b>including books that would educate you</b></u>....

 

[wayneis]

OK Frank I have to ask you one more question. If that person who had the problem with whatever it was that you sold them had say taken out an add in the local news paper complaining about you and your products instead of calling you first how would you feel. By first calling you, you had the opportunity to fix the problem and not have your companies reputation harmed. Thats not the way that I see you work here though, I've read many posts by you where you accuse Craft Supply for everything from price gouging to an outright conspiracy to make customers spend more money because you had to purchase a new drill bit.

I rather like how Craft Supply USA works with us, offering sales to the IAP and Yahoo that is not offered to the general public and always trying to introduce new kits and products that keep us in business. I happen to enjoy the relationship that we as an organization have built with this Company, and it is not just one friend there. I have called up and talked to several people there and I have visited their store and every person that I talked to was just as helpful and plesant to converse with as Nils. The reason that we have that relationship with them is because of how many of us have worked with and treated them over the years. Some of the kits that we now enjoy are the result of ideas that some people have brought to their attention. Do you really want to give all this up?

All I am trying to say is that everyone of us should treat these Companies the same way that we would want someone to treat us or our Company and I don't think that hashing out problems or putting down products or Companies in a news paper or a public forum is the way to go about it.

Lastly, I have also used a couple of the sports clips, one in fact was for my Wife and she carries it with her all of the time and it still has not lost the gold color and by the sounds of it others have had the same experence. Maybe you just got a bad part which happens no matter what the product is. You are writing off a whole line of items because of one bad part. Now several other people have stated that because you had a problem with one part they won't buy them anymore. To me, everyone is loosing here. Well as usual, I have said way more than what I intended to.

Wayne

Originally posted by Rifleman
<br />Wayne said, "I didn't name a company, that happens to be my policy with anything that I buy whether its a pen kit, car or a big mac. I was not sticking up for Craft Supply but I will say that you seem to enjoy taking pot-shots at them when ever you get a chance. I don't see how you think that you or any of us will ever get any better service out of any company by continually bashing them. Nuff said."

I don't seek to "bash" anyone. I state experiences and criticize where I see fit. CSUSA is one of the largest suppliers for our craft, they will naturally have more satisfied/unsatisfied customers than others. The problem with the clip was an exceptional occurrance. The plating wore off almost instantly. That is unacceptable. 24K platings (that was 10K, supposedly more durable) I have had experience with wear quite well in normal usage. Their catalog, in my opinion, is written to sell, not educate. To say their product gives increased wear resistance without comparing to other products is outright misleading. Companies will not rise to meet customers needs if they do not know about problems. I am not targeting CSUSA or anyone. But comments, good or otherwise, will be made when earned. If you accept inferior products and service (from any company) that is what you can expect to get forever. I have owned businesses and can recall times problems were brought to my attention that I had not previously known about. Those problems were corrected but if a customer had not brought them to my attention, they might never have been solved. I will be contanct CSUSA today to express my unhappiness with the durability of this, and other clips. I note, I am not the only one here that sees these clips as being inferior quality.

 

[Rifleman1776]

First Tom's comment: Yes catalogs are to sell. But generally the best way to sell is to tell (educate) your potential customer about your product or service in an understandable and accurate (truthfull) manner. When they (CSUSA) says a product is designed "to increase wear resistance", and they really mean 'this is our worst product', that is misleading.
Now Wayne's: As a former newspaper editor and strong believer in the First Amendment, I would support public criticizm of my business. I might not like it. But, what the hey, if they are right, I would accpet the licks, try to correct the problem and move on. I believe where we differ is how we view the relationship with a "Company" (I note you capitalized Companies). Oh,well. They may be nice people. That's good. But if crunch came to profit, bottom line would rule. Yes, I believe that odd-ball sizes are deliberate with the intent of selling drill bits and other specialty items. And, yes, I do not like that. But, as a free American, I have made choices accordingly. I limit the number of styles I turn and I have other work/woodshop pursuits. They lost some business because of that practice. They aren't alone. HUT, and others, have some products that require odd-ball equipment purchases. I don't buy those either. We all make choices. I criticize when I believe it is justified. And, please also note the many times I have complimented when I believe that has been earned. One of the greatest compliments that can be given a company is to be a repeat customer. With respect to CSUSA, and others, I am a repeat customer. Now, I'm going to call them and register this complaint. This topic, for me, hopefully, is FINI. Cheers, Frank

 

[Ron in Drums PA]

I respectfully disagree with you Frank.

Paranoia will destroy ya

 

[nilsatcraft]

Just to chime in- Frank and I spoke this morning and he was very courteous. We feel that the clip that he received was defective since none of our platings would ever wear off that quickly, regardless of the plating, unless it were defective somehow. We sent out replacment clips and discussed our differences- then ended the call on a friendly note. If for any reason a customer is dissatisfied with our products, we simply guarantee to make it right. That's how we do business. Thanks to all those who backed us up on this. No hard feelings and let's keep on making some great pens.