Pen turning on HF lathe?

[railrider1920]

Hi folks,
This is my first post out of the introduction area. Hope I put this in the right area.

I got a HF lathe for my wife. I didn't want to spend a bunch of money on something I wasn't sure we'd use a bunch. Turns out we haven't really used it much.
Well, now I'd really like to start turning some pens. The lathe I got is at this link:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45276

The spindle off the motor is threaded, I think it's 3/4 10TPI, so no morse (SP?) taper. Besides getting a
completely different lathe, what would you kind folks here suggest I do to turn pens on this lathe:
1)Get a spindle adapter and then get a mandrel to fit that, such as this one at amazon (from PSI) http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cach...tor&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=firefox-a

2)Or should I get a 4 jaw chuck such as the one at this link and then get
a mandrel to fit it?: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=31223

I remember reading a thread here about a member that makes mandrels. Does this person also make the
adaptor I would need? Are there any mandrels in particular that I should stay away from?

I'm not sure which type of mandrel to get. Not sure what type of pens I'd like to make.
Probably the ones that are a little bit larger, they feel a little better in my hand then those
that are thinner. I do know that I already have someone that wants me to make them a few pens
that take the gel pen refills.

I'd appreciate any suggestions anyone has. That is probably enough questions for now. I'm sure there will be more later.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[Marc Phillips]

The manual lists a spur drive, face plate - does the spur drive slide into a MT through the threaded drive?

It seems kinda weird that the tailstock is a MT2 but the drive is not...

Is that the case?

 

[LostintheWoods]

Rob, first off, are you certain that you don't have a morse taper in your spindle? Because most lathes have a threaded spindle, as yours does (which, by the way, is more likely 3/4-16), but the spindle is hollow in order to facilitate turning long pieces which can extend into or through the spindle. If not, what you would need to do is get some type of chuck which will accept your mandrel. Most of the pens use the 'A' mandrel, or 7mm. A few of the larger pens use the 'B' mandrel. But you mentioned gel writers, which are a Parker-type refill, and can be turned on the 'A' mandrel. Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions.

 

[Fred]

Go to your local Woodcraft or Rockler and take a class. Then sell the troublesome lathe you now have and get a wood turning lathe and one that has variable speeds. You will spend way to much time adapting the lathe you have now not to mention the money that you could spend on some great woods/tools/waxes/CA/ etc. All of which you will need for this hobby - not to mention other goodies that make this "hobby" a joy to be envolved it. []

 

[twoofakind]

I remember reading some time ago about the HF lathes. There is one they have that is of decent quality,I think it is this one http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34706. The one pictured is noted to have a lot of flex in the bed. The last one,IIRC, had to have a couple of adapters stacked to get it to work with the more common spindle threads and even then it had quite a bit of runout. Your link did not work, but the PSI adapter will get you from 3/4x10tpi to 1x8tpi, but then you will need to get a collet chuck which can get expensive very quickly. When all is said and done, you may want to scope out the classifieds or the internet for a used lathe that will work a little better.

 

[DCBluesman]

Sometimes the simplest ways are the best. All you need is a live center for the tailstock and a dead center for the headstock. Turn barrels between centers, one at a time. HF will have the two different centers for just a few bucks each if your lathe does not have them already.

 

[its_virgil]

We've been over this before. Unfortunately not all lathes have a Morse Taper in the headstock. Most major brands do and some made in China lathes don't. Herin is the problem...not all lathes sold by HF do. So, the solution(s) are: (1) Determine if the lathe in question has a taper and if so, do as Lou suggested. Several members here are now turning pens between centers without a mandrel; or purchase a mandrel with the appropriate Morse Taper arbor. All of our suppliers sell them in MT1 and MT2.(2) If no taper is in the headstock, then determine the thread size and pitch and then find a mandrel which will screw onto those threads or get an adapter to make a screw on mandrel work. PSI has three sizes and others are available with some searching. Here are the PSI mandrels: <http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?> Also, http://www.bestwoodtools.com has spindle adapters. The more things that yous crew onto the lathe spindle (adapters, extensions, etc)to more you contribute to runout. (3) A collet chuck and appropriate collet(several are abvailable) that will screw onto your spindle is an option but may be a little expensive. I've been where you've been and I know what frustration you are experiencing. Good luck and I do hope you solve this and can turn some pens soon to releive the tension that is building in your shoulder muscles. []
Do a good turn daily!
Don

 

[Randy_]

Rob:

Lots of questions and not an easy answer. First off, I wonder if your wife has a sister? I bought my ex-wife a new lawn mower as a present and she wasn't thrilled!![]

First off, let me ask you what sort of stuff your wife was planning on turning? The answer may help us determine if it is better to make the current lathe work or whether you should get another lathe. (The lathe you have is not the best if your primary interest is pens and other small projects.)

Given your comment about money, I am going to assume it is a significant concern and approach this from the point of view of finding a cost conscious solution. For those who don't know, this lathe does not have a MT in the spindle so the first thing would be the purchase of a spindle adapter like this one.

http://www.amazon.com/PSI-Woodworking-LA341018-Headstock-Spindle/dp/B000KI8CBQ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1194647413&sr=8-7

The next thing you will need is a screw-on mandrel available only from PSI.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/pkm-bl.html

And the third thing you will need is a 60° live center like this one. The one that came with your lathe will most likely not do because the angle of the point is not correct for use with a pen mandrel.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/h3408

A four jaw chuck is a useful accessory; but is usually not an accessory that a beginner needs. Wait on that until you have some experience. And the chuck you linked to is not the one you want, anyway. The jaws on that chuck are individually adjustable making centering of work quite cumbersome and they aren't really the best for chucking up pen mandrels. Down the road, what you might decide to acquire is a scroll chuck where all four jaws are linked mechanically and adjust together. They start at about $100 and go up from there.

The mandrels that are made by Joe Collozo are without threads on the headstock end and require the use of a collet chuck....another $100 item that you don't need right now. Within limits, mandrels are mandrels and one is pretty much as good as another. The PSI mandrel I mentioned is a 7mm or "A" sized mandrel. Berea makes some kits that require a slightly larger mandrel that the call a "B" mandrel. Again, that is something you can worry about later when you have more experience. There are pretty close to 200 pen kits that you can turn on a 7mm mandrel.

That being said, I basically agree with Frederick that you should give some serious thought to selling the HF lathe and buying a different one unless you are in to making furniture and need the 40" of stock length.

PSI as an economical little lathe for about $160.

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/tclplus.html

You can find the same lathe under the Wilton name on Amazon.com for around $100. This too would be a starter lathe that you would probably choose to upgrade if you continue to turn pens.

There is lots more to discuss; but this should give you a few things to think about for now.

 

[MArruda]

Don't get that lathe from PSI! It's just as cheap as yours you already have. If you compare the pics, it looks exactly like the mini lathe sold by HF.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95607

I looked at it at HF last time I was there. The build quality is pretty bad. It really feels cheap, and I wouldn't feel safe turning on it- there was about 1/32 of runout in the live center on the tailstock- not much, but noticeable by hand. Also, the lock on the tail stock is pretty chintsy.... I'd look for better. I just bought a mini lathe at a woodworking show from Western Tool Supply. It's made by Pioneer. I'd never heard of them, but I walked to the next booth about 10 times and compared it to a jet- almost the same thing. Different motor, rated same HP but higher amperage so it's a stronger motor, all controls felt just as smooth and the pioneer has belt change and electronic speed control within the belt ranges. I got it down to $185, out the door, including the bed extension.

http://www.pioneersi.com/product.htm?pid=577277

-Michael

 

[DCBluesman]

I don't wish to start a fight, but this lathe comes with a drive center on the main spindle in the headstock. While the picture in the manual is poor, it appears to be a dead center and it doesn't matter if it's 30-degrees or 60-degrees. It also comes with MT-2 tailstock and a live center for the MT-2 tailstock. You don't NEED to have a mandrel or anything to hold the mandrel. Hold the blank with the bushings between the two centers and turn. It shouldn't cost anything to get started...at least not anything in terms of the lathe. The manual is here http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/45000-45999/45276.pdf

 

[Randy_]

Lou is certainly correct that the illustrations in the HF manual are not of the best quality. But I think it is more likely the HF drive center is a spur center rather than a dead center. Dead centers are more typically associated with engine lathes(for turning metallic stock) and I think it unlikely that dead centers would be supplied as standard accessories for wood lathes. The other clue is the language in the manual describing the method for setting the drive center in the end of the wooden stock.

Since this particular lathe HF does not have a MT in the spindle, it is likely that turning between centers will require some custom accessories be created to be successful.

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by MArruda
<br />Don't get that lathe from PSI! It's just as cheap as yours you already have. If you compare the pics, it looks exactly like the mini lathe sold by HF.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95607

I looked at it at HF last time I was there. The build quality is pretty bad. It really feels cheap, and I wouldn't feel safe turning on it- there was about 1/32 of runout in the live center on the tailstock- not much, but noticeable by hand. Also, the lock on the tail stock is pretty chintsy....

You can't always properly evaluate a tool by simply looking at it. There are a number of IAP members who own or have owned this lathe or its generic cousin, the Wilton, and have offered the opinion that is is a very satisfactory tool for the money. No one has ever claimed it was a top-of-the-line tool and not everyone has pockets deep enough to afford a shop full of high end tools. For those who need an economical alternative, this lathe is a serviceable alternative.

Originally posted by MArruda
<br />.....I just bought a mini lathe at a woodworking show from Western Tool Supply. It's made by Pioneer. I'd never heard of them, but I walked to the next booth about 10 times and compared it to a jet- almost the same thing. Different motor, rated same HP but higher amperage so it's a stronger motor, all controls felt just as smooth and the pioneer has belt change and electronic speed control within the belt ranges. I got it down to $185, out the door, including the bed extension.

http://www.pioneersi.com/product.htm?pid=577277

You got an excellent price on your lathe; but I doubt it is made by Pioneer.....more likely, they are just another distributor that has slapped their label on a Chinese made tool. Check out the PSI TLCPROVS. It looks identical except for the paint job and the listed specs are identical, too, except for the weight and they never get that right anyway.

 

[Glass Scratcher]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />

Originally posted by MArruda
<br />Don't get that lathe from PSI! It's just as cheap as yours you already have. If you compare the pics, it looks exactly like the mini lathe sold by HF.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95607

I looked at it at HF last time I was there. The build quality is pretty bad. It really feels cheap, and I wouldn't feel safe turning on it- there was about 1/32 of runout in the live center on the tailstock- not much, but noticeable by hand. Also, the lock on the tail stock is pretty chintsy....

You can't always properly evaluate a tool by simply looking at it. There are a number of IAP members who own or have owned this lathe or its generic cousin, the Wilton, and have offered the opinion that is is a very satisfactory tool for the money. No one has ever claimed it was a top-of-the-line tool and not everyone has pockets deep enough to afford a shop full of high end tools. For those who need an economical alternative, this lathe is a serviceable alternative.

Snippery Snee

The Wilton 99177 is indeed a cousin to the HF lathe and a PSI and a ShopFox.

The Wilton brand is part of WMH Tool Co. which also makes Jet lathes and tools

I have 2 of the Wiltons. Bought the first one off of Amazon. It had a problem nothing severe, but I was not happy, so I called the # in the manual asking to buy the $5 part. They took my information and sent a whole new lathe. I called them back about a call tag for returning the 1st one and they said don't worry about it. It would cost more than it was worth to freight it back and repair it to sell as remanufactured.

Over all I like it as a starter lathe and for pens. Just don't get too heavy handed with the tools, you'll bog down the motor.

 

[railrider1920]

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry, I've been away from the computer for a while or I'd have gotten back to everyone sooner.

Marc, it is a screw on spur drive. It is weird that the tailstock has the MT and not the headstock.

LostintheWoods, I emailed HF and had asked them if the chuck they sell would fit that particular lathe and it will.
The chuck is listed as 3/4" X 10 TPI, so that is what the spindle is too. There is a small hole in the spindle, but not
a MT unfortunately.

Fred, unfortunately, I don't have a rockler or woodcraft in my neck of the woods. I'll have to check to see if there is one
in NYC as I go there a few times a month. Yeah, I probably should get a better lathe. I'll probably turn some pens and see if I really get into doing it.
If I do, I'll probably look at getting a better one.

DCBluesman, thanks for that idea. I'll check it out next time I'm there at HF.

its-virgil, thanks. I think I'm leaning toward the adaptor and screw on mandrel or between centers.

Randy, lol. Yeah, she has a sister...trust me, you'd be better off with your ex...
Thanks for the links and the info.

Thanks for all the info and opinions offered. I'll digest this and see where I go from here. I'm thinking
about giving it a try with the spindle adaptor. The tail stock does have some play in it, so I'll have to take that into
consideration too. Hmmm, I should really look into a different lath.
Rob

 

[MArruda]

I know you can't judge a book by it's cover, but when it walks like a duck and talks like a duck... With almost all these tools being made in Chiwan, it's no real surprise that they all come out of a hand full of factories. That PSI you mentioned I'd bet is made by the same OEM as the Pioneer. If you compare the castings on the PSI, the Pioneer and the Jet, it's a good bet they're made at the same foundry. Even the Rykon bed is the same from what I can tell, and the head & tail are just slightly taller. Impersonation is the sincerest form of flattery, but from my experience in tools, if the resemblence is uncanny, it's common that at least that part that is so simmilar probably came from the same factory. Now, build quality on the motors, electronics, bearings and tooling... that's a different story. Some things you pay for the name, some things there is a difference. Sealed ball bearings, shielded ball bearings, amperage on the motor- no matter what the peak HP given is- quality of the PCB in the speed control... there's a lot of variance here.

My comarison of the wilton/entry level from PSI and the unit from HF is based pretty closely on the tailstock. The rest is carbon copy, but the tailstock was the indication, to me at least, that the units are pretty close to identical. The locking mechanism on top of the TS is simmilar, but the plastic hand wheel is the same. If they're not from the same OEM, I'm sorry for the comparison.

I'm of the mindset that the best possible tool should be purchased for the money you have. I will tell you up front that I'm biased away from most, if not all, new tools. I bought the Pioneer because it was a great deal and I couldn't find a vintage lathe in the smaller size without cutting down the ways. As with all things, as tools were and are being moved off shore for their production, quality goes down. I have a two Dewalt RASs- a GW and an MBF. I'm in the process of restoring them, and the accuracy is phenomenal. The GW is about 1948, the MBF 1953. They compare favorably in rigidity, build quality and accuracy to ANY RAS made today. Same with my Unisaw (1969) and shaper (1965). I also bought them all for a song. Better tools cheaper because people think that they have to have new to have quality. I've paid less that $800 for all four of those tools. If I bought new units made off shore, it would have run me about $4500.

Sorry for my rant, but it bothers me that tool manufacturers proliferate the myth that all new tools are better than old, and a lot of consumers support it. If you're looking for a really good lathe that will last forever, and you want a full size bed, check out your local Craigslist and Pennysaver for a used one. if you had the $$, I'd say go to a used tooling broker, but they're prices are at a premium and they normally only sell industrial quality tools. As the older generation of woodworkers dies off, they're survivors are selling off their tools because 1- they don't see the value and quality of them, and 2- people in my age range (I'm 23) would mostly rather be on the web chatting or playing video games than working with wood to create beautiful things. There's a lot of deals out there if you just look.

If you are only interested in buying new, compare $ to quality. If hypothetically that PSI unit happens to be the same as the HF one, buying the HF would give you an easier warantee and save you the money on shipping, all things being equal. Manufacturer name means nothing anymore. Until you get up in to industrial quality tooling, it's all very simmilar. With it all being less that stellar quality, warantee and ease of return/ repair is high on my list of priorities for new tools. as a for instance, my dad has a 1 year old Delta shopmaster drill press. It needs a rebuild on the quill because the bearings are going south already. they weren't a prefect fit originally and the run out is getting increasingly worse. On the other hand, I've heard of old HF DPs that cost half the price lasting for years and years. Quality and longevity have nothing to do with name anymore, at least on low to mid range tools. Now, get a Clausing or Powermatic DP, and there's a difference... but then you have to pay more for one tool that you did on the entire shop!


Sorry for my extended rant... I hope it helps someone, somewhere with their tool purchases. It's no fun the spend good, hard earned money on tools only to see them fail long before they should.

-Michael

PS- just a heads up if you all didn't already know; HF has a cheapie MT2 drill chuck. I picked one up and it's not too bad. a little sloppy in the gear drive for the jaws, but tightens down okay. Price? It's on sale right now (you have to print up the ad online and take it to the store) for $4.99. I figure it should last for a while until I can find a good one inexpensively.

 

[MArruda]

If someone decides to get one of the HF pen lathes (possibly Wilton OEM) they're in the latest HF ad on sale for $99.

 

[desert1pocket]

That is the lathe I started with, and I can say first hand that it has more problems than you might even be able to imagine. I did manage to get a few half way decent pens and small bowls made despite all of it's issues, but I would strongly suggest putting money towards a different lathe rather than on accessories for that one. I sure wish I had. I spent money on the adapters only to end up turning everything betwen centers.

Here are some of the issues;
1)No MT on headstock, and 2 adapters required to use a mandrel. The run-out is almost unacceptable before stacking adapters, and completly unusable with them.
2)Motor is half as powerful as it claims to be, and I had 3 of them burn up doing very light turning. Luckily I bought the warranty and the replacements were free.
3)The switch liked to short out due to vibration until I made a silcone barrier between it and the housing
4)The tailstock design makes it impossible to get it parallel to the bed, much less lined up with the headstock. The act of tightening the nut on the bottom will unvarialbly move the whole assembly.
5)Severe flex in bed compounds the above tailstock issues.
6)The supplied live center is too pointy and too short to be useful for just about anything.
7)The point of the supplied spur center is not alligned with it's interior threads, adding to the already severe run-out.
8)All of the handles are made of cheap plastic which will break in short order.
9)The belt housing is both dangerous and extremely noisy.
10)Even after bolting it to a heavy bench, the vibration made fine work very dificult.
11)It's not even heavy enough to be used as a boat anchor.

On the positive side, the steady rest had no issues, and I learned an extraordinary amount about lathes by trying to make that thing operable. If you can be very safety minded, I would reccomend playing with it to get more familiar with turning, and get a better idea of what your turning needs and priorities are, but I would not spend any more money on it.

 

[alamocdc]

Okay, I had (notice I said had) this lathe. LOML bought it for me for Christmas 6 years ago. The ways are square tube and there was quite a bit of flex when tightening the tail stock. Back then I could not find anything that I could use to turn pens on it, so I sold it. The spur drive screws on the spindle and HF told me that no other accessory was avalable (at least from them). I believe that someone now makes an adapter that will take the 3/4" x 10 tpi up to a standard 1" x 8 tpi, but I can't remember who off hand. This adapter would allow her to use a scroll chuck and a home made dead center for turning between centers, or the use of a collet chuck to hold a mandrel. However, you could also buy an extra screw on spur center and grind it to a dead center and try that. You couldn't use the bushings for 7mm pens like slimlines and euros, but larger pens would work.

Someone mentioned the PSI lathes as being the same crap HF has for their mini, but I have to disagree. We have several members who use the turncrafter pro and like it. It even got a best value by one of my woodworking mags a year or so ago, and is a pretty good deal if you know all she wants to turn is pens and other small objects.

Bottom line... if it were me, I'd dump the lathe (or keep it for spindle work (but I'm not sure it's good for even that with a single drive type) and buy the best you can afford. If that's a Jet mini, go for it. If it's a Turncrafter Pro, you can save a few bucks by checking Amazon or getting it from Woodturnings. JMO, but it comes from experience.