Pen Mandrel & Sanding question

[Chuck B]

I have the professional mandrel from Woodcraft the one that can slide into the headstock to adjust length. I think I just bent it about 1/8" has anyone ever thought of or has tried to use a
"hollow steel tube" it would be stronger & less chance to bend?

I am going to pick up some MM from Woodcraft today do you wet sand if so what do you wet sand with water, ?????

Where do you get your MM from? I just saw 2 different types of MM the regular type that has the rubber block & another type that has the rubber block sandwiched in between the MM.

I'm going to try my first CA/BLO finish today. Thanks to the IAP library for the video on how to do this.

Thank you for your responses.

Chuck

 

[scasey88]

Here is where i get my MM from, great price and fast shipping
http://www.woodchipshome.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WC&Product_Code=MMKG1&Category_Code=MM8

if i wet sand i will use water, but for some reason I have had some
bad luck wet sanding, so most of the time i dont wet sand, especially
on wood, others do it all the time with good success, just see what works best for you.

 

[Blind_Squirrel]

Originally posted by recon
<br />I have the professional mandrel from Woodcraft the one that can slide into the headstock to adjust length. I think I just bent it about 1/8" has anyone ever thought of or has tried to use a
"hollow steel tube" it would be stronger & less chance to bend?

I am going to pick up some MM from Woodcraft today do you wet sand if so what do you wet sand with water, ?????

Where do you get your MM from? I just saw 2 different types of MM the regular type that has the rubber block & another type that has the rubber block sandwiched in between the MM.

I'm going to try my first CA/BLO finish today. Thanks to the IAP library for the video on how to do this.

Thank you for your responses.

Chuck

I have both types of the micro mesh. I prefer the type that has the foam pad built in.

 

[RussFairfield]

The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

 

[redfishsc]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

I have had good luck using a small piece of cloth or paper towel to put some friction on the wood to build up some heat (not enough to crack it, which varies wood to wood, and I'd never do this with ebony or snakewood). The heat does good enough in my experience to evaporate the water from the very thin wood on a pen, and it burnishes the surface of the wood nicely.


That being said, I rarely MM my wood blanks if it's going to get a finish-- I use a high-solids varnish that doesn't like polished surfaces (and I'd bet a buck nobody could tell the wood was only sanded to 400 or 600 by the time the finish is buffed). I always MM oily woods that will only get some wax (like ebony or lignum).

 

[Chuck B]

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

Russ,
I ordered your DVD onfinishing pens. I have to do a pen for my BIL so
After watching your short video that is here on CA/BLO finish. finish came out good I let it sit about 1 hour before taking it off the lathe & my fingertps dulled the shine. s back to the lathe & I put 2 coats of Ren wax let it sit about another 1/2 hour took off the lathe & not instead of having a brite shine I now have a satin shine what did I do wrong?

My local Woodcraft ran out of MM so I sanded to 800 grit regulr sandpaper.

 

[RussFairfield]

I noted at the end of the video clip that I don't always get a high gloss either. I think it has to do with the weather, technique, the age of the glue or the BLO, and a few other things. Even the brand of CA can affect the gloss. Waiting a day and buffing or sanding to 12,000 Micro Mesh should take care of that.

And, some folks like the lower gloss.

 

[Chuck B]

Russ,
CA glue is from Woodcrafter & is about 5 months old
(That's when I started turning) BLO just bught at Lowes 1 week ago. Paper towel plain white bounty. Technique I'm a newbie that say's it all []

I just finished a Simline pencil for my dad's girlfriend & this time I watched yourvideo clip then went & did it right away. BEAUTIFUL SHINE [] again sanded to 800 & did the
CA/BLO 5 times.

Russ, Where do you get your CA from? what brand.

Thanks for the video clip RUSS.

& I hope you get my money order for my DVD from you real soon.I can't wait to watch it. [] Is this turning stuff addictive. []

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by recon<br />I have the professional mandrel from Woodcraft the one that can slide into the headstock to adjust length. I think I just bent it about 1/8" has anyone ever thought of or has tried to use a "hollow steel tube" it would be stronger & less chance to bend?

I'm not a materials engineer; but it is hard to understand how a tube would be stronger than a solid mandrel of the same diameter??

 

[Chuck B]

Originally posted by Randy_
<br />

Originally posted by recon<br />I have the professional mandrel from Woodcraft the one that can slide into the headstock to adjust length. I think I just bent it about 1/8" has anyone ever thought of or has tried to use a "hollow steel tube" it would be stronger & less chance to bend?

I'm not a materials engineer; but it is hard to understand how a tube would be stronger than a solid mandrel of the same diameter??

Randy, It is scientific fact I'm not sure how it is myself.
Example get a 1/4" or 1/2" solid bar stock & you'll be able to bend it but you'll never bend a hollow bar of the same diameter.

 

[wood-of-1kind]

I've recently made some replacement shafts out of tool steel in order to replace the worn shaft from the original mandrel set. The portion that goes in the headstock is virtually unbreakable but as mentioned the shaft is meant to be 'replaceable' after normal wear and tear. So far so good, I believe that my tool steel shaft runs truer than the original that came with this set IMO.
-Peter-

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by recon
[brRandy, It is scientific fact I'm not sure how it is myself.
Example get a 1/4" or 1/2" solid bar stock & you'll be able to bend it but you'll never bend a hollow bar of the same diameter.

It's not a scientific fact that I have ever heard of. I'm still skeptical. Any engineers out there??

 

[btboone]

Not true. Per weight, yes and that's why it's done often. Not as stiff as the solid bar of the same size though. You can get nice solid tool steel and other steels from places like MSC or McMaster Carr.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

I have had good luck using a small piece of cloth or paper towel to put some friction on the wood to build up some heat (not enough to crack it, which varies wood to wood, and I'd never do this with ebony or snakewood). The heat does good enough in my experience to evaporate the water from the very thin wood on a pen, and it burnishes the surface of the wood nicely.


That being said, I rarely MM my wood blanks if it's going to get a finish-- I use a high-solids varnish that doesn't like polished surfaces (and I'd bet a buck nobody could tell the wood was only sanded to 400 or 600 by the time the finish is buffed). I always MM oily woods that will only get some wax (like ebony or lignum).

I'll take the bet

 

[Chuck B]

Originally posted by wood-of-1kind
<br />I've recently made some replacement shafts out of tool steel in order to replace the worn shaft from the original mandrel set. The portion that goes in the headstock is virtually unbreakable but as mentioned the shaft is meant to be 'replaceable' after normal wear and tear. So far so good, I believe that my tool steel shaft runs truer than the original that came with this set IMO.
-Peter-

Hey Wood,
I went to my local Woodcrafters Sunday to see if I can get a replacement shaft for my mandrel I have the adjustable one (professional mandrel) they said they don't carry one. But if you have the A or B mandrel they have replacement shafts for $2.99 I'll be dammed if I shell out another $25 for another Professional mandrel.

Wood where did you get the steel from ? did you just buy it & pu threads on it? what was you process?

 

[Randy_]

Originally posted by recon
<br />.....they said they don't carry one. But if you have the A or B mandrel they have replacement shafts for $2.99 I'll be dammed if I shell out another $25 for another Professional mandrel.

I didn't see any "B" mandrels in the Woodcraft catalog.....are you sure they sell the "B" size??

Never seen one of the adjustable mandrel systems in person; but a 7 mm mandrel is a specific diameter regardless of how it attaches to the lathe spindle. You should be able to use "ANY" 7 mm mandrel in your "Professional" collet/arbor. (even one with threads) I think the guy at the Woodcraft store is confused!!

I'll bet you $2.99 that their replacement mandrel "WILL" work 4 U!![][]

 

[Chuck B]

Randy,
Maybe I should have checked them better. I definitely will compare them a lo more closely next time I'm in there.

 

[cozee]

A hollow mandrel will probably vibrate easier than a regular solid mandrel.

I have yet to find a need to wet sand bare wood, but I am stilllearnin'!! After final tooling, I begin sanding, usually no coarser than 220 and work my way up to 1000. After this I begin finishing.

As for BLO and CA, I guess my error is my good fortune. I apply BLO lighty while the blank is slowly turning on the lathe. After application, I buff. I repeat as necessary till the desire pop is reached. With the final buffing I soon after begin applying the CA, with typically 3 sucessive coats of thick set with accelerant. Each coat is wet sanded with 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000, and 4000. These are automotive type paper as I do not use MM. I then buff with Norton Fine Abrasive and finish with Norton Finish Polish. Final step is a coat of some of the new nano-tech Turtle Wax paste. No clouding or low gloss finishes to date. I must be doing something different.

 

[Paul in OKC]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

I have had good luck using a small piece of cloth or paper towel to put some friction on the wood to build up some heat (not enough to crack it, which varies wood to wood, and I'd never do this with ebony or snakewood). The heat does good enough in my experience to evaporate the water from the very thin wood on a pen, and it burnishes the surface of the wood nicely.


That being said, I rarely MM my wood blanks if it's going to get a finish-- I use a high-solids varnish that doesn't like polished surfaces (and I'd bet a buck nobody could tell the wood was only sanded to 400 or 600 by the time the finish is buffed). I always MM oily woods that will only get some wax (like ebony or lignum).

I'll take the bet

I am still not a MM user. Don't feel the need to, and most people are surprised at the finish I have gotten. I do have some higher (1200 grit) but rarely go over 600.

 

[ctEaglesc]

Originally posted by Paul in OKC
<br />

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

I have had good luck using a small piece of cloth or paper towel to put some friction on the wood to build up some heat (not enough to crack it, which varies wood to wood, and I'd never do this with ebony or snakewood). The heat does good enough in my experience to evaporate the water from the very thin wood on a pen, and it burnishes the surface of the wood nicely.


That being said, I rarely MM my wood blanks if it's going to get a finish-- I use a high-solids varnish that doesn't like polished surfaces (and I'd bet a buck nobody could tell the wood was only sanded to 400 or 600 by the time the finish is buffed). I always MM oily woods that will only get some wax (like ebony or lignum).

I'll take the bet

I am still not a MM user. Don't feel the need to, and most people are surprised at the finish I have gotten. I do have some higher (1200 grit) but rarely go over 600.

To each his own.
A good finish enhances what is underneath it.
A pen sanded through the micromesh grits has a better surface than one left sanded to 600 grit.
AS an analogy
Take some 600 grit and sand clear plexiglass with it.
I already know the results.
I can take MM and sand out those scratches to the point where it is almost clear.

 

[Thumbs]

There ya go! Right on! "To each his own."

We are probably a bit more sensitive to how our finishes appear because we each put alot of ourselves into each of these pens. While I don't make a living from pen making, I do take some pride in my work. (OK, sometimes I even disappoint myself![V]) So while it is an expensive avocation, it is also an intensive one. I have to admit to sometimes saying to myself, enough is enough! That means my personal best may vary from day to day.[] But that said,I think most of us try to do our best at finishing our pens. That may be why this topic is so often discussed here. OK, enough rambling on, what I'm trying to say is that I would not try to say anyone's finish is better or worse than anyone elses other than mine. OK, I will finally have to admit most everybody's finish is better than mine! Happy now?[B)][}]

The happy thing about a finish is that you don't really have to show it to anyone if it doesn't suit you. No one is (normally anyway) standing over your shoulder watching you. If you screw up, toss it and try again! Somebody here wisely said the other day, "Don't experiment on your best blanks!"[]

What was this thread about anyway?[]

 

[ctEaglesc]

Well the title did say a sanding question and the OP was going to buy some MM&gt;
Why do you ask?

 

[Thumbs]

I was just trying to make the point that we sometimes stray a bit off topic in these threads. Sometimes it's worthwhile and informative and sometimes it's not. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong. Usually I am!
[}]

 

[cozee]

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />

Originally posted by Paul in OKC
<br />

Originally posted by ctEaglesc
<br />

Originally posted by redfishsc
<br />

Originally posted by RussFairfield
<br />The secret to "wet sanding" is making sure that whatever you used as a lubricant has had a chance to evaporate out of the wood before putting on a finish.

If you wet sand with water, this can take overnight and sometimes longer if it is a soft or porous wood. Otherwise you will be putting a finish on wet wood, and moisture that is trapped under a finish can cause all kinds of problems.

I have had good luck using a small piece of cloth or paper towel to put some friction on the wood to build up some heat (not enough to crack it, which varies wood to wood, and I'd never do this with ebony or snakewood). The heat does good enough in my experience to evaporate the water from the very thin wood on a pen, and it burnishes the surface of the wood nicely.


That being said, I rarely MM my wood blanks if it's going to get a finish-- I use a high-solids varnish that doesn't like polished surfaces (and I'd bet a buck nobody could tell the wood was only sanded to 400 or 600 by the time the finish is buffed). I always MM oily woods that will only get some wax (like ebony or lignum).

I'll take the bet

I am still not a MM user. Don't feel the need to, and most people are surprised at the finish I have gotten. I do have some higher (1200 grit) but rarely go over 600.

To each his own.
A good finish enhances what is underneath it.
A pen sanded through the micromesh grits has a better surface than one left sanded to 600 grit.
AS an analogy
Take some 600 grit and sand clear plexiglass with it.
I already know the results.
I can take MM and sand out those scratches to the point where it is almost clear.

I like to think outside the box hence why I have yet to find a reason to use MM. I use time proven methods used to sand out and polish automotive finishes. No sanding marks but I do sand out further than 600. In fact, I had posted somewhere a picture, in preparation of turning some acrylics, of some plexiglass I had turned and finished as I do my pens. To say one has to use MM to achieve a flawless finish is a narrow view at best. Especially since the MM grits are downgraded in comparison to regular paper. I thought I have read a few times that MM1200 is equal to 400 or 600 in regular paper. At a somewhat 30-50 percent equality rate, that would put the 15000 grit at somewhere equal to what I finish with at an actual 4000. And the 2000-4000 grits I wet finish with are all foam backed and cheaper than MM.

 

[ctEaglesc]

How often can you reuse those "papers" with excellent results?
There is a difference between cheaper and economical.
I'll stand by my original comment.
Try wqhatever the finest SANDPAPER you are using on a clear piece of plexiglass and see the results.
To each his own teh MM I have found to be the most economical in the long run.

 

[RussFairfield]

I will not defend Micro-Mesh (MM) as being better than sandpaper, because we can get the same results with each of them. But there is a difference in how their grit is designated, and the range of sizes that designation is an average of.

Penturners have become fans of MicroMesh because it a premium abrasive product that is available at all woodworking and pen supply stores and catalogs while the comparable premium sandpapers are not.

Any comparison should always be to the average grit size measured in "Microns", because there is often no direct comparison between them. An example is 12,000MM which has an average grit size of 2-Micon, while 1500-grit sandpaper is 3-Micron, and 2000-grit is 1-Micron.

The killer in making any comparison is what we are comparing the MM with. The micron designation is the AVERAGE particle size on the sheet, and the MM is the average of a narrower distribution of particles than all but the most expensive sandpapers. It's the same as saying that two cities have the same "average" temperature while ignoring that the lowest temperature in one is 45F and the lowest in the other is -20F. There is a considerable difference in the extremes, and that narrower distribution is why MM and premium sandpapers cost more.

Personally, I cannot tell the difference in the surface gloss I get from 12,000MM and 3-M Premium Gold 2000-grit, but I can definitely tell the difference between either of them and a cheaper sandpaper of the same grit.

If we really want to get confused, add the European "P-scale" or the Japanese grit designations into the comparison.

 

[cozee]

Russ, thanks for the grit clarifications. I was aware of the micron sizings but not sure about what was what. And as for availability of any, the premium papers used in the automotive trade are far easier for me to obtain locally. The nearest woodworking shop is an hour away.