Pen Blank Help Please!

[AFTACP]

Hi guys. I'm in the process of turning 10 cigar pens from brown mallee burl. The first blank (as pictured), is giving me trouble. Both ends of the blank that are facing the tailstock have small tearouts right where the bushing meets the blank. The sides of the blank that are facing the headstock are perfectly fine. I tried filling the small gaps with CA.

I have turned brown mallee before in a slimline and it turned out great. I'm thinking this is a technique issue maybe? Just seems to coincidental to me that it's on both ends facing the tailstock. Also, this occurred before I stated using my skew.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[AFTACP]

Another pic added.

 

[Fish30114]

It may be deceiving from the pic, but it looks like that little of chip out could be cleaned up by hitting the blank/tube against the sanding disc. I cant really tell if it would make a difference, but it looks like it would be OK. As to why it's happening, if your wood has even the tiniest tendency to chip, right on the edge at the end of turning is where it will happen!

Good luck!

 

[Dan26]

Try soaking the ends of the blanks with thin CA after squaring them.

 

[ed4copies]

I agree with Dan, but I'd add, "How are you squaring the blanks?" IF you are using a pen mill, this could be tearing out some material, too.

Soak the ends with thin CA, before squaring. Makes squaring more difficult, but less likely to chip out. OR, don't square them, then when you reach this point in turning (nearly the size of the bushings), you can take them off the lathe and sand the ends down to the brass tube level. That part will not be chipped out. THEN add some thin CA to the ends, let set overnight, touch to the sander to re-square and turn to final diameter. This also helps, if you are making a sierra, since the end is rotated against the front end of the pen to operate it. If it is CA reinforced, it is less likely to chip out with use.

Hope this helps,
Ed

 

[NittanyLion]

...what Ed said. Also, it is very important that you are using a sharp skew. A dull tool will cause tear out because you are pushing the wood versus cutting it.

 

[KBs Pensnmore]

Are you cutting towards the tailstock? I found when first starting turning pens, that this was my problem. Something else that might cause this, is insufficient glue at the ends, sometimes its a fault in the wood, I've had this also, as others have said, dip the end in thin CA to rectify the problem.
Kryn

 

[AFTACP]

Great info all.

I am using a carbide barrel trimmer (pen mill) to square the blanks on my drill press. I am turning the blanks from headstock to tailstock, which is why I thought it is possibly a technique issue, since it's occurring at both ends that face the tailstock. I've only turned roughly 75 pens, but have never had this issue before. I'm focusing more on burl woods now, so trying to hammer this down. This blank was not stabilized, but the rest of the burls I have are.

I will definitely go the thin CA route as mentioned.

 

[snyiper]

Could use some shavings/sawdust from turning and a lil ca to put it good as new...

 

[GaryMGg]

One more thought:
Burl grain is multi-directional so it's difficult to not cut against the grain which means your tools have to be as sharp as possible.
As suggested, a razor sharp skew and CA to stabilize the blank should help.

BTW, where were you part of AFTAC? Patrick or somewhere else?

 

[jttheclockman]

Boy I do not know what got into me lately but putting my 2 cents in so many threads is scaring me.

I do not agree with Ed when he says leave the blank longer than the tubes and square it up later (if i understood him and if not my bad) What this does is makes the end of the blank unstable and the bushing does not sit against a flat surface. You need to square the ends before putting on the lathe. Now with some materials such as burls the best way is to sand them flush as opposed to a pen mill that can rip the ends and cause chips. (especially 4 head cutters as opposed to 6 head cutters)

I think your problem is technique. This goes for all pen turning, you need to work the ends of the blank down toward the bushings ahead of the center and whatever tool you use will have some material for it to be supported with as you do this. You do this in steps. Take off the material working toward the tailstock and then toward the headstock in small increments working your way back to the center. Then work the center. You keep doing this until you are at bushing surface. I am sure Ed has some videos somewhere on doing this. Maybe he can supply you with a link.

 

[RKB]

I do it Ed's way. I think it's better than using a barrel trimmer that can tear out a blank end in a heartbeat. Ed's way works for me, especially on non stabilized open grained or burly wood. My 2 cents. :biggrin:
Rod

 

[AFTACP]

Great advice all. I will be implementing this advice into my daily turnings starting tomorrow!

Gary -

I was in the Air Force TACP. I had to look up AFTAC I spent some time training at Hurlburt Field, but never visited Patrick.

 

[ed4copies]

To reply to John: (JT) As a matter of course, the way I suggest is usually the way that is most likely to solve an issue, assuming the turner is not very skilled.

If you have turned hundreds or thousands of pens, you will already have "your way" that works for you. It is designed by you and takes into account all of YOUR skills. And you are unlikely to ask for my advice.

Those who DO ask, usually have many areas that need improvement. So, I attempt to show you a way that is not dependent on strong technique. I still use bushings and a mandrel, but the function of the bushings is mostly to keep the blank the right distance from the mandrel (in other words, the smaller diameter holds my blank where it needs to be). I do not need to and I do not recommend to others that you crank down on your bushings to keep the blank from slipping as you turn. Instead I suggest you sharpen your tool, that way, if the blank WANTS to slip, it can. When you deny it the ability to slip, it will, instead "blow up". You newer guys will learn this, the older guys can easily forget it---it happened so long ago!!

So, do it my way, do it John's way, some day you will do it YOUR way. Most importantly, HAVE FUN!!!! Penturning is a voyage, as you develop more skills, it becomes more enjoyable. Meantime my answers are my attempt to help you avoid "pen blank fatalities"!!!

 

[jcm71]

Nate,
Several points that have not yet been discussed. You said you have turned about 75 pens. Even carbide pen mill get dull eventually. Make sure they are sharp. Check out Capt Eddie's video on youtube.

You don't mention how fast you turn. The faster the better. I turn at 4000RPM (as fast as my Delta goes). I bet there are others who turn faster.

Invest in a mandrel saver and turn only one blank at a time. A shorter longitudinal axis is going to be more stable.

Teach yourself to turn right to left. Practice on scrap. Until you get your technique down, consider reversing your blanks on the mandrel when you get close to "tearout" diameter.

There is nothing wrong with turning to just proud of the bushings and then sanding down. Just keep in mind you'll be sanding your bushings and they'll get smaller.

Consider turning between centers without a mandrel or bushings. Invest in a couple of calipers and use them to turn to the correct diameter. Practice on scrap wood here until you get your technique down.

If in doubt, sharpen your chisels.

Like Ed said, have fun.

Good luck.

John

 

[AFTACP]

I'm turning at 1600 rpm's. My next available speeds are 2200 and 3200 rpm's. Think I should change to turning at a higher speed?

I need to practice more of the right to left turning. When I've tried it in the past it has seemed unorthodox and did not produce great results, I'm sure due to lack of practice.

Sanding before reaching the bushings diameter is a temporary solution I may try. I just bought some 60 and 80 grit sandpaper, so I'll give it a whirl.

Thanks!

 

[jcm71]

I'm turning at 1600 rpm's. My next available speeds are 2200 and 3200 rpm's. Think I should change to turning at a higher speed?

I need to practice more of the right to left turning. When I've tried it in the past it has seemed unorthodox and did not produce great results, I'm sure due to lack of practice.

Sanding before reaching the bushings diameter is a temporary solution I may try. I just bought some 60 and 80 grit sandpaper, so I'll give it a whirl.

Thanks!

By all means increase up to 3200. Light touch and sharp chisels are a must. Don't forget eye protection. Forget about the 60 and 80 grit sandpaper. Way too coarse. They'll leave concentric sanding marks that will be next to impossible to get out. Start at 150 grit or 180. A lot of turners on this site use Mirca Abranet. Barring that, buy one of those pen sanding packs and work through the grits. Here's a link to Exotics. Exotic Blanks :: Tools, Glues & Finishing :: Finishing Supplies :: Abrasive Rolls - 5 Rolls for Sanding Other vendors have them as well.

 

[jttheclockman]

To reply to John: (JT) As a matter of course, the way I suggest is usually the way that is most likely to solve an issue, assuming the turner is not very skilled.

If you have turned hundreds or thousands of pens, you will already have "your way" that works for you. It is designed by you and takes into account all of YOUR skills. And you are unlikely to ask for my advice.

Those who DO ask, usually have many areas that need improvement. So, I attempt to show you a way that is not dependent on strong technique. I still use bushings and a mandrel, but the function of the bushings is mostly to keep the blank the right distance from the mandrel (in other words, the smaller diameter holds my blank where it needs to be). I do not need to and I do not recommend to others that you crank down on your bushings to keep the blank from slipping as you turn. Instead I suggest you sharpen your tool, that way, if the blank WANTS to slip, it can. When you deny it the ability to slip, it will, instead "blow up". You newer guys will learn this, the older guys can easily forget it---it happened so long ago!!

So, do it my way, do it John's way, some day you will do it YOUR way. Most importantly, HAVE FUN!!!! Penturning is a voyage, as you develop more skills, it becomes more enjoyable. Meantime my answers are my attempt to help you avoid "pen blank fatalities"!!!

Well Ed in all my years of turning pens I have never heard of this approach of yours. Hey if it works for others by all means give it a go. To me learning good technique from the on-start is what will make a better turner. Sharp tools light touch and good technique will get the job done. Some blanks are just more stubborn than others.

To me looking at the photos of what to OP shown the problem started with the mill. It could have fractured the blank and it shows up when it is turned down. Again just my opinion.

 

[ed4copies]

John,

I welcome your opinion!! Please continue to provide input!!

Because I now answer several dozen questions per week on the telephone, I have become aware of the "downside" of the internet!! When teaching in person, you SEE everything the student is doing, so you can approach the "big picture" and correct.

Working on the telephone, you can ask questions about other aspects of the callers' approach and get closer to "big picture".

When you see a question on the internet, the "poster" is posting about a specific symptom---it is the "answerer" who needs to guess what is causing the symptom.

In this case, we are focusing on the mill----we COULD be correct. On the other hand, the blank could have been milled perfectly and the scraper action of the carbide tool could have "caught" as the turner tried to avoid scraping his bushing. Was the carbide round, radiused or square? If square, it is quite possible to catch a corner
and "dig in". At low rpm, that would look much like what we are seeing.

So, TO ME!! this is all "blind man's bluff". We hope to give GOOD advice. So, if I advise one thing and you advise another---maybe one of us gives him something that will work!!

Good to see you on the forum, please take a more active role in posting--you have good information, derived from years of practice! Two heads are always better than one---IAP gives us the chance to get a variety of approaches, that is one of the strengths of a forum.

Happy 2015!!!

 

[jttheclockman]

John,

I welcome your opinion!! Please continue to provide input!!

Because I now answer several dozen questions per week on the telephone, I have become aware of the "downside" of the internet!! When teaching in person, you SEE everything the student is doing, so you can approach the "big picture" and correct.

Working on the telephone, you can ask questions about other aspects of the callers' approach and get closer to "big picture".

When you see a question on the internet, the "poster" is posting about a specific symptom---it is the "answerer" who needs to guess what is causing the symptom.

In this case, we are focusing on the mill----we COULD be correct. On the other hand, the blank could have been milled perfectly and the scraper action of the carbide tool could have "caught" as the turner tried to avoid scraping his bushing. Was the carbide round, radiused or square? If square, it is quite possible to catch a corner
and "dig in". At low rpm, that would look much like what we are seeing.

So, TO ME!! this is all "blind man's bluff". We hope to give GOOD advice. So, if I advise one thing and you advise another---maybe one of us gives him something that will work!!

Good to see you on the forum, please take a more active role in posting--you have good information, derived from years of practice! Two heads are always better than one---IAP gives us the chance to get a variety of approaches, that is one of the strengths of a forum.

Happy 2015!!!

Ed I agree with your whole take on answering questions. You are 100000% correct and that is why I usually state for the OP to give more info because it is so hard to give exact answers as to why something happens. It may never happen again and the OP does absolutely nothing different again. This could happen to the most experienced woodworker too. I am sure there are many people who have had it happen to them. Hopefully something clicks for him and he is a better pen maker for it.

As far as me sticking around well that is hit or miss. I was bored and happen to jump in on a few questions. I am chomping at the bit to get back into the shop. My health issues have left me in limbo. Hopefully the New Year will be a good one for us all.

 

[Displaced Canadian]

I've also found that sometimes carbide can be a bit aggressive on some materiel. I cut the blank close to size with the saw then thin CA, Barrel trim very close to size and thin CA one more time.

 

[AFTACP]

The finished pen. I was able to fix the chip out near the nib. Turned out pretty well I think. Thanks for all the help!

 

[wyone]

I used to use a carbide trimmer all the time.. and still do on slimlines from time to time. I have gotten to using a sanding technique lately and that seems better. Plus SHARP SKEW has made a huge difference in my success. I think my mistakes, and my learning and confidence has helped me reduce my failure rate by a huge amount