Pen assembly question?

[RKB]

Hi, still learning about pen assembly and was wondering if i should be using loctite in barrels when i am putting cigar and sierra pens together? It doesn't seem to me that the pen should be able to be pulled apart, there is a threaded end that screws out for refill replacement. I have been using loctite on the press in pieces to keep them in, sometimes they are a little loose fitting. Just wondering. Thanks.
Rod

 

[ed4copies]

Hi Rod!

Welcome to IAP!!

Although your question is simple, it opens a debate about the underlying philosophy of the penmaker. For decades we have been making pens with the "plan" of being able to repair them, so disassembly was a consideration.

IN FACT, this leads to some problems. Notably the sierra transmission being able to be "relocated" by the end user, resulting in the pen no longer able to be "screwed together".

An additional problem I have seen OFTEN is the end of a rollerball (sometimes nib, usually finial) becoming a loose fit and "popping off" the body of the pen.

These problems could both be virtually eliminated by adding a little loctite to the components when assembling.

So, I would recommend making your pens to AVOID the NEED for repairs----use Loctite.

(CA glue can affect the plating, so I don't suggest using it to secure parts)

Others WILL differ with this opinion.

That's one of the advantages of IAP----healthy debate!!

Ed

 

[Dan Masshardt]

Hi, still learning about pen assembly and was wondering if i should be using loctite in barrels when i am putting cigar and sierra pens together? It doesn't seem to me that the pen should be able to be pulled apart, there is a threaded end that screws out for refill replacement. I have been using loctite on the press in pieces to keep them in, sometimes they are a little loose fitting. Just wondering. Thanks. Rod

These two need to be pulled apart for replacing ink - in one place at least I don't use loctite etc unless it is necessary Others do

 

[Jim Burr]

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/how-possible-123017/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/psi-sculptured-pen-kits-fit-issues-122797/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/loc-tite-gel-121067/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/bolt-action-question-121352/

 

[RKB]

Thank you for your replys.

 

[sbell111]

http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/how-possible-123017/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/psi-sculptured-pen-kits-fit-issues-122797/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/loc-tite-gel-121067/
http://www.penturners.org/forum/f14/bolt-action-question-121352/

Why do you keep doing this?

 

[Smitty37]

Hi, still learning about pen assembly and was wondering if i should be using loctite in barrels when i am putting cigar and sierra pens together? It doesn't seem to me that the pen should be able to be pulled apart, there is a threaded end that screws out for refill replacement. I have been using loctite on the press in pieces to keep them in, sometimes they are a little loose fitting. Just wondering. Thanks. Rod

These two need to be pulled apart for replacing ink - in one place at least I don't use loctite etc unless it is necessary Others do

Neither has to be pulled apart to replace the refill, on both the tip end unscrews for refill replacement.

That being said - I rarely find a part that needs to be glued in so I seldom do it myself but I have had a couple of pens that did pull apart after use and had to be glued when reassembled.

 

[Smitty37]

Hi Rod!

Welcome to IAP!!

Although your question is simple, it opens a debate about the underlying philosophy of the penmaker. For decades we have been making pens with the "plan" of being able to repair them, so disassembly was a consideration.

IN FACT, this leads to some problems. Notably the sierra transmission being able to be "relocated" by the end user, resulting in the pen no longer able to be "screwed together".

An additional problem I have seen OFTEN is the end of a rollerball (sometimes nib, usually finial) becoming a loose fit and "popping off" the body of the pen.

These problems could both be virtually eliminated by adding a little loctite to the components when assembling.

So, I would recommend making your pens to AVOID the NEED for repairs----use Loctite.

(CA glue can affect the plating, so I don't suggest using it to secure parts)

Others WILL differ with this opinion.

That's one of the advantages of IAP----healthy debate!!

Ed

You and I agree here Ed ... If something is designed for "ease of repair" it's a pretty safe bet that it will need a repair sooner or later. Quality conscienceness begins with "how can I make it so that it never breaks?"

 

[ed4copies]

Not too surprisingly, when we "did" our last craft show in 2010, the customers did NOT buy out all my inventory. So, I now have a couple hundred pens on display in our "office annex". Pretty regularly I am taking a pen or two from there to answer a question. It is not unusual to pick up a pen and find the coupler is loose.

Consider that both rollerballs and, to a lesser extent, ballpoints have a spring that is constantly exerting pressure on the two ends of the body of the pen. Should it surprise us when one of those couplers is loosened over a period of years? I really don't think so.

I did not use adhesive when I was making pens. If I were making them today, I would.

YMMV,
Ed

 

[sbell111]

Consider that both rollerballs and, to a lesser extent, ballpoints have a spring that is constantly exerting pressure on the two ends of the body of the pen. Should it surprise us when one of those couplers is loosened over a period of years? I really don't think so.

Your post made a lot of sense to me when I first read it. However, as I thought about it, I'm not sure that I can agree with your logic.

I don't believe that a spring that cannot push out a coupler today is ever going to apply enough force to push that coupler out. Further, if the spring were able to do so, what you would find on your shelf is not a pen with a loose coupler. You would find a pen with a coupler that had been pushed out of the tube.

An analogy would be if I went into my garage and attached a strong bungie to the wall. I then stretched the bungie and attached the other end to my car. The bungie isn't strong enough to move my car, so nothing happens. I measure the distance between the wall and my car. Once a week, I measure that distance. It never changes because the bungie never becomes strong enough to move the car. In fact, the amount of force that the bungie applies actually decreases over time because the bungie wears out.

The same thing will happen to the spring in your pen. If the spring wasn't strong enough to move the coupler when you made the pen, it is never going to get strong enough to move it.

Here's another theory as to why you are finding loose couplers on those old pens: They were always loose.

 

[ed4copies]

If every pen I ever made was loose, I can assure you my customers would have been back to point it out. I did this for 15 years.

There is no point in debating, you have a theory as do I. Let each penmaker decide which is the more likely scenario and make their pens accordingly.

 

[skiprat]

If your pen falls apart, then send the crap back.
The quality of the kits will never get better if nobody complains and everyone accepts that they need to be 'fixed' and buy some Loc-tite before they can be used.
Refill spring pushing the parts apart??? Yeah right!!

 

[Smitty37]

Consider that both rollerballs and, to a lesser extent, ballpoints have a spring that is constantly exerting pressure on the two ends of the body of the pen. Should it surprise us when one of those couplers is loosened over a period of years? I really don't think so.

Your post made a lot of sense to me when I first read it. However, as I thought about it, I'm not sure that I can agree with your logic.

I don't believe that a spring that cannot push out a coupler today is ever going to apply enough force to push that coupler out. Further, if the spring were able to do so, what you would find on your shelf is not a pen with a loose coupler. You would find a pen with a coupler that had been pushed out of the tube.

An analogy would be if I went into my garage and attached a strong bungie to the wall. I then stretched the bungie and attached the other end to my car. The bungie isn't strong enough to move my car, so nothing happens. I measure the distance between the wall and my car. Once a week, I measure that distance. It never changes because the bungie never becomes strong enough to move the car. In fact, the amount of force that the bungie applies actually decreases over time because the bungie wears out.

The same thing will happen to the spring in your pen. If the spring wasn't strong enough to move the coupler when you made the pen, it is never going to get strong enough to move it.

Here's another theory as to why you are finding loose couplers on those old pens: They were always loose.

Steve, I don't think that computes,in either case. First the spring is probably not long enough nor the change sudden enough to "pop" the end cap. Second, if they were always loose it would be obvious to both the maker and the buyer.

The car with a bungie cord there is too much difference between the weight of the car and the strength of the Bungie cord for that to be a valid comparison. The bungie cord can probably never move the car.

We actually are talking about something that is fairly light and a spring that is strong enough to move it. While the pressure fit is tight enough to hold solid when first applied without wobble or pop out over time steady pressure can be enough to move it. Was it always loose enough for that to happen, yes but time figures into the equation.

 

[sbell111]

If every pen I ever made was loose, I can assure you my customers would have been back to point it out. I did this for 15 years.

There is no point in debating, you have a theory as do I. Let each penmaker decide which is the more likely scenario and make their pens accordingly.

If your springs have been able to work loose your couplers, you would have those same customers pointing out the problem.

 

[sbell111]

Consider that both rollerballs and, to a lesser extent, ballpoints have a spring that is constantly exerting pressure on the two ends of the body of the pen. Should it surprise us when one of those couplers is loosened over a period of years? I really don't think so.

Your post made a lot of sense to me when I first read it. However, as I thought about it, I'm not sure that I can agree with your logic.

I don't believe that a spring that cannot push out a coupler today is ever going to apply enough force to push that coupler out. Further, if the spring were able to do so, what you would find on your shelf is not a pen with a loose coupler. You would find a pen with a coupler that had been pushed out of the tube.

An analogy would be if I went into my garage and attached a strong bungie to the wall. I then stretched the bungie and attached the other end to my car. The bungie isn't strong enough to move my car, so nothing happens. I measure the distance between the wall and my car. Once a week, I measure that distance. It never changes because the bungie never becomes strong enough to move the car. In fact, the amount of force that the bungie applies actually decreases over time because the bungie wears out.

The same thing will happen to the spring in your pen. If the spring wasn't strong enough to move the coupler when you made the pen, it is never going to get strong enough to move it.

Here's another theory as to why you are finding loose couplers on those old pens: They were always loose.

Steve, I don't think that computes,in either case. First the spring is probably not long enough nor the change sudden enough to "pop" the end cap. Second, if they were always loose it would be obvious to both the maker and the buyer.

The car with a bungie cord there is too much difference between the weight of the car and the strength of the Bungie cord for that to be a valid comparison. The bungie cord can probably never move the car.

We actually are talking about something that is fairly light and a spring that is strong enough to move it. While the pressure fit is tight enough to hold solid when first applied without wobble or pop out over time steady pressure can be enough to move it. Was it always loose enough for that to happen, yes but time figures into the equation.

You are forgetting an important part of what he posted. He isn't saying that the springs ever actually moved the couplers. He is saying that the springs somehow loosened the couplers while leaving them in place; that the springs bent the tubes outward without moving the fittings from their positions.

If the springs were strong enough to move the couplers, the couplers would be pushed from their positions, but the tubes would be relatively unchanged. Neither of these things actually happened in his scenario, however.

Therefore, it is my opinion that the unlikely scenario of the springs loosening the tubes without pushing out the couplers is not what happened. We are left with the couplers being as tight as they ever were, but the issue simply not previously identified. As always, the simplest explanation tends to be the best one.

 

[sbell111]

I wonder who among has has never been at a show when they have realized that one of their pens has a loose coupler. It has certainly happened to me and it doesn't mean that the springs somehow bent my tubes. It means that I did it when I made the pen and didn't notice the problem. The pen made it through QC without my noticing the problem. For this reason, I keep a tube of locktite in the show gear.

 

[Smitty37]

I wonder who among has has never been at a show when they have realized that one of their pens has a loose coupler. It has certainly happened to me and it doesn't mean that the springs somehow bent my tubes. It means that I did it when I made the pen and didn't notice the problem. The pen made it through QC without my noticing the problem. For this reason, I keep a tube of locktite in the show gear.

Me for one:biggrin:

Ref your last post, maybe we read his post differently. I took it to mean that if he left the pen a little while longer he would have found the "wobbling" part all the way out.

I know from experience assembling that on certain kits until a tip has been pressed in a certain amount you can remove it by fingers but when it is fully seated you can't and it will wobble.

I've also had some that were just too loose and would push out when you tried to insert the refill. So what you said probably does apply in some cases. But I would really hesitate to think all cases.